passive set up v active set up

[oivavoi10]

(the Kii Three for example), or DIY-based (the Linkwitz LX521).

Two of the most fascinating speaker designs around. I've read about them both before and they look very interesting.

Along with ESL or other panel type speakers that I've never had a chance to hear before, the Kii Three and Linkwitz LX521 are two of the speakers that I'd most like to listen to. I'd be very interested to hear how they compare to the DM10s.

 

Agreed. The principal reason why I liked the Kii Three and the LX521 even better than the DM10s, was how they controlled directionality in the room. So especially when listening somewhat away from the speakers, it sounded more natural. But I suspect that when listened to in a near-field setup, or in a room with very good acoustic conditions, the DM10s might sound just as good or even better.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Last time the DM10 only won because of the speaker stands. This time if all the bases are covered and the DM10s still sound best what can they say then?

I'm not sure that was what was said....and certainly not what I said.

The DM10s may still win, but the ATCs should be given an equal footing.

There are those who get hung up on Blind Testing and volume setting. With me its set up and positioning, with properly run in and warmed up kit....and cables. *diablo*

I couldn't agree more Cno, which may make this whole thing not worthwhile. It takes ages IMO to set up speakers properly, to get them to image well and provide the right balance of bass and focus. To do that, I find that they often need to be on their own stands.

The room they're in also has a huge effect. My Focals sound fabulous in my upstairs listening room, but the SF's sound better than them in the downstairs room which is a little more 'live'.

Warming-up kit will be an issue too as there will be very limited time.

As for Cables..............

 

[Infiniteloop]

Dear me Spiny, in your bitterness you seem to be missing the whole point of a Devialet. The fact that it has the lowest measured distortion figures of any Amplifier means that essentially it gets out if the way and just lets you hear the music as it was intended. In effect you don't hear a Devialet at all. Just the source.

- Isn't that what an ideal Amplifier is supposed to do?

It's not bitterness at all, nor missing the supposed point, but rather that every time I've heard a Devialet on demonstration I've found the sound to be mechanical, artificial-sounding and anything but enjoyable. It was very disappointing, as I went into the dems hoping that this would be 'the one' after all the great things I'd heard about it.

Sorry I didn't listen to the manufacturer's figures, in which there's clearly not the slightest hint of marketing BS, or I might have heard something different I guess. But however wonderful the amplifiers are claimed to be (and I have tried most of them at various demonstrations), they just don't do anything whatsoever for me when it comes to increasing my musical enjoyment.

Or is it just that I am not allowed an opinion?

I have rarely heard anything that impressed me much at demonstrations either. If that's where you have formed your opinion, perhaps listening at home might be more useful.

Yes, of course you can have an opinion. I just find it odd that you feel the need to post when other people's opinions impinge upon it when it isn't asked for.

 

[spiny norman]

Yes, of course you can have an opinion. I just find it odd that you feel the need to post when other people's opinions impinge upon it when it isn't asked for.

I merely offered an opinion in a thread I was reading. I wasn't aware one had to be specifically invited to post.

 

[plastic penguin]

Out of interest, how many times since 2010 has AVI upgraded or released a new active set-up?

 

[jcbrum]

AVI ADM9 were first produced in 2006 and ceased in 2015, a run of about 9 years. The only major revision was the ADM9RS (red spot) which was a major redesign about 5 years ago. During their life there were minor revisions. The first six months of production had USB digital input with two analogue inputs, then came Toslink / optical spdif digital input instead. Following that inputs changed to two optical and one analogue. All ADM9s had Scanspeak tweeters, but the ADM9RS used a Sinar Baja tweeter which was a development of the Scanspeak design. The RS model was offered with the option of original Scanspeak tweeters and known as ADM9RSS. The amplifiers are AVI designed and made in UK, class AB.

ADM40s were larger and much more expensive floor standing units, also no longer in production.

DM10 is current production and a completely new design, about 18 months ago, but visually similar to 9s in size, with similar inputs. It uses special drive units developed by AVI and manufactured by Sinar Baja to AVI's specific requirements. Again electronics are AVI designed and made in UK, class AB.

DM5 is much smaller, introduced about 18 months ago, analogue inputs only, and no remote control. Amplification is class D.

This from my personal recollections, but go to the AVI website if you need better info.

JC

 

[davedotco]

The ADM9, 9.1 and 9T were the original series with the changes made to the input choice being the main factor in the 'different' models. Like most modern small scale production, small improvements were made and incorporated as they became available, hence modest improvements as the model matures.

The big change was the 'Red Spot' or the 9RS. A new Sinar Baja bass driver gave the speaker a weightier balance and was seen by most as a serious upgrade, this was the standard production model. A few pairs were made available with the more expensive ScanSpeak tweeter, (left over from the ADM40 project?) and designated 9RSS.

Final production used the new Sinar Baja tweeter and was designated the 9SB. The differences between the three models was modest, most users would probably not be that bothered.

Any of these three models make a fine secondhand buy if you can find them, expect to pay around £700-800.

The ADM10 is a new speaker, similar functionality and cabinet size to the 9s, but everything else is different.

 

[Ashley James]

The DM10 driver is on the left and the one on the right is hi end OEM customised to suit us. Back left is a prototype on trial along with the round one that we preferred.

We had developed ADMs as far as we could and to take them further we needed a better bass driver than we'd been able to find.

Sinar Baja offered to try and design special drivers for us at our expense, but like say Harbeth or ATC, we're small and we couldn't afford it. Unbelievably and don't forget they design speakers for Bentley and Yamaha and supply Genec, they decided to design for us at their expense. They cost us about double the normal OEM stuff, but they're a hell of a lot better, even better than the Scanspeak Illuminators in our ADM40s but less expensive because they are not made in very expensive Denmark, although they do have a lab there.

 

[chebby]

Can two ADM10 'slave' units be purchased and used with an existing integrated/DAC amp from it's pre-outs?

The DM10's integral DAC/pre doesn't offer enough digital connectivity for me.

My set-up (Quad Vena) has coax digital (in and out) connections and two optical inputs plus USB A and B inputs (with direct Apple connectivity/compatibility/charging) and it has Bluetooth aPTX and a full-sized (1/4") headphone socket.

I use almost all of that (except for the USB B and digital co-ax), so it would be good to be able to just hang a 'dumb' active speaker off each pre-out RCA socket.

I know there are ADM5s but they are a bit too small.

Just a thought.

 

[thewinelake.]

Ha! I asked that and was told no.

part of the reason is that they're handed in design (not sure what difference that would make).

and even then, it's hard to find something appropriate to drive them where you don't feel you're wasting a power amp. Yamaha CXN-50 comes close, but not enough analogue inputs. I'm going to be augmenting my ADM9rs pair with a cheapo secondhand Audiolab 8000a

 

[davedotco]

In a pair of ADMs simply has a line input, no attenuation, nothing. It would be very easy to generatea spike (pugging the phono on whilst switched on for example) and damage the drive units, everything is wide open and at full gain.

I believe AVI did supply a few odd slave speakers some years ago and a fair few were blown up, AVI, I think, decided it was more trouble than it was worth.

AVI's target market does not really include 'old school' hi-fi enthusiasts, as Ash says, their customers use an AEX or a Sonos Connect, maybe a TV too, thats it. It is a marketing decision.

 

[thewinelake.]

The way you put it is rather better!

 

[chebby]

AVI's target market does not really include 'old school' hi-fi enthusiasts, as Ash says, their customers use an AEX or a Sonos Connect, maybe a TV too, thats it. It is a marketing decision.

I am using precisely that (AEX latest version + ATV3 + AirPlay) but i'd need a second optical for the television and Bluetooth for our daughter's Samsung phones/tablets to operate wirelessly.

You have a point with Sonos ('Play' speakers especially), but AVI are smack-bang in the middle of 'old school' hi-fi, enthusiast territory. (The wood veneer, the cloth grilles, the price, the exclusivity of a niche British manufacturer and designer, the high quality, bespoke, componentry etc.)

I'd say far more 'traditional' than Naim (with their new forays into Chinese built Mu-so products).

This is no bad thing, but they are not 'cutting edge' like Devialet's Phantoms are perceived to be for instance.

 

[davedotco]

AVI's target market does not really include 'old school' hi-fi enthusiasts, as Ash says, their customers use an AEX or a Sonos Connect, maybe a TV too, thats it. It is a marketing decision.

I am using precisely that (AEX latest version + ATV3 + AirPlay) but i'd need a second optical for the television and Bluetooth for our daughter's Samsung phones/tablets to operate wirelessly.

You have a point with Sonos ('Play' speakers especially), but AVI are smack-bang in the middle of 'old school' hi-fi, enthusiast territory. (The wood veneer, the cloth grilles, the price, the exclusivity of a niche British manufacturer and designer, the high quality, bespoke, componentry etc.)

I'd say far more 'traditional' than Naim (with their new forays into Chinese built Mu-so products).

This is no bad thing, but they are not 'cutting edge' like Devialet's Phantoms are perceived to be for instance.

The AVIs are certainly traditional in terms of looks, the components are good quality but as you say, the rest of the package is pretty 'old school'.

I know, from experience, that AVI try and avoid 'enthusiast' territory, they really have no interest in engaging with hi-fi types, by their own admission they are looking at clients who, in the main, have had component systems and wish to downsize and declutter, hence the traditional looks.

I read the AVI forum on occasions and have seen some of the 'enthusiasts' taken to task, primarily because they are not typical of what AVI see as their normal customer base.

I have no great insight beyond this, I know that my current requirements would suit the functionality of a pair of ADM 10s, but sadly the wood finish really is not possible for me so I have gone a different route.

 

[chebby]

... by their own admission they are looking at clients who, in the main, have had component systems and wish to downsize and declutter, hence the traditional looks.

How can they tell, from just an online order, how their product will be used, or with what sources, or by what kind of clients?

Someone could be slipping a CD into their - optically connected to DM10s - separate CD player right now, as I type! (After a nice session with BBC Radio 3 FM on their analogue connected, valve, stereo tuner.)

Unless they joined the AVI forum, to 'fess up to their crimes-against-activity, then Ashley need never know.

 

[davedotco]

Going on what has been said by the owner of the company.

Anyone who talks to AVI, rather than simply placing an order online, will talk to Ashley, and this is what he says, not once but on a number of occasions.

Of course he could be telling complete porkies, I have no way of knowing. They could all be using vinyl and cassette tapes but what purpose does it serve to say different?

 

[plastic penguin]

Last time the DM10 only won because of the speaker stands. This time if all the bases are covered and the DM10s still sound best what can they say then?

I'm not sure that was what was said....and certainly not what I said.

The DM10s may still win, but the ATCs should be given an equal footing.

There are those who get hung up on Blind Testing and volume setting. With me its set up and positioning, with properly run in and warmed up kit....and cables. *diablo*

Out of all people on this forum you are fair and right no question.

When i say people accuse im talking about the evil music creatures not you. People that think only they are right and have a point to prove. They make accusasions as if everything evoles around them and that all findings were made just for them.

Anything you say is taken in the good spirit it was intended.

Hooe that rant makes sense but im braai-ing now

I know Andrew is aiming it at me. I have no point to prove - in fact I took as read that the were better - until I clocked the stands. I'm no expert on stands but the ATCs need a fair shot, given by Andrew's admission they used books to prop the ATCs up. And, a few pages ago, Andrew alluded to having regrets posting the pictures... that tells me a lot IMHO.

Or in other words my sentiments reflect Cnos.

I'm sure it will be a close run test (maybe), but that'll have no influence on where my loyalties lay.

 

[steve_1979]

Can two ADM10 'slave' units be purchased

No to this question.

and used with an existing integrated/DAC amp from it's pre-outs?

But yes to this question.

The DM10s can be used as 'slave' units in this way if you want. In fact that's exactly how I use mine.

To turn the DM10's into 'slave' units all you need to do is press the 'A1' and 'AV' buttons on the AVI remote control. Once you've selected 'A1' and 'AV' the DM10s function as a pair of regular dumb, fixed volume, active monitors which will only receive an analogue signal via the RCA sockets. They now require an external pre-amp unit to connect your sources to and adjust the volume level with.

All of my sources (computer, record player and an MP3 player) are connected to my Yamaha DSP-E800 receiver which functions as the source selector, DAC and volume control.

I haven't even seen my AVI remote for almost a year. I just pressed 'A1' and 'AV' then packed it away in a cardboard box in the spare room as it isn't needed anymore. I'll probably never need to use the AVI remote control again. I'm happy to just use the DM10s as 'slave' speakers connected to the 'pre-outs' on my Yamaha receiver.

 

[Andrewjvt]

 Last time the DM10 only won because of the speaker stands. This time if all the bases are covered and the DM10s still sound best what can they say then?

I'm not sure that was what was said....and certainly not what I said.

The DM10s may still win, but the ATCs should be given an equal footing.

There are those who get hung up on Blind Testing and volume setting. With me its set up and positioning, with properly run in and warmed up kit....and cables. *diablo*

Out of all people on this forum you are fair and right no question.

When i say people accuse im talking about the evil music creatures not you. People that think only they are right and have a point to prove. They make accusasions as if everything evoles around them and that all findings were made just for them.

Anything you say is taken in the good spirit it was intended.

Hooe that rant makes sense but im braai-ing now

I know Andrew is aiming it at me. I have no point to prove - in fact I took as read that the were better - until I clocked the stands. I'm no expert on stands but the ATCs need a fair shot, given by Andrew's admission they used books to prop the ATCs up. And, a few pages ago, Andrew alluded to having regrets posting the pictures... that tells me a lot IMHO. 

Or in other words my sentiments reflect Cnos.

I'm sure it will be a close run test (maybe), but that'll have no influence on where my loyalties lay.

Come on man that was not aimed at you either.

 

[Morgunner]

Andrew regrets posting the images because it gave the opportunity to find fault where there was none regarding the outcome of the test.

And the mention of loyalty is interesting. AVI users are often accused of being lambs in Ash's heard. I dare say the opposite is true, we have left a heard if ever we were part of one, trusting only our ears and logic (regarding technical issues).

Personally, I spent 20 years in the crowd, constantly upgrading for that short period of satisfaction, again and again, always ending up wanting - and returning to the shop to repent and hand over the cash for absolution. That ended with ADM9s. Their performance didn't convert me, it gave me the assurance to leave the faith. After two decades it took just a couple of minutes. So maybe I was ready. But since then I've had no doubts about not hearing the music right. The music, remember?

 

[lindsayt]

Morgunner, your post and your signature are self-contradictory.

Have you decided to follow the Ashley James example of making misleading marketing statements?

On the one hand, you claim that upgrading ended for you when you bought ADM9's. And yet since buying them it would seem that you have "upgraded" your main (front speakers) to "DM5's" and relegated your ADM9's to rear duties only.

Also, out of interest, over 20 years how many times did you upgrade your turntable and cartridge? And what TT's and cartridges did you have along the way?

I'm just wondering how anyone can end up with a humble £575 (new) Pro-ject and a £110 (new) cartridge after 20 years years of constant upgrading?

 

[spiny norman]

Also, out of interest, over 20 years how many times did you upgrade your turntable and cartridge?

Hang on, I think I know this one! Isn't it 'at least 300 times'?

 

[Frank Harvey]

I'm just wondering how anyone can end up with a humble £575 (new) Pro-ject and a £110 (new) cartridge after 20 years years of constant upgrading?

It's in the 'handy phrase' rule book given out upon initiation

 

[Morgunner]

On the one hand, you claim that upgrading ended for you when you bought ADM9's. And yet since buying them it would seem that you have "upgraded" your main (front speakers) to "DM5's" and relegated your ADM9's to rear duties only.

I'm just wondering how anyone can end up with a humble £575 (new) Pro-ject and a £110 (new) cartridge after 20 years years of constant upgrading?

I guess I should've known this would go off road straight away.

I didn't even have a TT between circa 1988-2008, I only got one (second hand) after getting the ADM9s for nostalgic reasons as I still had a few of my first LPs left as did my wife and also was handed down my fathers small collection. Although I find TT sq suprisingly good considering the tech... no, I'd better not go there.

I've climbed the Naim ladder, gone through many a What Hi-Fi top awarded product, trusted the Man in the shop, believed in the cables.

As for the DM5s, I wanted surround sound for movies and the rather many 5.1 recordings of music I have. Since I needed an AV-receiver there was no point in getting ADM9s or DM10s for the purpose. Comparing the nines to the fives (hopefully the stands were of equal enough quality) I preferred the latter with their slightly smoother highs and deeper soundstage. The sub substitutes the in depth lesser bass performance.

I wish you gentlemen wouldn't insult your own intelligence by jumping into conclusions just for the purpose of nitpicking. Unless of course nitpicking is the purpose. If yes, then be my guest...

 

[davedotco]

Andrew regrets posting the images because it gave the opportunity to find fault where there was none regarding the outcome of the test.

And the mention of loyalty is interesting. AVI users are often accused of being lambs in Ash's heard. I dare say the opposite is true, we have left a heard if ever we were part of one, trusting only our ears and logic (regarding technical issues).

Personally, I spent 20 years in the crowd, constantly upgrading for that short period of satisfaction, again and again, always ending up wanting - and returning to the shop to repent and hand over the cash for absolution. That ended with ADM9s. Their performance didn't convert me, it gave me the assurance to leave the faith. After two decades it took just a couple of minutes. So maybe I was ready. But since then I've had no doubts about not hearing the music right. The music, remember?

Raising your head above the parapet now that the anti-AVI/active forces have reorganised after being placed on the back foot by the original comparisons done at the beginning of this thread.

One of the issues I always try to raise in these discussions is the shear difference in presentation between good actives and the usual suspects forever recommended on here. Most have never heard this so simply do not know that the stand issue, for example, is irrelevant, 'they' simply don't get it.