Rega Elicit R - Happy

[Vladimir]

What a load of rubbish!!. True, toroids are more efficient but to say that they 'chuck out' more current than a laminate for a given Va rating is just plain wrong. A 500Va transformer is what it is whether laminate or toroid. Laws of physics n all that. :wall:

Ugh! Thats not what I meant, it came out stupid like that. :wall:

- Electrical Efficiency

There are two important reasons why a toroidal transformer is more efficient than the stacked E/I lamination type. One is that the high quality grain oriented steel is utilized at close to 100% in all areas of the core. As a result, the core may operate at 15-16 kilogauss versus 12 to 14 kilogauss in the E/I design. There are no air gaps in the core, which means a no-load current draw of about 10% of that of a stacked lamination construction. The other reason is that the windings are distributed over the entire core circumference which reduces the mean length of copper wire per turn in comparison with the E/I transformer, the windings on which are located only on parts of its steel core. Accordingly, a toroidal design requires less steel and copper wire with less core and copper losses resulting in energy savings.

- Voltage Regulation

The voltage drop under load (regulation) is much lower than that of a conventional transformer. Increasing the core size can further reduce voltage drop.

Source

 

[kikiso]

For what it's worth, I am a happy owner of an Elicit-R. It is the second one as the first had to be replaced when the right channel went wrong, but the one I have has been great, silent, the only noise coming from a nearby plasma telly when using the phono input and the volume very high. Given that Steve has not had this noise from his previous amps, it proves that there is not a major issue with his mains and hopefully the next amp will be fine.

I do agree that the amp sounds superb and understand why he would not want to go to another brand.

 

[BigH]

For what it's worth, I am a happy owner of an Elicit-R. It is the second one as the first had to be replaced when the right channel went wrong, but the one I have has been great, silent, the only noise coming from a nearby plasma telly when using the phono input and the volume very high. Given that Steve has not had this noise from his previous amps, it proves that there is not a major issue with his mains and hopefully the next amp will be fine.

I do agree that the amp sounds superb and understand why he would not want to go to another brand.

Was it yours that had the over-heating problem or was that someone else?

 

[stevienut]

Hi Steve ur making right decision keeping Elicit R in my opinion,mine has no hum and no other problems,sounds great and Rega customer support is second to none,i remember couple years ago i broke power button on my Mira3 when having a look insider then didnt fit case back on properly, rega fixed for free and paid to have couriered back to me at no charge for my stupidity,Mira 3 was years out of warranty i was able to phone direct to Rega and had amp back in 7 days so dont wory about problems down the line if my experiance is anything to go by,i do live in new house with good electric and have always used tacima mains filter which no doubt helps,as you know Elicit R sounds fantastic and looks amazing with bags of power,wonder if Rega have any plans to release some new power amps with new pre amp,they dont have any in there range as of now,exon 3 are discontinued,maybe Paul D can provide us with some info regarding replacement of exon 3 in future.

 

[NHL]

For what it's worth, I am a happy owner of an Elicit-R. It is the second one as the first had to be replaced when the right channel went wrong, but the one I have has been great, silent, the only noise coming from a nearby plasma telly when using the phono input and the volume very high. Given that Steve has not had this noise from his previous amps, it proves that there is not a major issue with his mains and hopefully the next amp will be fine.

I do agree that the amp sounds superb and understand why he would not want to go to another brand.

or it proves that the other amps contain some internal filtering. Naim still contains thumps at power on, like most amps from the 70's. Nowadays the power on is muted by most manufacturers. Naim have some idea that the mute circuits should impact the sound quality. QED.

 

[CnoEvil]

Hi Steve ur making right decision keeping Elicit R in my opinion,mine has no hum and no other problems,sounds great and Rega customer support is second to none,i remember couple years ago i broke power button on my Mira3 when having a look insider then didnt fit case back on properly, rega fixed for free and paid to have couriered back to me at no charge for my stupidity,Mira 3 was years out of warranty i was able to phone direct to Rega and had amp back in 7 days so dont wory about problems down the line if my experiance is anything to go by,i do live in new house with good electric and have always used tacima mains filter which no doubt helps,as you know Elicit R sounds fantastic and looks amazing with bags of power,wonder if Rega have any plans to release some new power amps with new pre amp,they dont have any in there range as of now,exon 3 are discontinued,maybe Paul D can provide us with some info regarding replacement of exon 3 in future.

A lovely, well thought out system you have there. The Elicit R sounds very well with the R500s, and I've heard great things about the Nad M51.

 

[davedotco]

Ah, is that why Audio Research, McIntosh to name two still predominantly use Frame transformers ...

regards

Toroidal transformers are more efficient and even for the same rating as a laminated one, they will chuck out more current.

What a load of rubbish!!. True, toroids are more efficient but to say that they 'chuck out' more current than a laminate for a given Va rating is just plain wrong. A 500Va transformer is what it is whether laminate or toroid. Laws of physics n all that. :wall:

Easy with the 'laws of physics' and other real facts Richard, you may end up with a reputation like mine........

 

[stevienut]

Thanks CnoEvil yes ive had Nad M51 since release and its very nice dac,as you said the Elicit R sounds amazing with Keff R500 ,where i live in scotland there is not one hifi shop so had to relay on review sites like whathifi and others to stear me in right direction although i do tend to give more weight to normal users like yourself than profesional reviewers,i love this hobby lol

 

[stevebrock]

Just spoken to cymbiosis and Rega have sent a new unit that has been fully tested so will pick it up Saturday - Hopefuly this issue can get concluded now I guess it's 3rd time lucky.

 

[chebby]

Just spoken to cymbiosis and Rega have sent a new unit that has been fully tested so will pick it up Saturday - Hopefuly this issue can get concluded now I guess it's 3rd time lucky.

Make sure it's powered up in the shop to see if it hums in the same manner.

If it doesn't hum in the shop, but does so in your home, then you can conclude it's something wrong with your mains.

 

[stevebrock]

Yeah will do re: test in shop.

As said previously my 'other' Elicit and Brio never hummed on my mains ring at home.

I do want to stick with the Elciit, I did consider last night about a refund and trying a different amp, but I like the Elciit sound and want to keep it matching my dac, phone and TT PSU - silly I know - but it all matches nicely.

Did mention trying Naim again but I know they are prone to buzzing too!

 

[kikiso]

No, the right channel gave up. It got hot but not abnormally, same as the replacement I have now.

 

[stevebrock]

No, the right channel gave up. It got hot but not abnormally, same as the replacement I have now.

joking aside, are you enjoying the Elciit?

 

[alchemist 1]

>)

Just spoken to cymbiosis and Rega have sent a new unit that has been fully tested so will pick it up Saturday - Hopefuly this issue can get concluded now I guess it's 3rd time lucky.

Along with a RP10.................GO on .......>)

 

[stevebrock]

>)

Just spoken to cymbiosis and Rega have sent a new unit that has been fully tested so will pick it up Saturday - Hopefuly this issue can get concluded now I guess it's 3rd time lucky.

Along with a RP10.................GO on .......>)

Yep they have 1 there, I will have a listen as got one of the demo rooms booked out, provided they still have it as it is the Rega reps and he may of taken it back as CES has finished

 

[Native_bon]

Hi.

For what it's worth, I'm building an amp and I went to a toroid maker and gave him the spec I needed and he went out of his way to warn me that toroids do tend to hum a bit. When I asked him why he said that no 2 toroids are EXACTLY the same. One might buzz a bit under load and another won't. I asked him why and what I was told was that toroids are essentially wound as 1 offs. At which point I said to increase the Va of the toroid and he advised me that if he did that the sound quality of the amp could be compromised ( spelt that right?? ).

With large transformers, the toroid is the less expensive way to go. True, a laminate won't buzz like that but it'll be twice the cost and huge and weigh a ton. Just seems to be something with toroids which seems to be exaggerated with 'c**p' on the mains line sometimes.

That's the way it was explained to me anyway.

I know this doesn't help the OP though because it's annoying when it happens although out of all the toroids I've used over the years, most of them have been NOVATEL and none of them have buzzed. Not even the 1000Va.

It is the combination of the characteristics of the toroid and the characteristics of the mains distortion that cause the problem. I have experienced mains so poor that virtually any piece of kit that you try will hum and buzz but that does not appear to be the issue here.

The previous amplifier was quiet and the likelyhood is that the next one you try will be too, inconveniant sure but surely not that big an issue when you have the assurance of the manufacturer that it will be sorted.

The reality is that this is a (relatively) mass produced amplifier built to come to market at about £1500. The transformer is, along with the case, the most expensive component in the amplifier so costs here are crucial.

As Richard points out a laminated transformer will be far more expensive, a 'guaranteed' noise free toroid could probably by built at a price, but would anyone buy an Ellicit-R at £2500?

And why should theyhave to, in my experience this sort of problem is relatively rare, and the number that can not be solved by swapping the amp for another sample rarer still. The amp is fine value for 90+% of the people who purchase it, that's just the way it is.

Edit. In my experience all brands of transformers that I have seen used in hi-fi can hum and buzz in certain situations.

Thats not just the it is... The way it is.. is do something about it. when you get so many people having the same problem from the same company then its a bad design. When this topic was brought up last year so many people report the same problems of huming.. with rega amps so this is not a case of just a one of or few amps..

I have bought some many amps including cambridge audio which uses a lot of toroid mains power & never once did I hear any huming...

You really don't get this do you?

It is a combination of circumstances that causes the issue, if you do not have those specific circumstances, you will not have a problem.

Your mains happen to be reasonably clean so you will not get a noise, if they are 'dirty' you may or may not get the noise.

Big toroids such as those used by Naim and Rega may be more susceptible to noise, but only in certain conditions. Naturally people who have an issue make a fuss, those, the vast majority, who do not have an issue, say nothing.

It's simple enough. You can put a big toroid in a £1500 amplifier, get a fantastc sound and for the vast majority a silent amplifier. Althernatively you can use a similarly priced but smaller transformer and get a less good sounding but perfectly quite (in all situations) amplifier.

It is not a "design fault", it is a business decision, hence my use of the phrase, 'that's just the way it is'.

Why does this combinations of circumstances only go wrong with the very same company.. Why are other companies not have these so call bad combination of circumstances..? Its like saying someone who always wins a race or a game all the time.. Then you say oh its combination of circumstances thats why you win all the time..? I think your digging your self deeper here.

 

[matthewpiano]

Hi.

For what it's worth, I'm building an amp and I went to a toroid maker and gave him the spec I needed and he went out of his way to warn me that toroids do tend to hum a bit. When I asked him why he said that no 2 toroids are EXACTLY the same. One might buzz a bit under load and another won't. I asked him why and what I was told was that toroids are essentially wound as 1 offs. At which point I said to increase the Va of the toroid and he advised me that if he did that the sound quality of the amp could be compromised ( spelt that right?? ).

With large transformers, the toroid is the less expensive way to go. True, a laminate won't buzz like that but it'll be twice the cost and huge and weigh a ton. Just seems to be something with toroids which seems to be exaggerated with 'c**p' on the mains line sometimes.

That's the way it was explained to me anyway.

I know this doesn't help the OP though because it's annoying when it happens although out of all the toroids I've used over the years, most of them have been NOVATEL and none of them have buzzed. Not even the 1000Va.

It is the combination of the characteristics of the toroid and the characteristics of the mains distortion that cause the problem. I have experienced mains so poor that virtually any piece of kit that you try will hum and buzz but that does not appear to be the issue here.

The previous amplifier was quiet and the likelyhood is that the next one you try will be too, inconveniant sure but surely not that big an issue when you have the assurance of the manufacturer that it will be sorted.

The reality is that this is a (relatively) mass produced amplifier built to come to market at about £1500. The transformer is, along with the case, the most expensive component in the amplifier so costs here are crucial.

As Richard points out a laminated transformer will be far more expensive, a 'guaranteed' noise free toroid could probably by built at a price, but would anyone buy an Ellicit-R at £2500?

And why should theyhave to, in my experience this sort of problem is relatively rare, and the number that can not be solved by swapping the amp for another sample rarer still. The amp is fine value for 90+% of the people who purchase it, that's just the way it is.

Edit. In my experience all brands of transformers that I have seen used in hi-fi can hum and buzz in certain situations.

Thats not just the it is... The way it is.. is do something about it. when you get so many people having the same problem from the same company then its a bad design. When this topic was brought up last year so many people report the same problems of huming.. with rega amps so this is not a case of just a one of or few amps..

I have bought some many amps including cambridge audio which uses a lot of toroid mains power & never once did I hear any huming...

You were very lucky then. I have owned, at various times, several Cambridge amps including 340A V2.0, 540A, 640A V2.0, 650A, and 740A. Every single one has exhibited some buzz/hum from the mains transformer, as did both of the NAD C326BEEs I had and a C325BEE.

On the other hand none of the Arcams, Marantz or Rotels I've had have produced any humming noise at all.

 

[Native_bon]

Hi.

For what it's worth, I'm building an amp and I went to a toroid maker and gave him the spec I needed and he went out of his way to warn me that toroids do tend to hum a bit. When I asked him why he said that no 2 toroids are EXACTLY the same. One might buzz a bit under load and another won't. I asked him why and what I was told was that toroids are essentially wound as 1 offs. At which point I said to increase the Va of the toroid and he advised me that if he did that the sound quality of the amp could be compromised ( spelt that right?? ).

With large transformers, the toroid is the less expensive way to go. True, a laminate won't buzz like that but it'll be twice the cost and huge and weigh a ton. Just seems to be something with toroids which seems to be exaggerated with 'c**p' on the mains line sometimes.

That's the way it was explained to me anyway.

I know this doesn't help the OP though because it's annoying when it happens although out of all the toroids I've used over the years, most of them have been NOVATEL and none of them have buzzed. Not even the 1000Va.

It is the combination of the characteristics of the toroid and the characteristics of the mains distortion that cause the problem. I have experienced mains so poor that virtually any piece of kit that you try will hum and buzz but that does not appear to be the issue here.

The previous amplifier was quiet and the likelyhood is that the next one you try will be too, inconveniant sure but surely not that big an issue when you have the assurance of the manufacturer that it will be sorted.

The reality is that this is a (relatively) mass produced amplifier built to come to market at about £1500. The transformer is, along with the case, the most expensive component in the amplifier so costs here are crucial.

As Richard points out a laminated transformer will be far more expensive, a 'guaranteed' noise free toroid could probably by built at a price, but would anyone buy an Ellicit-R at £2500?

And why should theyhave to, in my experience this sort of problem is relatively rare, and the number that can not be solved by swapping the amp for another sample rarer still. The amp is fine value for 90+% of the people who purchase it, that's just the way it is.

Edit. In my experience all brands of transformers that I have seen used in hi-fi can hum and buzz in certain situations.

Thats not just the it is... The way it is.. is do something about it. when you get so many people having the same problem from the same company then its a bad design. When this topic was brought up last year so many people report the same problems of huming.. with rega amps so this is not a case of just a one of or few amps..

I have bought some many amps including cambridge audio which uses a lot of toroid mains power & never once did I hear any huming...

You were very lucky then. I have owned, at various times, several Cambridge amps including 340A V2.0, 540A, 640A V2.0, 650A, and 740A. Every single one has exhibited some buzz/hum from the mains transformer, as did both of the NAD C326BEEs I had and a C325BEE.

On the other hand none of the Arcams, Marantz or Rotels I've had have produced any humming noise at all.

So u bought up to seven CA amps & not at one piont did you think of not buying an more of these humming CA amps..? I find that very hard to believe.

 

[matthewpiano]

The hum never particularly bothered me, as it was not as loud as that experienced by Steve on his Rega - I couldn't hear it from the listening position on any of them but it was nevertheless clearly there. I went through a period of really liking CA amps based on their musical capabilities and my box swapping has been well documented.

 

[davedotco]

Hi.

For what it's worth, I'm building an amp and I went to a toroid maker and gave him the spec I needed and he went out of his way to warn me that toroids do tend to hum a bit. When I asked him why he said that no 2 toroids are EXACTLY the same. One might buzz a bit under load and another won't. I asked him why and what I was told was that toroids are essentially wound as 1 offs. At which point I said to increase the Va of the toroid and he advised me that if he did that the sound quality of the amp could be compromised ( spelt that right?? ).

With large transformers, the toroid is the less expensive way to go. True, a laminate won't buzz like that but it'll be twice the cost and huge and weigh a ton. Just seems to be something with toroids which seems to be exaggerated with 'c**p' on the mains line sometimes.

That's the way it was explained to me anyway.

I know this doesn't help the OP though because it's annoying when it happens although out of all the toroids I've used over the years, most of them have been NOVATEL and none of them have buzzed. Not even the 1000Va.

It is the combination of the characteristics of the toroid and the characteristics of the mains distortion that cause the problem. I have experienced mains so poor that virtually any piece of kit that you try will hum and buzz but that does not appear to be the issue here.

The previous amplifier was quiet and the likelyhood is that the next one you try will be too, inconveniant sure but surely not that big an issue when you have the assurance of the manufacturer that it will be sorted.

The reality is that this is a (relatively) mass produced amplifier built to come to market at about £1500. The transformer is, along with the case, the most expensive component in the amplifier so costs here are crucial.

As Richard points out a laminated transformer will be far more expensive, a 'guaranteed' noise free toroid could probably by built at a price, but would anyone buy an Ellicit-R at £2500?

And why should theyhave to, in my experience this sort of problem is relatively rare, and the number that can not be solved by swapping the amp for another sample rarer still. The amp is fine value for 90+% of the people who purchase it, that's just the way it is.

Edit. In my experience all brands of transformers that I have seen used in hi-fi can hum and buzz in certain situations.

Thats not just the it is... The way it is.. is do something about it. when you get so many people having the same problem from the same company then its a bad design. When this topic was brought up last year so many people report the same problems of huming.. with rega amps so this is not a case of just a one of or few amps..

I have bought some many amps including cambridge audio which uses a lot of toroid mains power & never once did I hear any huming...

You really don't get this do you?

It is a combination of circumstances that causes the issue, if you do not have those specific circumstances, you will not have a problem.

Your mains happen to be reasonably clean so you will not get a noise, if they are 'dirty' you may or may not get the noise.

Big toroids such as those used by Naim and Rega may be more susceptible to noise, but only in certain conditions. Naturally people who have an issue make a fuss, those, the vast majority, who do not have an issue, say nothing.

It's simple enough. You can put a big toroid in a £1500 amplifier, get a fantastc sound and for the vast majority a silent amplifier. Althernatively you can use a similarly priced but smaller transformer and get a less good sounding but perfectly quite (in all situations) amplifier.

It is not a "design fault", it is a business decision, hence my use of the phrase, 'that's just the way it is'.

Why does this combinations of circumstances only go wrong with the very same company.. Why are other companies not have these so call bad combination of circumstances..? Its like saying someone who always wins a race or a game all the time.. Then you say oh its combination of circumstances thats why you win all the time..? I think your digging your self deeper here.

Why do you think other companies do not have problems?

They do, there are several references to Naim and I can add Roksan, older Linn, Krell, Yamaha and Crown to that list, just off the top of my head.

If you have never lived with or had to deal with the effects of poor quality mains then you have no real idea of the problem. It is variable in the extreme and in some cases you have to live with it. Placing Naim power amplifiers on a resilient shelf in a cupboard was not exactly unusual and these were amplifiers that were absolutely silent when tested in the shop.

As Richard pointed out, all transformers are slightly different, so there is a degree of variability but given a reasonably clean sinusoidal mains waveform none of them will hum or buzz noticably.

The 'burn in room' at Naim might have 40 or 50 amplifiers all powered up and be absolutely silent, yet the same amplifier can be audible at 15ft in a clients home. There are many examples of this with equipment from many different manufacturers.

Take my word for it or don't, up to you, but that is the reality.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

DDC is right. Christ, that hurt, mate!

 

[davedotco]

DDC is right. Christ, that hurt, mate!

Evening Al, are you feeling well? Good.

Happy new year by the way..... :cheers:

 

[Vladimir]

If this was a Yamaha or a Harman it would have been trashed by everyone and replaced by another brand the same day it developed the second fault. :?

The arguments "it's more common occurance than you think" and "we only get to hear the small vocal minority scream yelp" contradict eachother. Also in this case it's not different people complaining, it's the same guy getting a replacement amp for the third time by the same manufacturer on two different models.

Insanity is repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results. Tells you something about audiophiles.

 

[radiorog]

I've been away from this thread as I don't own a Elicit R and didn't like it in my system. But the thread is going off topic and now people are talking about Rega Brio R, let me add that my Brio R was in my rack for 1 year turn on 24/7 and never humed!!!

Rega sold this AMAZING amp by the hudreds and if all humed Rega had a big problem in hands, i think it's a bit unfair saing that Rega has a "genetic" problem.

I understand your concerns about bringing the brio r into this thread, but I was raising my concerns that it does appear to be an issue rega has in general with some of its amps.

I understand too that many people have had no issue, but I went through 4 amps in a month, and 3 had excessive humming, 1 was buzzing like a drill with buzzing also coming out of speakers. To me, 3 out of 4 buzzing amps seemed to be statistically relevant to warrant me posting some concerns I experiences.

 

[radiorog]

Just spoken to cymbiosis and Rega have sent a new unit that has been fully tested so will pick it up Saturday - Hopefuly this issue can get concluded now I guess it's 3rd time lucky.

Make sure it's powered up in the shop to see if it hums in the same manner.

If it doesn't hum in the shop, but does so in your home, then you can conclude it's something wrong with your mains.

Not totally correct as conditions in a large,airy,possibly busy showroom hide these sorts of noises. I know from experience