Tone Controls

[Overdose]

Instead of fretting over tone controls, get a graphic equaliiser and be done, or for those with computer based systems, tweak the EQ to your hearts content.

Just don't pretend it's hi-fi.

While I totally agree with your comment I'd also like to play devils advocate. :twisted:

Say for example you have a badly mastered piece of music with too much treble and you use a graphic equaliser to make it sound more like the original instruments would sound when played. Could that be considered hi fidelity because it's closer to the original sound with the EQ than without?

The fidelity bit relates to the the recording on the disc as is. No-one is ever going to know how the original recording sounded or the individual tracks separately recorded, so regardless of how bad the recording, trying to make it sound better, or what you percieve to be correct, is guesswork at best. The closer to a flat frequency response you go, the higher fidelity the system. To make the playback more to your liking is absolutely fine, but tweaking the output to better satisfy your personal tastes is altering the sound and therefore deviates from that fidelity.

Some people wouldn't like the taste of a neat spirit and so add a mixer. That's fine, but what you end up with might be a rusty nail, as opposed to a fine twelve year old malt, which are entirely different things. If you start off with a rusty nail, It'll be a bit difficult to then turn it back into that single malt.

 

[davedotco]

As far as I can tell the primary use of such controls is to increase bass response, and as you say, hi-fi it is not.

Just out of interest, what can be classed as hi-fi?

Just on the off chance that you are being serious.....

A hi-fi system will, within its limitations, attempt to play back a musical performance in such a way that it gets as close as possible to the original musical event.

Ie, not the 'original music event' plus extra bass.

A key phrase..."within it's limitations". I'd also like to know what the reference/datum point is? How can we know that what we are listening to is even close?

The limitations are primarily financial, a really good system in a decent size room can sound remarkably lifelike.

The reference/datum point is, as always, live music. Yes, I know that many modern recordings are entirely artificial constructs but in this case the 'live musical event' is the vision of the musician/producer. In this case you are making a judgement call on how believable the 'construct' is and this is an area that is open to debate. A decent recording of a real performance is easier, there are plenty of examples around if you take a look.

Oh, sorry Freddy, getting you a bit confused with one of Vlad's posts a bit earlier. Can be a bit of a problem when I get the 'soapbox' out........

 

[Vladimir]

1) I told Freddy not to do it!

2) Tone controls were added to amps in the early introduction to vinyl records since every record label cut their records a bit differently, people needed to adjust their amps for better sound output with each label. When RIAA standard was made, tone controls were obsolete but they stuck because people liked them and they still do. So funny enough their primary intention was to improve fidelity. Huh, go figure.

 

[davedotco]

1) I told Freddy not to do it!

2) Tone controls were added to amps in the early introduction to vinyl records since every record label cut their records a bit differently, people needed to adjust their amps for better sound output with each label. When RIAA standard was made, tone controls were obsolete but they stuck because people liked them and they still do. So funny enough their primary intention was to improve fidelity. Huh, go figure.

True but irrelevant.

As you point out they are no longer needed, but people seem to like them.

No argument there, but as has been said, nothing to do with hi-fi.

 

[Vladimir]

Aha but their is the B&W Curve (Beer and Wine Equalization) which means as you progress into more containers of alcoholic beverages you need to turn up the volume to compensate for overall loss of orientation and sense of space and time. If you go past the full amplifier volume gain you will then start turning up bass, treble and loudness as last resort. It is the only way to hear high fidelity (or the music at all) in moment of complete drunkenness.

 

[davedotco]

Aha but their is the B&W Curve (Beer and Wine Equalization) which means as you progress into more containers of alcoholic beverages you need to turn up the volume to compensate for overall loss of orientation and sense of space and time. If you go past the full amplifier volume gain you will then start turning up bass, treble and loudness as last resort. It is the only way to hear high fidelity (or the music at all) in moment of complete drunkenness.

Like tone controls, mind altering chemicals should be the preserve of the musicians, not the (hi-fi) listener...... :shame:

 

[Freddy58]

a really good system in a decent size room can sound remarkably lifelike.

Yes, but to whose ears? Do you regard your ears as reference?

How can we know what the original live recording sounded like? Sure, it may well sound 'lifelike', but lifelike to who? AFAIC, hifi is just a matter of opinion as there is no real reference point. If there was, we'd all be buying the same components, wouldn't we?

 

[Vladimir]

Hi-Fi is a cruel mistress. :beer:

 

[peterpiper]

As far as I can tell the primary use of such controls is to increase bass response, and as you say, hi-fi it is not.

Just out of interest, what can be classed as hi-fi?

Just on the off chance that you are being serious.....

A hi-fi system will, within its limitations, attempt to play back a musical performance in such a way that it gets as close as possible to the original musical event.

Ie, not the 'original music event' plus extra bass.

the playback equipment and recording process is likely diminish lower frequncies anyway , so its not like the original, it can never be, maybe artificial enhancing the bass gives a sensation of it being more like the original anyway

 

[davedotco]

a really good system in a decent size room can sound remarkably lifelike.

Yes, but to whose ears? Do you regard your ears as reference?

How can we know what the original live recording sounded like? Sure, it may well sound 'lifelike', but lifelike to who? AFAIC, hifi is just a matter of opinion as there is no real reference point. If there was, we'd all be buying the same components, wouldn't we?

As with any subjective matter, the validity of the judgement depends on the knowledge and experience of the listener.

If you are familiar with the sounds of real instruments being played by real people, it takes very little time indeed to sort out what sounds 'real' and what does not.

 

[Freddy58]

a really good system in a decent size room can sound remarkably lifelike.

Yes, but to whose ears? Do you regard your ears as reference?

How can we know what the original live recording sounded like? Sure, it may well sound 'lifelike', but lifelike to who? AFAIC, hifi is just a matter of opinion as there is no real reference point. If there was, we'd all be buying the same components, wouldn't we?

As with any subjective matter, the validity of the judgement depends on the knowledge and experience of the listener.

If you are familiar with the sounds of real instruments being played by real people, it takes very little time indeed to sort out what sounds 'real' and what does not.

Sure I'm familiar with real instruments Only thing is, the bands I listen to tend to play rather loudly. So, to experience it properly, do you advocate turning the dial up to 10?

 

[Overdose]

How can we know what the original live recording sounded like? Sure, it may well sound 'lifelike', but lifelike to who? AFAIC, hifi is just a matter of opinion as there is no real reference point. If there was, we'd all be buying the same components, wouldn't we?

If you knew what you were at, more or less, yes.

 

[unsleepable]

Ok, so in this forum we spend all day talking about how amplifiers, speakers and other hi-fi equipment can be warm, clinical, forward, tiring, dull, musical, wolly, tight, damp… And they we actually go and combine these things together in an attempt to get, through the mix, the sound we look for or we think we should get. Some even add cables to the pot, in search for the last sparkle.

I mean, I am not really into tone controls myself—although I've had them in the past and it could have been that I may even have used them; no witnesses, though. But do you really think that, out of all this, it is in fact tone controls that separate us from what the artist/producer want us to hear?!

I perfectly see the point in turning the "treble" control a tiny bit up, rather than spending £600 per meter on speaker cables…

 

[davedotco]

As far as I can tell the primary use of such controls is to increase bass response, and as you say, hi-fi it is not.

Just out of interest, what can be classed as hi-fi?

Just on the off chance that you are being serious.....

A hi-fi system will, within its limitations, attempt to play back a musical performance in such a way that it gets as close as possible to the original musical event.

Ie, not the 'original music event' plus extra bass.

the playback equipment and recording process is likely diminish lower frequncies anyway , so its not like the original, it can never be, maybe artificial enhancing the bass gives a sensation of it being more like the original anyway

That is a reasonable argument if bass boost is added to material that 'needs' it.

I often recommend the use of inexpensive active speakers with big 8inch bass drivers to users looking for more power and punch on modern 'bass driven' music, gives the playback a real 'club' feel in the home.

The effects on other types of music may not be so effective.

 

[Vladimir]

Whats the point of Hi-Fi and no tone controls if you mostly listen to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXJ67A5pt3U

 

[davedotco]

Whats the point of Hi-Fi and no tone controls if you mostly listen to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXJ67A5pt3U

There isn't any.

Just switch your allegiance to What Boom Box magazine.

 

[Vladimir]

As I said previosly, if you're posh you don't get to have tone controls and you must take your musical listening seriosly. If you like to have fun then turn them knobs all you like and don't spare the B&W curve.

 

[MajorFubar]

Posh people don't have HiFis without tone controls. Posh people hire the artist to play in their lounge.

 

[Richard Allen]

Posh people don't have HiFis without tone controls. Posh people hire the artist to play in their lounge.

Makes a change from golfers teeing off in yours and waking yer cat. :rofl:

 

[Richard Allen]

Whats the point of Hi-Fi and no tone controls if you mostly listen to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXJ67A5pt3U

There isn't any.

Just switch your allegiance to What Boom Box magazine.

I think that there's nothing wrong with tone controls properly designed. For the "purists" amongst us, switch em out!!!. Now, then the comments gonna come up "What's the point in buying something with a feature you're not gonna use?". The same could be said of an amp with 8 inputs and you only ever use 3 of them. They're there if you need them.

 

[davedotco]

Posh people don't have HiFis without tone controls. Posh people hire the artist to play in their lounge.

Back in my days as a dealer, we had a decent size room, over 40 x 30 ft with high ceilings and had live music on a regular basis.

Everything from a string quartet to live rock bands. We must have been very posh......

 

[Vladimir]

Dave still has the need to educate us just like he did with his customers in his Wilmslow Hi-End Audio days in Cheshire.

"No tone controls for you Mr. Ferguson. £5000 USB cable will sort that piano timing issues with a touch of vibrato to the bass clarinet just the way you like it. Here, I'll put the phone next to the speaker so you hear the night-and-day difference. Yes. Yes, it is marvelous, I know. I'll charge it to your card as usual."

 

[davedotco]

Dave still has the need to educate us just like he did with his customers in his Wilmslow Hi-End Audio days in Cheshire.

"No tone controls for you Mr. Ferguson. £5000 USB cable will sort that piano timing issues with a touch of vibrato to the bass clarinet just the way you like it. Here, I'll put the phone next to the speaker so you hear the night-and-day difference. Yes. Yes, it is marvelous, I know. I'll charge it to your card as usual."

What a lovely thought, though sadly I have never been to Cheshire.

I believe it is in what is called 'the Northern Wastelands'.

 

[peterpiper]

Dave still has the need to educate us just like he did with his customers in his Wilmslow Hi-End Audio days in Cheshire.

"No tone controls for you Mr. Ferguson. £5000 USB cable will sort that piano timing issues with a touch of vibrato to the bass clarinet just the way you like it. Here, I'll put the phone next to the speaker so you hear the night-and-day difference. Yes. Yes, it is marvelous, I know. I'll charge it to your card as usual."

What a lovely thought, though sadly I have never been to Cheshire.

I believe it is in what is called 'the Northern Wastelands'.

those 'wastelands' have more millionaires per sq mile than anywhere else in UK

what a vile place it must be

 

[davedotco]

Dave still has the need to educate us just like he did with his customers in his Wilmslow Hi-End Audio days in Cheshire.

"No tone controls for you Mr. Ferguson. £5000 USB cable will sort that piano timing issues with a touch of vibrato to the bass clarinet just the way you like it. Here, I'll put the phone next to the speaker so you hear the night-and-day difference. Yes. Yes, it is marvelous, I know. I'll charge it to your card as usual."

What a lovely thought, though sadly I have never been to Cheshire.

I believe it is in what is called 'the Northern Wastelands'.

those 'wastelands' have more millionaires per sq mile than anywhere else in UK

what a vile place it must be

Actually I was joking, I have friends in both Wilmslow and Chester with whom I used to stay regularly.

Very pleasant to visit, though I never lived there as such.