Tone Controls

[davedotco]

I'm all for hi-fi snobs.

I want a system that, within it's limitations, does it's best to reproduce the music as created and performed. I find the idea of 'tuning' a system, through equipment choice or tone controls so that the sound is more to my 'taste', patently absurd.

I have no problems with eq, though I find conventional tone controls to be fairly useless. I find the (bass) shelving controls found on many active speakers to be useful and the Quad pre-amp eq with Bass eq and Tilt control to be pretty well thought out but regular tone controls have never really helped (me).

It no longer bothers me that some want to 'modify' their systems in this way, this 'if it sounds good, it is good' nonsense may be the modern way but to me it simply misses the point, by quite a long way. But to each his own.

Predominately though it is just a matter of semantics, for me if a system does not do the best it can to recreate the original performance, then it is not hi-fi. It is not really a price thing either, their are some budget components that make a decent stab at hi-fi, but an awful lot just tries to give the mass market what it thinks they want, hence my somewhat jaundiced view on most budget and a fair amount of higher priced equipment.

Predictable? :rofl:

Just consistent.......

 

[Native_bon]

I'm all for hi-fi snobs.

I want a system that, within it's limitations, does it's best to reproduce the music as created and performed. I find the idea of 'tuning' a system, through equipment choice or tone controls so that the sound is more to my 'taste', patently absurd.

I have no problems with eq, though I find conventional tone controls to be fairly useless. I find the (bass) shelving controls found on many active speakers to be useful and the Quad pre-amp eq with Bass eq and Tilt control to be pretty well thought out but regular tone controls have never really helped (me).

It no longer bothers me that some want to 'modify' their systems in this way, this 'if it sounds good, it is good' nonsense may be the modern way but to me it simply misses the point, by quite a long way. But to each his own.

Predominately though it is just a matter of semantics, for me if a system does not do the best it can to recreate the original performance, then it is not hi-fi. It is not really a price thing either, their are some budget components that make a decent stab at hi-fi, but an awful lot just tries to give the mass market what it thinks they want, hence my somewhat jaundiced view on most budget and a fair amount of higher priced equipment.

Predictable? :rofl:

Just consistent.......

fair enough

 

[peterpiper]

It's a bit like seasoning your food. Some people will not use any seasoning at all. Some will taste first and then adjust if necessary and some will automatically season their food regardless.

It is becoming more likely that 'tone' adjustments will happen in the digital domain like in the Creek 50a and the Naim UnitiQute with their 'Switchable Bass Contour Control' - for low-volume listening - that automatically reduces the effect as the volume is raised.

More systems will have such features (and other more useful and more sophisticated DSP modes) as the vestiges of 1980s 'hair shirt hi-fi' thinking disappear and people begin to demand these features in more expensive systems too.

The days of having to adjust the 'character' of a system - whether just for the duration of a track or permanently due to a room change - by expensively changing major components (or endlessly swapping cables to dubious effect) should be over. All this should be within the control of the user. No more debates about 'warm', 'smooth', 'bright', components or 'best system for classical', or 'best system for heavy metal' etc. Just switch it into the appropriate mode (or customise your own) and enjoy.

(I can almost sense the 'purists' frothing at the mouth and stroking their old copies of 'The Flat Response' for comfort!)

I have noticed some of the maunufacterers that wouldnt have put tone controls on their amps are now begining to put some kind of tone altering circuitry in their products, i think these types of things go in circles. I believe omting tone controls is just making believe that you were getting something special and more akin to something high end, more so at the budget end, the manufacterers knew this, supply and demand,

Does adding tone control with defeat switches spoil the sound that much, i doubt it,

I was reading with interest a recent thread, called 'an audtion', in which the amp that seemed to almost wipe the floor with the other more minimalist amps was the one with tone controls, not only that it threw in a midrange adjument too, I think it was a midrange marantz model (8004 ?)

No doubt it was listened to in defeat mode, I was pleased this amp came out on top for this guy, just goes to show you do not need to miss off tone control to make a fine sounding amp,

I would never buy an amp without tone, not because of defiencies in room acoustics or the hardware , but becuses of the recordings themselves,

 

[Native_bon]

The problem with HIFI is, its one of those areas were anything can be said & people will always almost believe what is said. Show me am expensive system it must sound better. Put in tone controls oh no you cnt do that it will mess with the pure sound. Use an AV AMP for music, oh these are rubbish with music. Mains cables, bi amping, ACTIVE, passive, or passive & active speakers.. Really?... I have heard marantz all in one systems sound better than systems costing thousands of pounds and also sound so bad.

Who makes these rules?.. people just like you & me. I think its about time people wake up & smell the coffee. System matching is a form of tone conrtol just an expensive one. Your made to believe its your fault your system sounds bad.. & guess what, yes it is your fault cause you go out & buy the new hifi stuff that is no different from the last, just new tech words to take your money.

Having said that, some expensive items does what it says no the tin, not all.

I dnt tell HIFI nuts how to listen so they should not think they know it all. Cause they learnt these rules from others who made them.

 

[EvPa]

Put in tone controls oh no you cnt do that it will mess with the pure sound.

Most "HiFi nuts" would be horrified to learn what happens to the "pure sound" before it ends up on vinyl/CD/whatever digital format.

 

[letsavit2]

My naim system has no tone controls and I don't feel the need for them, my marantz amps have them and I use them and have the loundness button permanently on, sounds much better.

So in my case the expensive amp doesn't need them, go figure...!

 

[peterpiper]

My naim system has no tone controls and I don't feel the need for them, my marantz amps have them and I use them and have the loundness button permanently on, sounds much better.

So in my case the expensive amp doesn't need them, go figure...!

there are plenty of well designed expensive amps that also sound good, that have tone controls, even though they probably dont need to be used, but the option is there if you want to adjust a poor recording,

i am not surprised the loudness sounds better with small bookshelves at low levels, loudness buttons generally sound saturated to me, if you know what I mean

 

[peterpiper]

My naim system has no tone controls and I don't feel the need for them,

hope you have not got the bass setting on your active BK sub set too high with your naim amp

 

[cheeseboy]

Put in tone controls oh no you cnt do that it will mess with the pure sound.

Most "HiFi nuts" would be horrified to learn what happens to the "pure sound" before it ends up on vinyl/CD/whatever digital format.

soooo true, and it's something I do keep bringing up as well, but alas there will still be people sitting in their living rooms listening to music thinking that somebody has just mic'd it up and done nothing to it and that it's all "natural".

 

[MajorFubar]

Such people may benefit from learning a litte about recording techniques and music production, even if it's only from searching free tutorials on YouTube.

 

[cheeseboy]

Such people may benefit from learning a litte about recording techniques and music production, even if it's only from searching free tutorials on YouTube.

couldn't agree more. Can't help but think that people could benefit immeasurably in their listening from learning a little of how and where the music comes from. After all, couldn't do any harm..... could it???

I guess I just find it a bit disheartening when I read comments on hifi forums etc where people feel free to pass judgement on how things are mixed, and in some cases are just downright rude and abusive, when it's clear they have no idea what actually happens in a studio or how things get from the musician to point whereby one can listen to it at home.

 

[davedotco]

Such people may benefit from learning a litte about recording techniques and music production, even if it's only from searching free tutorials on YouTube.

couldn't agree more. Can't help but think that people could benefit immeasurably in their listening from learning a little of how and where the music comes from. After all, couldn't do any harm..... could it???

I guess I just find it a bit disheartening when I read comments on hifi forums etc where people feel free to pass judgement on how things are mixed, and in some cases are just downright rude and abusive, when it's clear they have no idea what actually happens in a studio or how things get from the musician to point whereby one can listen to it at home.

As someone who has spent rather a lot of time in recording studios I'm not sure that some people are 'rude and abusive' enough.

I guess we are primarily talking about 'popular' music here, which is, in the main entirely 'fabricated'. Instruments recorded in isolation and then 'pan potted' into a stereo mix. Even that kind of recording can sound pretty good if what is actually recorded 'gets on the record' and In my experience there are two 'obstructions' to this actually happening.

Firstly there is the 'production', usually taking place at the mix stage, this is where the producer and/or the band stamp there 'character' on the work, often to the detriment of whatever merit may have been in the original recordings.

The big culprit, in modern recordings anyway, is in the 'mastering', where the final mix is adjusted to fit the format and the market that it is being aimed at. This seems to require producing the loudest possible product, introducing distortion and reducing dynamic range in the process. In the case of vinyl cutting even more restrictions apply, curtailed bass, often mono'ed, HF filtering and limited transients being the most obvious.

Given all the real trash that is produced it is always a pleasant to find a recording that actually sounds good and realistic. When this does happen, it gives a great insight into what is possible, even 'pop' music can sound great when this happens, it is just rather infuriating that it does not happen more often.

 

[MajorFubar]

Supply and demand I guess Dave.

I used to spend quite a bit of time on the Sound On Sound forum which had a number of contributors who were professional producers or mastering engineers. Sometimes you could read between the lines that they weren't always happy with the product they were expected to produce, but their customer (be that the band, the label or whatever) expected a certain sound. Back in the 80s when I studied as a recording engineer I only completed really rudimental mastering training but I recall vividly being told to aim for an average loudness of about -16dB to -14dB RMS for pop music and be sensible with the compressor, it's not there to crush the life out the music but to enhance it. Bet they're not told that now lol.

 

[davedotco]

Supply and demand I guess Dave.

I used to spend quite a bit of time on the Sound On Sound forum which had a number of contributors who were professional producers or mastering engineers. Sometimes you could read between the lines that they weren't always happy with the product they were expected to produce, but their customer (be that the band, the label or whatever) expected a certain sound. Back in the 80s when I studied as a recording engineer I only completed really rudimental mastering training but I recall vividly being told to aim for an average loudness of about -16dB to -14dB RMS for pop music and be sensible with the compressor, it's not there to crush the life out the music but to enhance it. Bet they're not told that now lol.

Quite so.

For a lot of modern 'pop' recordings the sole intention of the mastering engineer is to cram as much level onto the disk as possible.

Back in the days of 45rpm singles (7 and 12 inch) this kind of mastering made some kind of sense, many engineers erred on the side of caution leaving the record sounding thin, weak and anaemic. Watching George (Porkie) Peckham at work at Abbey Road (in the '70s), manually adjusting the groove pitch in real time, was pretty incredible, he was the aknowledged master in those days.

Sadly it all went to pot in later years, he became the man most responsible for the loudness wars of recent years. Sure most of the worst examples come from engineers trying to emulate his work but he really did start the rot....... :doh:

 

[chebby]

Mistaken post.

 

[Native_bon]

Am a producer my self, & the amount of times in studios I see what happens in the final mixes also know as the mastering stage its just unbelievable what is actually done to the final mix. Also there is a method called side chain Compression which a lot of producers use in house, rock or even acid jazz to give the music a compressed pomping effect. Reverb tails also washes out the real sound of instruments in most cases i THINK is over used. The list goes on. In some cases effects can be used in a creative way but most often this is not the case.

So if this all goes on in the production stage why do people get so HANG UP ON CABLES, MAINS, ROOM ACOUTICS, E.T.C. I WOULD GO AS FAR AS TO SAY LESS THAN 5% OF MUSIC PRODUCED WILL GIVE THE REAL THING.

AGAIN THATS A GOOD REASON WHY THERE ARE NO RULES WHEN IT COMES TO LISTENING TO MUSIC AS FAR AS YOU ARE HAPPY WITH THE SOUND YOUR SYSTEM IS PRODUCING.

 

[Vladimir]

I like how you clicked on the LOUDNESS switch at the last 2 paragraphs.

 

[MajorFubar]

side chain Compression

Ugh...nearly every new dance track seems to have to have that these days, where the compressor on the accompaniment bus (or vox-bus even) is triggered by the kick drum on every beat. Is this the same thing they call New York compression? It's bloody horrible and sounds like an over-driven ALC circuit in an old cheap cassette deck.

 

[lpv]

My naim system has no tone controls and I don't feel the need for them, my marantz amps have them and I use them and have the loundness button permanently on, sounds much better.

So in my case the expensive amp doesn't need them, go figure...!

.. so why some amps sound dark the others bright or lean? where it comes from? do they have built in 'tone controls' hidden from the user, set up by component architect and that's what makes so called ' house sound' ? what makes the component sounds different than the other? different parts? they did not manipulate, tuned the sound?

 

[Vladimir]

Its called "voicing" and regarding amps its a feature mostly for the preamp, not as much as the power amp architecture, be it BJT, MOSFET, tube etc.

What can be exciting, transparent and punchy for some, can be bright, brash, fatiguing to others. What some find as beautiful portray of timbre in tubes turns out to be harmonic distortion on the osciloscope.

When you combine a hifi system from speakers, amp, source, cables, you as well voice the final result. Manufacturers voice to market audiences and you do it to your individual preference.

 

[letsavit2]

My naim system has no tone controls and I don't feel the need for them, my marantz amps have them and I use them and have the loundness button permanently on, sounds much better.

So in my case the expensive amp doesn't need them, go figure...!

.. so why some amps sound dark the others bright or lean? where it comes from? do they have built in 'tone controls' hidden from the user, set up by component architect and that's what makes so called ' house sound' ? what makes the component sounds different than the other? different parts? they did not manipulate, tuned the sound?

i don't know, but I do know I like the sound of my naim better and rarely feel it lacks anything. Maybe using the loundness button on my marantz amps with bookshelf speakers gets me closer to the naim sound and floor standers. Ie my own benchmark.

 

[letsavit2]

My naim system has no tone controls and I don't feel the need for them,

hope you have not got the bass setting on your active BK sub set too high with your naim amp

nope 50hz and never further than 9oclock on the gain, anymore is too much. Yes I get what you're saying, the sub is one great big bass tone control! but only really used for my drum and bass electronic stuff so not really trying to listen out for accurate instruments in an orchestra when that's thumping....!

edit; tell a lie feeling the heartbeat on DSOTM is pretty cool too, but don't think much else passes the crossover on that album...!

 

[letsavit2]

Many moons ago I did sell the now legendary pioneer a400 for a marantz amp because I missed tone controls, was much happy with the sound of the marantz with the bass turned up, had some tannoy floorstanders at the time.

 

[lpv]

Its called "voicing" and regarding amps its a feature mostly for the preamp, not as much as the power amp architecture, be it BJT, MOSFET, tube etc.

What can be exciting, transparent and punchy for some, can be bright, brash, fatiguing to others. What some find as beautiful portray of timbre in tubes turns out to be harmonic distortion on the osciloscope.

When you combine a hifi system from speakers, amp, source, cables, you as well voice the final result. Manufacturers voice to market audiences and you do it to your individual preference.

fair enough, is it the so called 'voicing' a chip? an equalizer? a formula added to the preamp? how it's being made/ implemented? would you care to elaborate on that?

 

[cheeseboy]

Given all the real trash that is produced it is always a pleasant to find a recording that actually sounds good and realistic. When this does happen, it gives a great insight into what is possible, even 'pop' music can sound great when this happens, it is just rather infuriating that it does not happen more often.

yup, totally spot on

That's why I like to investigate the often overlooked and much underrated genre of Power Pop. It's pop without the pap