Tone Controls

[Freddy58]

im with you on that one freddy

had a few amps latley with no tone controls,just need the treble knob for pop music ie lady gaga,pink etc whose producers think its cool to destroy the mid range of thre customers vocal content and make my tweeters sound metallic!

I hear you loud and clear on such as this but I think a lot of it's down the average equipment it's been mastered to sound good on. Back in my day when I trained as a recording engineer I did cover the basics of mastering, and back then the idea was you created a sound which was palatable on everything from a small boombox to some lucky sod's Martin Logans. These days I'm not sure that approach stands for 'consumer-grade' music.

I'm thinking personal preferences are utmost? As far as I'm concerned, a bit extra bass here, a bit more treble there, it's my choice. I actually think it's a bit arrogant to not include tone controls by manufacturers.

 

[MajorFubar]

I'm thinking personal preferences are utmost? As far as I'm concerned, a bit extra bass here, a bit more treble there, it's my choice.

No harm in that.

I actually think it's a bit arrogant to not include tone controls by manufacturers.

Nah, no arrogance in their decision, just supply and demand.

 

[Freddy58]

I'm thinking personal preferences are utmost? As far as I'm concerned, a bit extra bass here, a bit more treble there, it's my choice.

No harm in that.

I actually think it's a bit arrogant to not include tone controls by manufacturers.

Nah, no arrogance in their decision, just supply and demand.

Maybe demand would be higher if they included tone controls? Dunno. I just think that manufacturers should make the option available. Maybe they are persuaded by HiFi snobs?

 

[hoojtune73]

tiz a strange one,i was a lad in the 80s with a midi system dreaming of all things naim and linn and how good my now albums would sound source direct and such like,the thing is now having had the hifi experience still really need a little treble attenuation to see off the brightness in its production:dance:

 

[MajorFubar]

Maybe demand would be higher if they included tone controls? Dunno. I just think that manufacturers should make the option available. Maybe they are persuaded by HiFi snobs?

Maybe, but maybe in doing so they'd alienate the demographic/market-sector they built the amps for in the first place, who didn't want tone controls. Which what I meant with supply and demand. Mainsteam Jap manufacturers in the 80s/90s started building amps like the Pioneer A400, Kenwood 3020 and even my own Marantz PM66KI without tone controls not because they were being arrogant but because there was a demand for such a product.

Another driver behind the decline of tone controls was the rise in popularity of amps designed like the Cyrus 1 and 2, which basically were high-sensitivity power-amps with a variable attenuator in front (ie the volume control) and no active pre-amp other than the phono-stage. This kind of design couldn't lend itself easily to having tone controls built into its circuit.

 

[davedotco]

I'm all for hi-fi snobs.

I want a system that, within it's limitations, does it's best to reproduce the music as created and performed. I find the idea of 'tuning' a system, through equipment choice or tone controls so that the sound is more to my 'taste', patently absurd.

I have no problems with eq, though I find conventional tone controls to be fairly useless. I find the (bass) shelving controls found on many active speakers to be useful and the Quad pre-amp eq with Bass eq and Tilt control to be pretty well thought out but regular tone controls have never really helped (me).

It no longer bothers me that some want to 'modify' their systems in this way, this 'if it sounds good, it is good' nonsense may be the modern way but to me it simply misses the point, by quite a long way. But to each his own.

Predominately though it is just a matter of semantics, for me if a system does not do the best it can to recreate the original performance, then it is not hi-fi. It is not really a price thing either, their are some budget components that make a decent stab at hi-fi, but an awful lot just tries to give the mass market what it thinks they want, hence my somewhat jaundiced view on most budget and a fair amount of higher priced equipment.

 

[Freddy58]

As seems to be the case in this thread at least, snobs are in the minority.

 

[davedotco]

Another driver behind the decline of tone controls was the rise in popularity of amps designed like the Cyrus 1 and 2, which basically were high-sensitivity power-amps with a variable attenuator in front (ie the volume control) and no active pre-amp other than the phono-stage. This kind of design couldn't lend itself easily to having tone controls built into its circuit.

Thats an interesting point Major.

I understand how the domination of CD with its 2Volt output standard has lead to the modern style of integrated amplifier, though old style Quad pre-power combos used to interconnect at around 500mV, so high gain power amps are not exactly rare. That said for many years the integrated amplifier did tend to play up the point that it would have separate (in terms of function) pre and power amp sections in one box.

Interesting though, any amp designers out there prepare to 'put us right' on this?

 

[davedotco]

As seems to be the case in this thread at least, snobs are in the minority.

Thanks.

You are unusually complimentary this evening....... :cheers:

 

[Freddy58]

As seems to be the case in this thread at least, snobs are in the minority.

Thanks.

You are unusually complimentary this evening....... :cheers:

Nope, you'm a snob...

 

[davedotco]

As seems to be the case in this thread at least, snobs are in the minority.

Thanks.

You are unusually complimentary this evening....... :cheers:

Nope, you'm a snob...

Exactly the point I was making...... :read:

In case you still don't quite 'get' it, I find it quite a compliment that my view that hi-fi equipment is supposed to reproduce music as created and performed is considered to be snobishness.

I love my music and find that I get more from it when it is reproduced as accurately as possible within the limits of the system and environment, so my system choices are made with that in mind.

As I said I am no longer troubled if others think differently, I do not have to listen to their systems.

 

[Freddy58]

As seems to be the case in this thread at least, snobs are in the minority.

Thanks.

You are unusually complimentary this evening....... :cheers:

Nope, you'm a snob...

Exactly the point I was making...... :read:

In case you still don't quite 'get' it, I find it quite a compliment that my view that hi-fi equipment is supposed to reproduce music as created and performed is considered to be snobishness.

I love my music and find that I get more from it when it is reproduced as accurately as possible within the limits of the system and environment, so my system choices are made with that in mind.

As I said I am no longer troubled if others think differently, I do not have to listen to their systems.

I'm glad that you have attained HiFi eutopia. The rest of us will just have to put up with our inadequacies...

 

[davedotco]

I'm glad that you have attained HiFi eutopia. The rest of us will just have to put up with our inadequacies...

Where an earth are you getting all this from?

I express a view about what I expect from a hi-fi system, go out of my way to make it clear that these are my personal views and that others think differently and you start calling names.

What on earth have I said that upsets you? That I prefer good systems to poor systems? That I find a lot of budget systems unlistenable?

Pray tell......... :type:

 

[MajorFubar]

I understand how the domination of CD with its 2Volt output standard has lead to the modern style of integrated amplifier, though old style Quad pre-power combos used to interconnect at around 500mV, so high gain power amps are not exactly rare.

Correct, the norm for pre-CD line-level was around around 700mV @ 0dB. Also many pre-80 integrated and pre-amps needed circuitry inside to boost the input from DIN level gear, which was very common back then, to even reach that of line level. DIN level was much, much lower than line level and a totally different impedance.

 

[davedotco]

I understand how the domination of CD with its 2Volt output standard has lead to the modern style of integrated amplifier, though old style Quad pre-power combos used to interconnect at around 500mV, so high gain power amps are not exactly rare.

Correct, the norm for pre-CD line-level was around around 700mV @ 0dB. Also many pre-80 integrated and pre-amps needed circuitry inside to boost the input from DIN level gear to evenreach that of the standard line level, which was very common back then. This was much, much lower than line level and a totally different impedance.

In those days (pre CD) line level in hi-fi was not really standardised, neither was the levels between pre and power amps, somewhere between 500 and 1000mv was the norm, line level sensitivity would be around 300mv, power amps around 500mv, but to be honest they were all over the place.

Some of the big US manufacturers standardised on 0dBm, (775mv) but many more on +4dBm about (1750mv) which was usually refered to as 'studio level'.

The studio 'heritage' lives on, 0dBm is defined as that voltage that produces a power of 1 watt into a studio standard 600ohm load. You may still see this quoted on some pro style equipment.

 

[iceman16]

"tone" please I don't know what "tone" means..can you elaborate further please..

 

[MajorFubar]

Yeah, have done. Some of the Studer gear and Ampex gear I used back in the day was studio level. XLR was the common connector of the day of course.

Hated DIN though. Too fiddly to solder and the s/n was usually rubbish.

 

[Vladimir]

I wouldn't say audiophiles to be snobes, just eccentrics. :shame:

Here are the characteristic of eccentrics according to Dr. David Week:

- Nonconforming attitude

- Creative

- Intense curiosity

- Idealistic

- Happy obsession with a hobby or hobbies

- Knew in early childhood that he or she was different from others

- Highly intelligent

- Opinionated

- Outspoken

- Sometimes not interested in the opinions or company of other people

- Mischievous sense of humor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eccentricity_(behavior)

 

[Freddy58]

I'm glad that you have attained HiFi eutopia. The rest of us will just have to put up with our inadequacies...

Where an earth are you getting all this from?

I express a view about what I expect from a hi-fi system, go out of my way to make it clear that these are my personal views and that others think differently and you start calling names.

What on earth have I said that upsets you? That I prefer good systems to poor systems? That I find a lot of budget systems unlistenable?

Pray tell......... :type:

I'm sorry Dave, it's just how you come across, to me...

 

[Singslinger]

I consider tone controls essential for amps in smallish rooms where bass boom could be a problem.

In my setup, I tried taming the boom with all sorts of acoustic padding, panels and sound absorbent materials with only modest success.

Switching to Accuphase amps which have tone controls proved the ideal solution. If there's boom, I simply activate the tone controls and cut the bass. Brilliant and highly recommended.

 

[davedotco]

Yeah, have done. Some of the Studer gear and Ampex gear I used back in the day was studio level. XLR was the common connector of the day of course.

Hated DIN though. Too fiddly to solder and the s/n was usually rubbish.

[/quote

Ahhh, Studer and Ampex........ :wall:

Back then the europeans and the septics could not even agree on the bl**dy pin conections for XLRs. Pin three in europe, two in the states and the uk industry didn't know which way to turn. Don't get me started on the 'fourth' connection....... :hand:

Try miking up a drum kit with a selection of European and US microphones, studio desks might well have a phase switch but live consoles rarely did, the fun we had........ ray:

 

[davedotco]

I consider tone controls essential for amps in smallish rooms where bass boom could be a problem. In my setup, I tried taming the boom with all sorts of acoustic padding, panels and sound absorbent materials with only modest success. Switching to Accuphase amps which have tone controls proved the ideal solution. If there's boom, I simply activate the tone controls and cut the bass. Brilliant and highly recommended.

Good that it worked for you.

I have not had the pleasure of using modern Accuphase so can not comment directly, but speaking generally I find tone controls to broad for effective control of bass issues.

I rather like the Quad system from the 34 pre-amp that I once lived with, a combination of variable contours and low bass filtering, very effective.

 

[chebby]

As I said I am no longer troubled if others think differently, I do not have to listen to their systems.

What system do you listen to?

Last year you told us you were using...

"...an AEX digital out into a cheap Fiio dac to a small pair of active monitors."

... you also told us your 'active monitors' were StudioSpares SN4As ...

http://www.studiospares.com/studio-monitors/studiospares-sn4a-pair/invt/248050

Is this still your current system?

 

[Native_bon]

I'm all for hi-fi snobs.

I want a system that, within it's limitations, does it's best to reproduce the music as created and performed. I find the idea of 'tuning' a system, through equipment choice or tone controls so that the sound is more to my 'taste', patently absurd.

I have no problems with eq, though I find conventional tone controls to be fairly useless. I find the (bass) shelving controls found on many active speakers to be useful and the Quad pre-amp eq with Bass eq and Tilt control to be pretty well thought out but regular tone controls have never really helped (me).

It no longer bothers me that some want to 'modify' their systems in this way, this 'if it sounds good, it is good' nonsense may be the modern way but to me it simply misses the point, by quite a long way. But to each his own.

Predominately though it is just a matter of semantics, for me if a system does not do the best it can to recreate the original performance, then it is not hi-fi. It is not really a price thing either, their are some budget components that make a decent stab at hi-fi, but an awful lot just tries to give the mass market what it thinks they want, hence my somewhat jaundiced view on most budget and a fair amount of higher priced equipment.

Predictable? :rofl:

 

[davedotco]

As I said I am no longer troubled if others think differently, I do not have to listen to their systems.

What system do you listen to?

Last year you told us you were using...

"...an AEX digital out into a cheap Fiio dac to a small pair of active monitors."

... you also told us your 'active monitors' were StudioSpares SN4As ...

http://www.studiospares.com/studio-monitors/studiospares-sn4a-pair/invt/248050

Is this still your current system?

Sort of.

I divide my time between my home in Andalucia and an appartment in west London.

My primary system, in Spain, is a Red Rose 'Baby Reference system', the original one using Audioprism based valve electronics and Bo Bengtsson's early M3 speakers. This one here.

I use the amplifier virtually as a power amplifier, preset the volume and use the digital volume on the Wadia 860 CD player as it is, apart from satelite radio, my only source. The amplifier is used in ultra linear mode all the time and the cables are Red Rose's own.

It plays in a largish, fairly hard room, so I tend to sit quite close to the speakers, which works just fine as the speakers are so open.

When I am in the uk I use what is effectively my desktop system, as noted in your post. Having to spend as much time as we currently do in west London is costing us a fortune so money for hi-fi is tight.

The small active setup was bought precisely because it does not sound like regular budget systems, limitations are pretty obvious and if Mrs DDC stops spending money (holidays and travel mainly, no complaints) i have some nice ideas for improvements.