passive set up v active set up

[spiny norman]

Id be happy for just dev 200 v dm10.

Won't that be bland testing rather than blind? I really hope for AVI's sake the dm10 sounds better than the Devialet, as it would be difficult for anything to sound much less interesting.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Hi Andrew,

I've been intrigued by this post and been following from a dodgy interconnect in Greece (hols).  It's your own comparison with ATC SCM11s/Hegel that really grabbed my attention. I also own a pair of SCM11s currently driven by a Nord Hypex from Colin. I believe (rightly or wrongly) that for the money, I'm probably at the limits of great sound with a passive system in my listening room (maybe at any price?).

So the question is whether the AVI active option will take me further? From your experience, it would appear possible. Would love to hear them myself and would love to compare, like you did with the ATCs. However, not sure whether there's any room for another body + amp at your next comparison venue. Do you plan to keep the ATCs after any future purchase of the AVIs and if so, is there any way I could grab a listen at some point in the future? Also not sure how I would be feeding a Linn Akurate into an active speaker; by RCA line level or by RCA pre-out (the Linn has a digital volume pre out)?

Many thanks for any (polite) suggestions.

The atc 11s sound great but as for the active dm10s it goes up a notch.

As you are now youll be fine. Its just once you own speakers like avi dm10s or listened for that matter it would be almost impossible to go back. If that makes sense. But dont think all of a sudden you dont have good sound just because the avi active is better.

Because im going dolby atmos in not selling the atcs but i will also get a set of dm10s as i have to have this sound i heard last week.

If you are in my area you are most welcome to come and listen when i get them that is.

 

[Ashley James]

It was the first part of your post that I was particularly objecting to...

The second part does not add to the debate, as we've all heard it before - believers will believe, haters are going to hate! I'm sure these emails come from platinum-eared cognescenti, but you must accept that people want to judge for themselves....

Yes of course and FWIW I'd say that only a tiny percentage of buyers will appreciate what we do. One hi fi shop friend of mine reckoned if one a month was a a suitable customers, he was surprised.

 

[thewinelake.]

Of course you should be selling in the Apple Store rather than a hifi shop, as the preconceptions are likely to be less firmly entrenched.

 

[davedotco]

Hi Andrew,

I've been intrigued by this post and been following from a dodgy interconnect in Greece (hols). It's your own comparison with ATC SCM11s/Hegel that really grabbed my attention. I also own a pair of SCM11s currently driven by a Nord Hypex from Colin. I believe (rightly or wrongly) that for the money, I'm probably at the limits of great sound with a passive system in my listening room (maybe at any price?).

So the question is whether the AVI active option will take me further? From your experience, it would appear possible. Would love to hear them myself and would love to compare, like you did with the ATCs. However, not sure whether there's any room for another body + amp at your next comparison venue. Do you plan to keep the ATCs after any future purchase of the AVIs and if so, is there any way I could grab a listen at some point in the future? Also not sure how I would be feeding a Linn Akurate into an active speaker; by RCA line level or by RCA pre-out (the Linn has a digital volume pre out)?

Many thanks for any (polite) suggestions.

In some respects the answer is no.

Yes, I've read the thread and am I big fan of active speakers so that may seem like an odd answer, let me try and explain.

If you were to try DM10s (or Unity Audio 'The Rock', or PMC TwoTwo5 etc) what you would get is not a better version of what you have now, but something rather different. Hi-fi is sometimes described as a pathway leading to audio 'perfection' and mostly, what happens when you upgrade your system, is you move further forward along this pathway, to a greater or lesser degree, depending on the effectiveness or otherwise of your upgrade.

Were you to switch to any of the better actives, such as those mentioned above, this really does not happen, something else occurs. It is as if you have stopped in your tracks, reversed a long way back down this particular pathway, then set off, on another pathway, still taking you towards 'perfection' but via a totally different path.

So, if you are looking for a better version of what you already have, you are in for a surprise because the active option is very different. In part this explains why, for many people, a comparitive demonstration is of little help, you do not need to listen carefully to two systems properly set up, to hear what is going on, the difference is that obvious.

Of course whether that difference works for you or not is up to you.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Id be happy for just dev 200 v dm10.

Won't that be bland testing rather than blind? I really hope for AVI's sake the dm10 sounds better than the Devialet, as it would be difficult for anything to sound much less interesting.

Dear me Spiny, in your bitterness you seem to be missing the whole point of a Devialet. The fact that it has the lowest measured distortion figures of any Amplifier means that essentially it gets out if the way and just lets you hear the music as it was intended. In effect you don't hear a Devialet at all. Just the source.

- Isn't that what an ideal Amplifier is supposed to do?

 

[Infiniteloop]

Is this a wind-up, Ashley?

The proof of the pudding is in the eating - if someone tells you that your cake stinks, but you shouldn't bother comparing - then alarm bells ring.

Although I'm in grave danger of becoming an AVIian, may I respectfully suggest that you try to behave!

Andrew

It most certainly is not a wind up!

That email came from Ivan as described and it pretty much mirrors what everyone who hears them says.

One of the biggest driver manufacturers in the world visited us, designed us special drivers and then the owners bought a pair. The email from Ivan is their eventual response. At first they couldn't understand why they sounded like headphones. Then they realised.

So one of your suppliers visits you, a customer, and has nothing but gushing praise for your product which uses items that they supply to you?

Forgive me, but are you really that naive?

 

[lpv]

... the whole point of a Devialet... it has the lowest measured distortion figures of any Amplifier means that essentially it gets out if the way and just lets you hear the music as it was intended. In effect you don't hear a Devialet at all. Just the source.

- Isn't that what an ideal Amplifier is supposed to do?

correct and can't wait to hear it..

 

[spiny norman]

Dear me Spiny, in your bitterness you seem to be missing the whole point of a Devialet. The fact that it has the lowest measured distortion figures of any Amplifier means that essentially it gets out if the way and just lets you hear the music as it was intended. In effect you don't hear a Devialet at all. Just the source.

- Isn't that what an ideal Amplifier is supposed to do?

It's not bitterness at all, nor missing the supposed point, but rather that every time I've heard a Devialet on demonstration I've found the sound to be mechanical, artificial-sounding and anything but enjoyable. It was very disappointing, as I went into the dems hoping that this would be 'the one' after all the great things I'd heard about it.

Sorry I didn't listen to the manufacturer's figures, in which there's clearly not the slightest hint of marketing BS, or I might have heard something different I guess. But however wonderful the amplifiers are claimed to be (and I have tried most of them at various demonstrations), they just don't do anything whatsoever for me when it comes to increasing my musical enjoyment.

Or is it just that I am not allowed an opinion?

 

[oivavoi10]

This will be my first comment ever here, after having been a long-time lurker. I just gotta blow off some steam here, and say this: This Spiny Norman guy probably wins the prize for being the most annoying online commenter in the history of hifi. I mean, being against active speakers or being against certain manufacturers is fine, but... Hello?

Ok, back to topic.

 

[lpv]

he's fully aware of that

 

[lindsayt]

So are the systems going to be kept as pairings of amp+speaker, so we have:

infinteloop: Devialet 200 + Focal Electra 1008Be (£3,500?? + £3,000)

lpv: AVI DM10 (£1,500)

andrewjvt: Hegel H360 + ATC SCM11 (£3,400 + £1,200)

I think there's a reasonable chance the AVI's will win that bake-off.

There's also a high chance I'd prefer the AVI's over the other 2 systems.

As I've already said, I think that ATC's don't get good until you hit the SCM50 level. Plus there's andrewjvt's fair minded report on the first bake-off.

I've heard a few Focals higher up the range than the 1008Be's and really didn't like them. Too spitty / brash / harsh for my tastes without any particularly good redeeming features. I'm not holding my breath that I'd like the 1008Be's.

Spiny Norman has good ears and somewhat similar tastes to myself. I'd go along with his comments about the Devialet amps.

 

[Andrewjvt]

So are the systems going to be kept as pairings of amp+speaker, so we have:

infinteloop: Devialet 200 + Focal Electra 1008Be (£3,500?? + £3,000)

lpv: AVI DM10 (£1,500)

andrewjvt: Hegel H360 + ATC SCM11  (£3,400 + £1,200)

I think there's a reasonable chance the AVI's will win that bake-off.

There's also a high chance I'd prefer the AVI's over the other 2 systems.

 

As I've already said, I think that ATC's don't get good until you hit the SCM50 level. Plus there's andrewjvt's fair minded report on the first bake-off.

I've heard a few Focals higher up the range than the 1008Be's and really didn't like them. Too spitty / brash / harsh for my tastes without any particularly good redeeming features. I'm not holding my breath that I'd like the 1008Be's.

Spiny Norman has good ears and somewhat similar tastes to myself. I'd go along with his comments about the Devialet amps.

There is also the other side of the story.
Id like to hear your systems
email me at my username at yahoo.com

 

[spiny norman]

This will be my first comment ever here, after having been a long-time lurker. I just gotta blow off some steam here, and say this: This Spiny Norman guy probably wins the prize for being the most annoying online commenter in the history of hifi. I mean, being against active speakers or being against certain manufacturers is fine, but... Hello?

Hello to you too..

It's not a matter of being against active speakers per se, but rather some of the more absolute claims made for some of them.

And that aside, it's a not a matter of being against certain manufacturers: I'm sure the people at Devialet are jolly nice chaps and all that, but I don't like the way their products sound. Is that no longer allowed?

 

[steve_1979]

This will be my first comment ever here, after having been a long-time lurker. I just gotta blow off some steam here, and say this: This Spiny Norman guy probably wins the prize for being the most annoying online commenter in the history of hifi. I mean, being against active speakers or being against certain manufacturers is fine, but... Hello?

Ok, back to topic.

Welcome to the forum.

 

[steve_1979]

I do one or two dems a week and most don't have their kit with them and yet still they can tell DM10s better almost immediately, so instead of massive planning compare, but I don't think you'll need to go to so much trouble.

I agree that it's not really necessary to arrange things to such a degree because the difference between speakers is likely to be so big it's obvious to even a deaf person.

Going to the trouble of setting things up well is really required to close gaps in the sceptics arguments. Last time the DM10 only won because of the speaker stands. This time if all the bases are covered and the DM10s still sound best what can they say then?

EDIT - No dout they'll think of something anyway. Maybe the DM10s won because Darius has the wrong colour wallpaper or Andrew was wearing the wrong type of underpants. There'll be some excuse no matter what.

 

[CnoEvil]

Last time the DM10 only won because of the speaker stands. This time if all the bases are covered and the DM10s still sound best what can they say then?

I'm not sure that was what was said....and certainly not what I said.

The DM10s may still win, but the ATCs should be given an equal footing.

There are those who get hung up on Blind Testing and volume setting. With me its set up and positioning, with properly run in and warmed up kit....and cables. *diablo*

 

[The Mad One]

You no what im tempted to tag along to the this 3way sound out and make it a foursome (ooooeeerrrr)

All i need is my DM5'S and a handfull of books and see how these little babies cope with the big boys

Apart from the slight lack of bass i reakon they'll smash the ATC'S out the water atleast and probably hold onto there own with the rest.

Even at very low level they still sound f-ing amazing.

And did i mention how sweet they look cheeky little buggers.lol

 

[lpv]

it's not in my house so it's not up to me to invite more participants...

 

[Andrewjvt]

 Last time the DM10 only won because of the speaker stands. This time if all the bases are covered and the DM10s still sound best what can they say then?

I'm not sure that was what was said....and certainly not what I said.

The DM10s may still win, but the ATCs should be given an equal footing.

There are those who get hung up on Blind Testing and volume setting. With me its set up and positioning, with properly run in and warmed up kit....and cables. *diablo*

Out of all people on this forum you are fair and right no question.

When i say people accuse im talking about the evil music creatures not you. People that think only they are right and have a point to prove. They make accusasions as if everything evoles around them and that all findings were made just for them.

Anything you say is taken in the good spirit it was intended.

Hooe that rant makes sense but im braai-ing now

 

[lpv]

very well put together Steve..

 

[steve_1979]

The DM10s may still win, but the ATCs should be given an equal footing.

I totally agree. It is best to make things equal so that it's a fair comparison. It just wouldn't be right to do it any other way.

But as an owner of the DM10 2.1 system who's already compared them to various passive systems costing many thousands of pounds more and heard exactly the same results that Darius and Andrew heard I understand their fustration at peoples reactions too. The difference is so obvious.

They know what their ATC speakers sound like when properly setup at home because they've listened to them in ideal conditions for many hours before hand. They know that the ATCs will never sound as smooth and clear as the DM10s do with or without the books. It's as simple as that.

If you've never heard the DM10s though it's hard to understand what I mean as you're just reading words attempting to descibe it. But the difference really is huge and if you ever get the chance to hear them for yourself you'll understand why it's so unmistakable.

 

[oivavoi10]

This will be my first comment ever here, after having been a long-time lurker. I just gotta blow off some steam here, and say this: This Spiny Norman guy probably wins the prize for being the most annoying online commenter in the history of hifi. I mean, being against active speakers or being against certain manufacturers is fine, but... Hello?

Hello to you too..

It's not a matter of being against active speakers per se, but rather some of the more absolute claims made for some of them.

And that aside, it's a not a matter of being against certain manufacturers: I'm sure the people at Devialet are jolly nice chaps and all that, but I don't like the way their products sound. Is that no longer allowed?

I actually wasn't thinking about your comments about Devialet, but rather your vitriol against AVI. What can this small, British, independent manufacturer possibly have done to deserve such a level of hostility? Beats me. (yeah, I know that Ashley James is not the diplomatic bloke out there, but still)

For what it's worth, I've heard the AVI DM10s just once, and they blew me away. That said, I don't think of them as the end-all-be-all of speakers. I've heard a couple of speaker pairs I think were better. They were all active though, and either much more expensive than the AVIs (the Kii Three for example), or DIY-based (the Linkwitz LX521). But I've also heard some very good passive speakers, that were almost up on the same level. Many very good passive speakers will easily beat out active speakers of medium quality. But I might very well end up getting the DM10s. Unless I decide to go for the Linkwitz speakers, that is.

 

[steve_1979]

(the Kii Three for example), or DIY-based (the Linkwitz LX521).

Two of the most fascinating speaker designs around. I've read about them both before and they look very interesting.

Along with ESL or other panel type speakers that I've never had a chance to hear before, the Kii Three and Linkwitz LX521 are two of the speakers that I'd most like to listen to. I'd be very interested to hear how they compare to the DM10s.

 

[spiny norman]

I actually wasn't thinking about your comments about Devialet, but rather your vitriol against AVI. What can this small, British, independent manufacturer possibly have done to deserve such a level of hostility? Beats me. (yeah, I know that Ashley James is not the diplomatic bloke out there, but still)

EDITED: Ah, I can't be bothered.