Tone Controls

[davedotco]

Given all the real trash that is produced it is always a pleasant to find a recording that actually sounds good and realistic. When this does happen, it gives a great insight into what is possible, even 'pop' music can sound great when this happens, it is just rather infuriating that it does not happen more often.

yup, totally spot on

That's why I like to investigate the often overlooked and much underrated genre of Power Pop. It's pop without the pap

Not quite sure what you mean by 'power pop'.

What would your reaction be to my assertion that Jim Steinman should be taken out back of the studio and shot.....!

Could be enlightening......... :?

 

[lpv]

davedotco - would you kindly explain what 'voicing' means and how it is implemented in hifi components?

 

[cheeseboy]

Not quite sure what you mean by 'power pop'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_pop

It's generally what you could call pop music, but actually written by the musicians, not the record companies, so tends to be very catchy and non offensive, but also quite complex musically sometimes with decent lyrics, not stuff written by a random hook generator Probably doesn't describe it very well but have a look at the link for the tip of the iceberg on the people it's referring to.

What would your reaction be to my assertion that Jim Steinman should be taken out back of the studio and shot.....!

Could be enlightening......... :?

I've never really been a fan of Steinman to be honest. Think he's over-rated and a lot of the stuff he does imho is just too safe, easy and pretty poor. So, feel free to take him the back

 

[davedotco]

davedotco - would you kindly explain what 'voicing' means and how it is implemented in hifi components?

Why me?

 

[davedotco]

Not quite sure what you mean by 'power pop'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_pop

It's generally what you could call pop music, but actually written by the musicians, not the record companies, so tends to be very catchy and non offensive, but also quite complex musically sometimes with decent lyrics, not stuff written by a random hook generator Probably doesn't describe it very well but have a look at the link for the tip of the iceberg on the people it's referring to.

What would your reaction be to my assertion that Jim Steinman should be taken out back of the studio and shot.....!

Could be enlightening......... :?

I've never really been a fan of Steinman to be honest. Think he's over-rated and a lot of the stuff he does imho is just too safe, easy and pretty poor. So, feel free to take him the back

On second thoughts, maybe making Bonnie Tyler sound exactly like Meatloaf deserves something rather more extreme.

But then I seem to have strayed from 'power pop' to 'power ballads'......... :?

I quite like 'hi-energy', is that like power pop, only gay? I get easily confused...... :silenced:

 

[cheeseboy]

On second thoughts, maybe making Bonnie Tyler sound exactly like Meatloaf deserves something rather more extreme.

But then I seem to have strayed from 'power pop' to 'power ballads'......... :?

I quite like 'hi-energy', is that like power pop, only gay? I get easily confused...... :silenced:

:rofl: too true

If you, or anybody else fancies having a listen to what I mean by more modern power pop, try a couple of the following as a good starting point:

Brendan Benson - My old, familiar Friend

Jellyfish - Bellybutton

The new Pornographers - Twin cinema

Apples in stereo - The Discovery of A World inside the moone

Cotton Mather - the big picture

Silver sun - silver sun

 

[alienmango]

I listen only ever for fun so I normally run my sub to play at 30hz and below (36db/octave crossover) above and just leave it at 50%-reference just to boost the physical sense of the track, even at low level listening.

Having said that I do leave my nad normally on tone defeat, but often I also lower on the computer eq 77-250hz ish and boost 50 and below....

Just do what is fun for you.

 

[Freddy58]

Let me get this straight, we're knocking one of the best selling albums of all time? (There you are Dave, I've pulled the trigger for you)

 

[proffski]

We are talking Hi-Fi I assume.

Reproducing the ORIGINAL sound as recorded are we not?

That is the original definition I know of.

The very instant you introduce tone controls you also include ‘Group Delay[/b]’ that by definition can only introduce- distortions and maim transient response amongst many other aspects of true signal transfer.

Highest Fidelity is the art of transposing the recorded information EXACTLY as it was.

As soon as you start the odious folly of altering the ORIGINAL you are corrupting the information recorded like it or not.

You do not get artisans leaping onto stage during the concerts in order to “tweak” the sound to suit their tastes so neither should it be so during the transcription of recorded media

 

[pauln]

Opinions differ:

Almost every real room in the real world with real speakers could benefit from a little EQ at low frequencies. One of the greatest mysteries and acts of insanity in the audio business was the deletion of tone controls from hifi amplifiers from about the 1980s with some utterly discreditable mumbo jumbo that 'tone controls are no part of a hifi system'. I can categorically assure you that a properly designed and executed tone control circuit does not degrade the signal quality and never has done; this is extremely easy to prove under blind listening conditions*. Tone controls were deleted from hifi amps as a marketing gimmick to attract a new 'minimalist' consumer away from amps laden with buttons and controls.

* I would also suggest that if you realise just how much 'eq' is applied to every LP, broadcast, DVD, CD you've ever heard (are there any which are not twiddled in some way?) it would put the angst concerning amplifier tone controls into proper perspective. In short: if your amp has a tone control you are more likely to get the best overall fidelity because you can tune the speaker/room interface to suit you. Tone controls empower you not some marketeer who has decided on your behalf that tone controls are evil.

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/showthread.php?466-Tone-controls-equaliser-or-tilt-controls-at-home

Maybe many amps don't have properly designed and implemented tone controls, maybe the distortions introduced are inaudible. Whatever, I'd prefer to have choice rather than be dictated to.

Rather like having salt and pepper on the table in a restaurant really.

 

[davedotco]

Let me get this straight, we're knocking one of the best selling albums of all time? (There you are Dave, I've pulled the trigger for you)

You consider sales numbers to be an indication of artistic merit.....?

I'll give two two arguments to the contrary......

Spice

Girls

I was going to say Dire Straits but on reflection the first album does have some merit...... :doh:

 

[Freddy58]

You consider sales numbers to be an indication of artistic merit.....?

Not as a matter of course, no. I think longevity is an indicator, and one still hears those tunes played quite regularly. The Spice Girls were nothing more than a fashion statement, so no longevity. I wouldn't mind betting that BOOH is out-selling anything the Spice Girls did by some margin, even after all this time. Another thing that needs to be considered imo, is that there was no hype, at least, none that I can remember. Indeed, I only heard it by accident when my B-I-L played it. Sure, it has been played to death, but it still has merit, I think.

 

[Covenanter]

You consider sales numbers to be an indication of artistic merit.....?

Not as a matter of course, no. I think longevity is an indicator, and one still hears those tunes played quite regularly. The Spice Girls were nothing more than a fashion statement, so no longevity. I wouldn't mind betting that BOOH is out-selling anything the Spice Girls did by some margin, even after all this time. Another thing that needs to be considered imo, is that there was no hype, at least, none that I can remember. Indeed, I only heard it by accident when my B-I-L played it. Sure, it has been played to death, but it still has merit, I think.

To display my ignorance what is BOOH?

Chris

 

[Freddy58]

To display my ignorance what is BOOH?

Chris

Bat Out Of Hell

 

[Vladimir]

11 pages went , I don't know if we added this info to the topic. Tone controls on amps were introduced before RIAA standards and they were essential to adapt each publishers variations of cuting and mastering of records. I think that is how tone controls started IIRC. :?

 

[Covenanter]

To display my ignorance what is BOOH?

Chris

Bat Out Of Hell

Ah! Not my thing but as Wikipedia says it has sold 48 million copies it must have something going for it! Out of interest Spice Girls sales are over 80 million apparently but I agree they were a fashion thing, albeit an important one for teenage girls of the time.

Chris

 

[Native_bon]

We are talking Hi-Fi I assume.

Reproducing the ORIGINAL sound as recorded are we not?

That is the original definition I know of.

The very instant you introduce tone controls you also include ‘Group Delay[/b]’ that by definition can only introduce- distortions and maim transient response amongst many other aspects of true signal transfer.

Highest Fidelity is the art of transposing the recorded information EXACTLY as it was.

As soon as you start the odious folly of altering the ORIGINAL you are corrupting the information recorded like it or not.

You do not get artisans leaping onto stage during the concerts in order to “tweak” the sound to suit their tastes so neither should it be so during the transcription of recorded media

How many systems out there can you say does not mess with the original sound even when tone control is defeated. bearing in mind room acoustics, amps, preamps, speakers,, e.t.c.. Really?... Still astonishes me how far we go away from reality.

 

[letsavit2]

We are talking Hi-Fi I assume.

Reproducing the ORIGINAL sound as recorded are we not?

That is the original definition I know of.

The very instant you introduce tone controls you also include ‘Group Delay[/b]’ that by definition can only introduce- distortions and maim transient response amongst many other aspects of true signal transfer.

Highest Fidelity is the art of transposing the recorded information EXACTLY as it was.

As soon as you start the odious folly of altering the ORIGINAL you are corrupting the information recorded like it or not.

You do not get artisans leaping onto stage during the concerts in order to “tweak” the sound to suit their tastes so neither should it be so during the transcription of recorded media

It all goes through electronics before it gets to your hifi though? Highest fidelity, what's that my mate drunk playing his acoustic guitar in my front room?

 

[Vladimir]

We are talking Hi-Fi I assume.

Reproducing the ORIGINAL sound as recorded are we not?

That is the original definition I know of.

The very instant you introduce tone controls you also include ‘Group Delay[/b]’ that by definition can only introduce- distortions and maim transient response amongst many other aspects of true signal transfer.

Highest Fidelity is the art of transposing the recorded information EXACTLY as it was.

As soon as you start the odious folly of altering the ORIGINAL you are corrupting the information recorded like it or not.

You do not get artisans leaping onto stage during the concerts in order to “tweak” the sound to suit their tastes so neither should it be so during the transcription of recorded media

It all goes through electronics before it gets to your hifi though? Highest fidelity, what's that my mate drunk playing his acoustic guitar in my front room?

Actually....

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xpczsc_sabias_music

 

[namefail]

To tone, or not to tone: that is the question:

Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer

The bass and treble of outrageous fortune,

Or to take knobs against a sea of peaks,

And by opposing end them. To standby: to sleep;

 

[Richard Allen]

We are talking Hi-Fi I assume.

Reproducing the ORIGINAL sound as recorded are we not?

That is the original definition I know of.

Highest Fidelity is the art of transposing the recorded information EXACTLY as it was.

As soon as you start the odious folly of altering the ORIGINAL you are corrupting the information recorded like it or not.

But what if that original information is wrong???. As an engineer myself and by reading prevoius posts in this thread, your statements imply that the original recording is "pure". Nothing could be further from the truth and if it were true, all mixing consoles would be built without EQ on all the channels.

As I'm sure Davedotco and Major Fubar and Native bon will enlighten you, the original multitrack recordings done before the mix and/or EQ are, in my experience, dull as dishwater or, to put it another way, flat. You assume in your post that the engineer is beyond reproach. I suspect you may be disappointed in what you find.

 

[cheeseboy]

We are talking Hi-Fi I assume.

Reproducing the ORIGINAL sound as recorded are we not?

That is the original definition I know of.

Have you ever heard a dry mix?

The very instant you introduce tone controls you also include ‘Group Delay’ that by definition can only introduce- distortions and maim transient response amongst many other aspects of true signal transfer.

but it's ok to do it when it's being recorded? If so, then by your logic the signal is already distorted so it shouldn't matter?

Highest Fidelity is the art of transposing the recorded information EXACTLY as it was.

again, I refer to the question, have you ever heard a dry mix? Ie something that was recorded exactly as it was?

As soon as you start the odious folly of altering the ORIGINAL you are corrupting the information recorded like it or not.

odious folly :rofl Please excuse use whilst we do things to our liking and not to the sanctamonious rules of certain individuals so that we suffer to listen to music ;p

You do not get artisans leaping onto stage during the concerts in order to “tweak” the sound to suit their tastes so neither should it be so during the transcription of recorded media

no, you get sound engineers constantly tweaking the eq to make sure the sound is right for the particular venue, so that things don't feed back or get lost in the mix, or to re-compensate when people start coming out as opposed to the sound check. Sometimes the artists insist on certain things being tweaked, yet don't have a clue and it sounds crap. Sometimes it's the sound engineer being crap as well. But to think that when you go to a gig, things get set up and then left and not tweaked is just wrong I'm afriad.

 

[Richard Allen]

We are talking Hi-Fi I assume.

Reproducing the ORIGINAL sound as recorded are we not?

That is the original definition I know of.

Have you ever heard a dry mix?

The very instant you introduce tone controls you also include ‘Group Delay’ that by definition can only introduce- distortions and maim transient response amongst many other aspects of true signal transfer.

but it's ok to do it when it's being recorded? If so, then by your logic the signal is already distorted so it shouldn't matter?

Highest Fidelity is the art of transposing the recorded information EXACTLY as it was.

again, I refer to the question, have you ever heard a dry mix? Ie something that was recorded exactly as it was?

As soon as you start the odious folly of altering the ORIGINAL you are corrupting the information recorded like it or not.

odious folly :rofl Please excuse use whilst we do things to our liking and not to the sanctamonious rules of certain individuals so that we suffer to listen to music ;p

You do not get artisans leaping onto stage during the concerts in order to “tweak” the sound to suit their tastes so neither should it be so during the transcription of recorded media

no, you get sound engineers constantly tweaking the eq to make sure the sound is right for the particular venue, so that things don't feed back or get lost in the mix, or to re-compensate when people start coming out as opposed to the sound check. Sometimes the artists insist on certain things being tweaked, yet don't have a clue and it sounds crap. Sometimes it's the sound engineer being crap as well. But to think that when you go to a gig, things get set up and then left and not tweaked is just wrong I'm afraid.

:clap: +1.

And I have spent many an unhappy hour "tweaking" just as you say. One of the reasons I don't do live work anymore. At least in the studio you have some form of constant whereas live venues can be tedious due to the re-EQ from the ground up due to the venue itself.

Well said Cheeseboy.

 

[davedotco]

:clap: +1.

And I have spent many an unhappy hour "tweaking" just as you say. One of the reasons I don't do live work anymore. At least in the studio you have some form of constant whereas live venues can be tedious due to the re-EQ from the ground up due to the venue itself.

Well said Cheeseboy.

Nah, live sound mixing is way more fun.

Soundcheck is usually a waste of time in terms of balance and eq, the audience change the acoustics out of all proportion and the musicians invariable play and perform differently in front of a live audience.

Can be real 'seat of the pants' stuff, beats recording every time.

As an aside, I think I should have been born 20 years earlier, recording jazz and other popular music live to that new fangled two channel 'stereo' would have been brilliant.

 

[Richard Allen]

:clap: +1.

And I have spent many an unhappy hour "tweaking" just as you say. One of the reasons I don't do live work anymore. At least in the studio you have some form of constant whereas live venues can be tedious due to the re-EQ from the ground up due to the venue itself.

Well said Cheeseboy.

Nah, live sound mixing is way more fun.

Soundcheck is usually a waste of time in terms of balance and eq, the audience change the acoustics out of all proportion and the musicians invariable play and perform differently in front of a live audience.

Can be real 'seat of the pants' stuff, beats recording every time.

As an aside, I think I should have been born 20 years earlier, recording jazz and other popular music live to that new fangled two channel 'stereo' would have been brilliant.

So come on Dave. Thinking cap on n all that eywhat??.

Back to the thread. Tone controls. I think that a traditional baxandall tone stack would be unnecessarily intrusive on the signal path but what about a properly designed 4 band parametric?? Works in the pro domain on channel sections. :?