Rega Elicit-R Soundstage?

[YiannisK]

Hello all

Very new forum member here although I have been followring the forums for quite a while. I would be grateful for some feedback / impressions from people who own or have auditioned the Rega Elicit-R. In particular, what do you think of the amplifier soundstage (width and depth)? A number of reviews indicate that it is narrow and 'attacking'. Did you experience / confirm this? If so, did you perceive it as a negative and to what extent?

I actually own the Elicit-R for the past month. I love the amplifier for many reasons but I am as yet undecided about the soundstage. There are days when I listen in a very critical way and I am guilty of bias (I take too many reviews seriously when I should probably not). During those days I actually perceive the soundstage as narrow (does not extend beyond the speakers). Other days I am just not thinking about it at all. Prior to the Elicit-R I had the Arcam A19 which felt to me as presenting a wider soundstage. Then again, I may have been biased by the reviews.

I would appreciate any experiences you may have on this

Many thanks

 

[plastic penguin]

I'm also a newcomer. Or should say second coming.

All hi-fi, to get the best from them, is about synergy. Arcam generally love MA speakers. Having heard the Elicit-R with PMC Twenty 23 speakers the soundstage was expansive, highly detailed.

However, I did comment on this forum about the similarities between the Rega and my Leema. They both sound involved, if ever so slightly on the lean side. But this is in comparison to Audio Analogue, Roksan Caspian and Naim XS models.

Personally speaking I would point towards your speakers. Good as they are, I think more benefit could be had by using Rega RS3 or PMC older 'i' speakers, which I use with the Leema.

 

[CnoEvil]

That leads to an interesting question - which bit of the chain is most responsible for the soundstage ie. The recording / Source / Amp / Speakers / Speaker placement.

Pesonally, I think it is in the recording and is preserved (or not) by the rest of the system. I suspect speakers and their placement, in relation to the sitting position, has more impact than the amp...but I'm happy to be proved wrong.

 

[SteveR750]

In all honesty, I've never heard this mythical "soundstage" with any music reproduction system. Yes, there's a sense of presence, and occasionally sounds appear to come from beyond the width of the speakers, but it's hardly 3D, and nothing like a good 3D film experience, which let's be honest, isn't that great either. I've also never heard a sound that appears to be emanating from a source in front of the speakers, only ever behind. Personally, it's the least critical part of assessing a system, if only because stereo is so fundamentally constrained. However, I do think that a realistic surround-sound effect would be far more entertaining and satisfying than any tonal response characteristics.

 

[jonathanRD]

That leads to an interesting question - which bit of the chain is most responsible for the soundstage ie. The recording / Source / Amp / Speakers / Speaker placement.

Pesonally, I think it is in the recording and is preserved (or not) by the rest of the system. I suspect speakers and their placement, in relation to the sitting position, has more impact than the amp...but I'm happy to be proved wrong.

I agree - this was the first thing that crossed my mind when I read the first post. Soundstage can come and go depending on the recording, and speaker placement I've found also makes a difference. I'm almost scared to move my speakers again just in case I loose the soundstage I have at present. Have you tried experimenting with speaker placement?

 

[CnoEvil]

There is, imo, some interesting insight regarding Soundstage and Imaging, in this thread:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=499189

 

[YiannisK]

Thank you for the link, really informative and extensive. It is the left - right space that I feel different between the A19 and Rega Elicit-R which replaced it. Everything else has remained the same (speakers, source, speaker position) so in this sense we can consider a single variable change (amplifier). I also totally agree that my speakers need upgrading (in the plans as soon as funds allow) but considering that everything remains the same except for the amplier, can one conclude that the difference in perceived sound persentation (same ears) is caused by the different amplifier?

There is, imo, some interesting insight regarding Soundstage and Imaging, in this thread:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=499189

 

[YiannisK]

Steve, I would love it if music releases were mastered for multi channel audio. That would be awesome. Surround sound music would be amazing then.

In all honesty, I've never heard this mythical "soundstage" with any music reproduction system. Yes, there's a sense of presence, and occasionally sounds appear to come from beyond the width of the speakers, but it's hardly 3D, and nothing like a good 3D film experience, which let's be honest, isn't that great either. I've also never heard a sound that appears to be emanating from a source in front of the speakers, only ever behind. Personally, it's the least critical part of assessing a system, if only because stereo is so fundamentally constrained. However, I do think that a realistic surround-sound effect would be far more entertaining and satisfying than any tonal response characteristics.

 

[YiannisK]

Hello Pastic Penguin

PCM Twenty 23 then minght be a good match for the Rega. I am compiling a short list for speakers to audition later this year so I greatly appreciate the advice. Regarding the Elicit-R lean character, I had a strange personal experience. Monitor Audio speakers have a reputation for being bright (some disagree of course). My personal experience with the RX1s + Arcam A19 was that they were perfect but not at high volume. They would then sound bright in my living room. I went to audition the Elicit-R with the RX1s (aiming to upgrade them later) expecting them to sound even brighter (see reviews of the Elicit-R). To my surprise, they sounded OK(ish). I am going to upgrade them anyway so I want them to sound ok for the time being. Then I ordered the Elicit-R and took it home. First week... sound was super warm. Second week.. unbearably bright. Third week... just right. Fourth week... sometimes bright, sometimes not.

As I am planning to upgrade the speakers I don't mind all this but as my brain adjusts to the amp I find it not as bright as some reviews suggest.

In any case, PMCs are in the short list of speakers to audition

Many thanks

I'm also a newcomer. Or should say second coming.

All hi-fi, to get the best from them, is about synergy. Arcam generally love MA speakers. Having heard the Elicit-R with PMC Twenty 23 speakers the soundstage was expansive, highly detailed.

However, I did comment on this forum about the similarities between the Rega and my Leema. They both sound involved, if ever so slightly on the lean side. But this is in comparison to Audio Analogue, Roksan Caspian and Naim XS models.

Personally speaking I would point towards your speakers. Good as they are, I think more benefit could be had by using Rega RS3 or PMC older 'i' speakers, which I use with the Leema.

 

[iQ Speakers]

Soundstage. Yep the recording had to have it engineered into it, the speakers have to be precisely matched and good enough to reproduce it, and the amp has to have enough control in order for the speakers to present it. Get all that right, with correct speaker position and you will get 3D soundstage not on all tracks but if it's mastered in you will get it.

 

[Laurens_B]

There is no reason why an amplifier would have influence on a "soundstage". The perception of the placement of sounds is created by the radiation pattern of the drivers and the reflections in the room. In other words, play with your speaker placement.

 

[Leeps]

I can't comment on the Elicit, but I can comment on my experience with two vastly different soundstages from a recent speaker change.

My former Radius R270HD floorstanders (fairly petite ones that share a tweeter and similarly designed midrange driver to your RX1's, albeit in a very differently shaped cabinet) had an exceptionally narrow and pointed soundstage, both in direct 2.0 and 5.1 flavours. It's one of the reasons I used to use the Extended Stereo setting on my AVR, which opened up the soundstage with 2.0 material.

Although the R270HD's constrained the soundstage, its trade-off was exceptional steering in multi-channel use. They offered quite a wow factor in this respect.

However, my recently acquired MA GX50's have very surprisingly wide room-filling soundstage. Surprising because they're such small speakers: sometimes the soundstage is so big that I do a double-check to make sure I am actually playing it in straight 2.0 mode and not in 5.1 extended stereo. I'm fooled into thinking that music is emanating from my centre speaker, when it's not!

In this respect I don't think I could have had two more different speakers (than my old R270HD's), which is interesting considering they're made by the same company. This is through exactly the same system I had before: only the speakers have changed. The GX50's are so good at this that it's the first time that I've really been conscious of soundstage in my system. Both my previous generations of speakers just happened not to excel in this area.

The GX50's don't quite have the same degree of bite and excitement, although in reality as my amp is pretty forward in character, it's balanced out the system pretty well.

So my point is that in my own recent experience, speakers have a very large influence on soundstage. Can I ask, what are your main musical sources? I only ask because in recent tests, I found that one downside of Spotify was a tendency to constrict the soundstage compared to other sources playing the same material.

 

[YiannisK]

Thank you for sharing your experiences. I mainly listen to FLAC (streamed over sonos connect) as well as Apple lossless. I am not a fan of spotify actually.

 

[YiannisK]

From a technical standpoint I totally agree. This is why I am considering psychoacoustics as a potential explanation to why I perceive differences in the music presenation when the only thing changed is the amp. Unless if the Rega Elicit-R drives the speakers differently and so they perform differently on the same position. This would support your suggestion regarding changing the speaker placement. Might have to experiment as you suggest...

There is no reason why an amplifier would have influence on a "soundstage". The perception of the placement of sounds is created by the radiation pattern of the drivers and the reflections in the room. In other words, play with your speaker placement.

 

[iQ Speakers]

Whilst I agree speakers have largest influence on soundstage without being controlled properly they will not properly produce it.

 

[CnoEvil]

...but considering that everything remains the same except for the amplier, can one conclude that the difference in perceived sound persentation (same ears) is caused by the different amplifier?

IMO. Though it may seem counter-intuitive, I don't think you can necessarily conclude that the amp has worse soundstaging (though it has produced differences). My reasoning is that different amps may subtly change the way a speaker performs, which can mean a small positional change (of the speakers) is required to allow for this, thus restoring the soundstage.

 

[iQ Speakers]

Whilst I agree speakers have largest influence on soundstage without being controlled properly they will not properly produce it.

 

[rainsoothe]

In all honesty, I've never heard this mythical "soundstage" with any music reproduction system. Yes, there's a sense of presence, and occasionally sounds appear to come from beyond the width of the speakers, but it's hardly 3D, and nothing like a good 3D film experience, which let's be honest, isn't that great either. I've also never heard a sound that appears to be emanating from a source in front of the speakers, only ever behind. Personally, it's the least critical part of assessing a system, if only because stereo is so fundamentally constrained. However, I do think that a realistic surround-sound effect would be far more entertaining and satisfying than any tonal response characteristics.

There is no reason why an amplifier would have influence on a "soundstage". The perception of the placement of sounds is created by the radiation pattern of the drivers and the reflections in the room. In other words, play with your speaker placement

You guys should listen to class A amplification - 1 hit of Sugden Masterclass + some ProAc or similarly skilled speakers will change your perception about soundstage Also, on every occasion I listened to the XTZ 93.23, the speakers completely vanished (and I'm not exagerating at all). You couldn't tell that the source of the sound was so small. They were positioned close to 4 other pairs of speakers, and you could've guessed that the sound was coming from either of them.

When I made the switch from Supernait 2 with Martin Logans to Arcam A19 with Focals, the soundstage got much deeper, wider and more focused. The Naim strengths lied elsewhere. At least that's how I percieved the change. And again, when I auditioned, I wanted to take a Creek 50A or Nait 5si home, the Arcam won me over with sound - it wasn't a review that told me about the soundstage. At least this is my experience.

 

[CnoEvil]

You guys should listen to class A amplification - 1 hit of Sugden Masterclass + some ProAc or similarly skilled speakers will change your perception about soundstage

*good*

 

[Covenanter]

I know what a soundstage is- it's the aural image that you "see" most clearly when you close your eyes.

Can an amplifier change it? Well yes it can if it distorts the signal so as to change the ratio of the signals from the two speakers or it distorts the signal so that incorrect levels are presented to the speakers. Is either of those likely with modern amplifier design? No it is very unlikely. Pretty much all modern amplifiers have distortion levels well below anything humans can hear and that includes the differences between Class A and Class B. Soit seems very unlikely that an amplifier is going to affect the soundstage.

So what does affect soundstage? First and foremost it's the recording. In classical recordings it comes down to the placement of the instruments and that is particularly noticeable in pieces such as piano concertos where in bad recordings the piano is too loud which pushes it forward or too soft which pushes it backwards. Secondly it's the speaker / room combination and the geometry to the listening position. There are so many variables in that area that you can spend hours and days getting it right.

So IMO to get a good soundstage you should (a) buy good recordings and (b) experiment with your speakers until you are happy. As for the amplifier, as long as it is powerful enough to drive the speakers and is a modern design the I very much doubt it will have any effect at all.

Chris

 

[Gazzip]

In all honesty, I've never heard this mythical "soundstage" with any music reproduction system. Yes, there's a sense of presence, and occasionally sounds appear to come from beyond the width of the speakers, but it's hardly 3D, and nothing like a good 3D film experience, which let's be honest, isn't that great either. I've also never heard a sound that appears to be emanating from a source in front of the speakers, only ever behind. Personally, it's the least critical part of assessing a system, if only because stereo is so fundamentally constrained. However, I do think that a realistic surround-sound effect would be far more entertaining and satisfying than any tonal response characteristics.

You need to come and listen to my system Steve.

 

[SteveR750]

Good link Cno, and I think personally that imagery is more important, for studio mixed music. I've dabbled with home recording, and stereo positioning, adding ambience; it's easy to add a sense of room depth, but ultimately it's all artificial. I'm convinced the only true way to capture a realistic sound stage is an acoustic crossed pair, and nothing else.

 

[YiannisK]

Thank you all for the great discussion so far. I really appreciate the ideas / feedback. I understand that Plastic Penguin has heard the Elicit-R as mentioned early on. Has anyone else had any experience with it? Anyone heard it? If so it would be great to hear from you

There is certainly an ongoing debate about amplifier differences (or not) and I am very open minded about the topic. I remember auditioning 3 amplifiers a while back: Naim XS2, Rega Elicit-R (which I bought) and Arcam A39. They were all fed by a Naim Dac V1 driving Monitor Audio S1 (specifically requested by me so that I could simulate my own RX1s). My ears/brain told me:

- Naim XS2: Thick yet analytical / detailed bass, upfront vocals, strong rhythmic everything (distinct)

- Rega Elicit-R As above but slightly less detailed bass, tiny bit more hazy and so it felt a bit more relaxing. Vocals clear but not as prominent as the Naim. Did not find it bright at all.

- Arcam A39. Surprisingly harsh sounding especially the bass (started and stopped so suddenly it was almost like a click as opposed to a full warm bass tone). I could not relax with the music at all.

Surprisingly I did not feel soundstage differences at the time ( probably not listening carefully I guess). Despite all this, I do not trust my ears/brain. I do not necessarily and unquestionably accept that what I think I heard was actually there. All the above amps have flat frequency response, super low THD, Super SNR. Technically speaking they sound the same and yet... Psychoacoustics, mood, mojo... who knows.

Perhaps the Naim is the one that most people agree (?) that it sounds different...

 

[CnoEvil]

Good link Cno, and I think personally that imagery is more important, for studio mixed music. I've dabbled with home recording, and stereo positioning, adding ambience; it's easy to add a sense of room depth, but ultimately it's all artificial. I'm convinced the only true way to capture a realistic sound stage is an acoustic crossed pair, and nothing else.

I strongly suspect that simple is best, for realisitic Soundstage....some of those 1950s Jazz recordings are stunning.

 

[Laurens_B]

Thank you all for the great discussion so far. I really appreciate the ideas / feedback. I understand that Plastic Penguin has heard the Elicit-R as mentioned early on. Has anyone else had any experience with it? Anyone heard it? If so it would be great to hear from you

There is certainly an ongoing debate about amplifier differences (or not) and I am very open minded about the topic. I remember auditioning 3 amplifiers a while back: Naim XS2, Rega Elicit-R (which I bought) and Arcam A39. They were all fed by a Naim Dac V1 driving Monitor Audio S1 (specifically requested by me so that I could simulate my own RX1s). My ears/brain told me:

- Naim XS2: Thick yet analytical / detailed bass, upfront vocals, strong rhythmic everything (distinct)

- Rega Elicit-R As above but slightly less detailed bass, tiny bit more hazy and so it felt a bit more relaxing. Vocals clear but not as prominent as the Naim. Did not find it bright at all.

- Arcam A39. Surprisingly harsh sounding especially the bass (started and stopped so suddenly it was almost like a click as opposed to a full warm bass tone). I could not relax with the music at all.

Surprisingly I did not feel soundstage differences at the time ( probably not listening carefully I guess). Despite all this, I do not trust my ears/brain. I do not necessarily and unquestionably accept that what I think I heard was actually there. All the above amps have flat frequency response, super low THD, Super SNR. Technically speaking they sound the same and yet... Psychoacoustics, mood, mojo... who knows.

Perhaps the Naim is the one that most people agree (?) that it sounds different...

If you are not sure whether the differences are really there (I think there is no audible difference), try to do a blind test if possible. Maybe bring a friend to a dealer who can do the switching for you without you knowing which is which. This might help you decide on what is best for you.