Tone Controls

[davedotco]

:clap: +1.

And I have spent many an unhappy hour "tweaking" just as you say. One of the reasons I don't do live work anymore. At least in the studio you have some form of constant whereas live venues can be tedious due to the re-EQ from the ground up due to the venue itself.

Well said Cheeseboy.

Nah, live sound mixing is way more fun.

Soundcheck is usually a waste of time in terms of balance and eq, the audience change the acoustics out of all proportion and the musicians invariable play and perform differently in front of a live audience.

Can be real 'seat of the pants' stuff, beats recording every time.

As an aside, I think I should have been born 20 years earlier, recording jazz and other popular music live to that new fangled two channel 'stereo' would have been brilliant.

So come on Dave. Thinking cap on n all that eywhat??.

Back to the thread. Tone controls. I think that a traditional baxandall tone stack would be unnecessarily intrusive on the signal path but what about a properly designed 4 band parametric?? Works in the pro domain on channel sections. :?

I was never a big fan of parametrics, for live (touring) work it is overcomplex and so easy to mess up. My Midas console had a simple 4 way eq, with two sweepable but constant Q mids. Decent high pass filtering too, which I found invaluable.

For home use, I want eq to do two things, firstly to address overall tonal balance, I found the 'Tilt' switch found on some Quad pre-amps to be entirely adequate. I lived with one for a while and used it flat or slight downtilt for classical and talk (radio) and with a slight uptilt on pop and rock. Mid '80s Quad ESLs in a decent sized room, very livable.

Secondly some decent eq at the bass end, primarily to help with room positioning, shelving below about 300hz and decent high pass filtering would be fine. Using a parametric to 'notch out' peaks an fill dips usually causes more trouble than it is worth.

I was never a great fan of the Baxandall circuit, far too much effect in the midband for my taste. I recall a circuit that, applied boost/cut to the frequency extremes at modest settings with the effect spreading more to the midband at more extreme settings, seemed like a good idea but I can not remember details or name, if it had one....... :?

 

[audipheonix]

Does using tone control has any detremental effect on the amp or the speakers?

Could it damage any of the component or make them worst?

 

[Native_bon]

Does using tone control has any detremental effect on the amp or the speakers?

Could it damage any of the component or make them worst?

If you are overcompensating then this could cause demage to your system. -2 or +2 here or there is not a bad thing.

Edit: This could be the case with old or a bad recording. If you are overcompensating then your system is not properly matched for your liking.

 

[Vladimir]

Does using tone control has any detremental effect on the amp or the speakers?

Could it damage any of the component or make them worst?

Yes.

If you use the loudness option on and/or the bass tone control turned up while playing music loud, your amp is working hard to reproduce that lower frequency push on the speaker woofers. A lot of times in difficult transients it may even clip and most people don't notice it.

Simple test would be to compare with and without bass boost 2x30min how the amp dissipates heat. If there is no significan't difference you are probably good to go.

 

[manicm]

We are talking Hi-Fi I assume.

Reproducing the ORIGINAL sound as recorded are we not?

That is the original definition I know of.

Highest Fidelity is the art of transposing the recorded information EXACTLY as it was.

As soon as you start the odious folly of altering the ORIGINAL you are corrupting the information recorded like it or not.

But what if that original information is wrong???. As an engineer myself and by reading prevoius posts in this thread, your statements imply that the original recording is "pure". Nothing could be further from the truth and if it were true, all mixing consoles would be built without EQ on all the channels.

As I'm sure Davedotco and Major Fubar and Native bon will enlighten you, the original multitrack recordings done before the mix and/or EQ are, in my experience, dull as dishwater or, to put it another way, flat. You assume in your post that the engineer is beyond reproach. I suspect you may be disappointed in what you find.

I don't get your point, or you're being disingenuous. The end-product is what it is. The consumer cannot return it on grounds that the recording is shoddy or the engineer screwed up. It is then up to the end-user system to make the most of it, dog's breakfast or not.

I like Ceremonials a lot. And I get many fault it of loudness and/or compression as they do many modern recordings. But for me the music and performance outweigh any recording flaws I may or may not notice. How would I or anybody else know anyway unless you were there right in the studio??

If everyone agreed with you then no music would be purchased or enjoyed at all.

 

[davedotco]

Does using tone control has any detremental effect on the amp or the speakers?

Could it damage any of the component or make them worst?

It is best if you consider tone controls as frequency selective volume controls.

It is worth remembering that if you look at the energy produced by live music, the bulk of the energy is in the region below 500hz, in the case of modern, bass driven material a very high percentage indeed.

In terms of the demands put on an amplifier, turning up the bass is virtually the same as turning up the volume. Both actions draw more power from the amplifier so if you use up your amplifier power by turning up the bass, then that power is not there when you turn up the volume and the amplifier overloads.

As has been discussed mant times on here, an amplifier at or close to overload can and often does behave unpredictably, maybe just losing a bit of control or more seriously, producing sufficient distortion to blow up many speakers.

It's simple enough but rarely commented on by manufacturers, so music enthusiasts who do not have any idea how hi-fi works get confused, particularly if they are trying to build their own system.

 

[cheeseboy]

I don't get your point....

indeedy, you didn't It was in reference to proffski's post which appears to allude to recording something hifi means to mic it up and just hit the record button. this is not what happens, and in some cases couldn't be futher from the truth. If anything your comments should be directed at proffski, not richard allan

 

[Richard Allen]

We are talking Hi-Fi I assume.

Reproducing the ORIGINAL sound as recorded are we not?

That is the original definition I know of.

Highest Fidelity is the art of transposing the recorded information EXACTLY as it was.

As soon as you start the odious folly of altering the ORIGINAL you are corrupting the information recorded like it or not.

But what if that original information is wrong???. As an engineer myself and by reading prevoius posts in this thread, your statements imply that the original recording is "pure". Nothing could be further from the truth and if it were true, all mixing consoles would be built without EQ on all the channels.

As I'm sure Davedotco and Major Fubar and Native bon will enlighten you, the original multitrack recordings done before the mix and/or EQ are, in my experience, dull as dishwater or, to put it another way, flat. You assume in your post that the engineer is beyond reproach. I suspect you may be disappointed in what you find.

I don't get your point, or you're being disingenuous. The end-product is what it is. The consumer cannot return it on grounds that the recording is shoddy or the engineer screwed up. It is then up to the end-user system to make the most of it, dog's breakfast or not.

I like Ceremonials a lot. And I get many fault it of loudness and/or compression as they do many modern recordings. But for me the music and performance outweigh any recording flaws I may or may not notice. How would I or anybody else know anyway unless you were there right in the studio??

If everyone agreed with you then no music would be purchased or enjoyed at all.

And that's exactly my point. You will never know unless you've worked in a studio or indeed done live PA.

The fact of the matter is there's one helluva lot that goes on once the dry mix has been done. In fact the real work begins once you have the dry mix and as cheeseboy says, if you've ever listened to a dry mix then you probably wouldn't think about buying that sound. Now, once the engineer has done his work, that is to say built the track up in layers, height, width, depth, phantom centre image and all that then you start to get the end product which couldn't be more different to the dry take if you tried. Ok. Once the mastering engineer gets his mitts on it THEN it can be screwed up.

The end product is what proffski perceives as THE ORIGINAL and yes, that should be able to be transferred without any further EQ. The fact of the matter is proffski appears to know naff all about the recording industry. A week in a studio control room mixing just one track ( yes, it can take that long ) would open his eyes.

 

[Vladimir]

A Macedonian guitarist Vlatko Stefanovski from the band Leb i Sol uses tone controls all his life on his amps and couldn't live without them. He can set the amp to sound to his liking and style. Greatest musicians all have their unique sound to them, not just style of playing and they invest a lot of time in their career looking for it or maintaining it just right.

But you must not!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnrrHPdqdE0

Cheers Freddy! :cheers:

 

[Freddy58]

Cheers Freddy! :cheers:

:cheers: Mr Impaler

Well, FWIW, here's my impression. The majority of posters seem to think that tone controls are worthwhile (sorry Dave ) Many folks here will say try before you buy, so personal taste seems to be the order of the day, notwithstanding listening situation. Interesting to note another thread on 'voicing' When I finally get around to building my system, tone controls will be a must, which obviously narrows my options, but I'm confident there's something out there for me

 

[Vladimir]

Not having tone controls is posh. Can't beat that argument!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LG12nJqfHc

Peace o/

 

[Freddy58]

Not having tone controls is posh. Can't beat that argument!

Nope, you got me there

 

[lpv]

My ATC's are known for uncoloured, flat and honest sound reproduction.. if I would like to get closer to the sound of ATC with my other set of speakers - Dali's - I'll be need to equalize them in bass section ( +3db at 40, 50, 63, 80 Hz and 1db at 100Hz) and a bit less in treble...

Dali's - you are not honest enough pair of speakers YOU >)

 

[davedotco]

A Macedonian guitarist Vlatko Stefanovski from the band Leb i Sol uses tone controls all his life on his amps and couldn't live without them. He can set the amp to sound to his liking and style. Greatest musicians all have their unique sound to them, not just style of playing and they invest a lot of time in their career looking for it or maintaining it just right.

But you must not!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnrrHPdqdE0

Cheers Freddy! :cheers:

You really don't get it do you, not even close.

Your 'friend' Vlatko, any musician in fact, goes to great length to get the sound that he/she wants.

And you think that legitimises the uneducated use of tone controls in playback....... :doh:

You really could not make it up, as an argument it is simply hysterical........ :rofl:

 

[Overdose]

Instead of fretting over tone controls, get a graphic equaliiser and be done, or for those with computer based systems, tweak the EQ to your hearts content.

Just don't pretend it's hi-fi.

 

[Freddy58]

And you think that legitimises the uneducated use of tone controls in playback....... :doh:

"uneducated"? How much education does one need to get the sound one wants by using tone controls?

 

[davedotco]

Instead of fretting over tone controls, get a graphic equaliiser and be done, or for those with computer based systems, tweak the EQ to your hearts content.

Just don't pretend it's hi-fi.

There is nothing wrong with using a bit of eq to assist playback, it is particularly useful at the bass end where it can be of some help even out the loudspeaker/room interface.

It is simply that no commercial amplifiers, that I know of, have tone controls that are remotely capable of doing any such thing, the Tact Millenium could but I am not aware of a modern equivilent in a stand alone amplifier.

The wide band graphics that are part of software music players are barely any better.

As far as I can tell the primary use of such controls is to increase bass response, and as you say, hi-fi it is not.

 

[Freddy58]

As far as I can tell the primary use of such controls is to increase bass response, and as you say, hi-fi it is not.

Just out of interest, what can be classed as hi-fi?

 

[davedotco]

And you think that legitimises the uneducated use of tone controls in playback....... :doh:

"uneducated"? How much education does one need to get the sound one wants by using tone controls?

It would appear that you really do not understand what you are saying here.

You give an example of a musician going to great lengths to get the sound that he wants you to hear, then you go and turn it into something entirely different, ie the sound that you want.

Do you not see just how incredibly funny that is....... :?

 

[lpv]

Instead of fretting over tone controls, get a graphic equaliiser and be done, or for those with computer based systems, tweak the EQ to your hearts content.

Just don't pretend it's hi-fi.

As far as I can tell the primary use of such controls is to increase bass response, and as you say, hi-fi it is not.

so you don't know much about it don't you?

 

[Freddy58]

You give an example of a musician going to great lengths to get the sound that he wants you to hear, then you go and turn it into something entirely different, ie the sound that you want.

I did ?

 

[steve_1979]

Instead of fretting over tone controls, get a graphic equaliiser and be done, or for those with computer based systems, tweak the EQ to your hearts content.

Just don't pretend it's hi-fi.

While I totally agree with your comment I'd also like to play devils advocate. :twisted:

Say for example you have a badly mastered piece of music with too much treble and you use a graphic equaliser to make it sound more like the original instruments would sound when played. Could that be considered hi fidelity because it's closer to the original sound with the EQ than without?

 

[davedotco]

As far as I can tell the primary use of such controls is to increase bass response, and as you say, hi-fi it is not.

Just out of interest, what can be classed as hi-fi?

Just on the off chance that you are being serious.....

A hi-fi system will, within its limitations, attempt to play back a musical performance in such a way that it gets as close as possible to the original musical event.

Ie, not the 'original music event' plus extra bass.

 

[Freddy58]

As far as I can tell the primary use of such controls is to increase bass response, and as you say, hi-fi it is not.

Just out of interest, what can be classed as hi-fi?

Just on the off chance that you are being serious.....

A hi-fi system will, within its limitations, attempt to play back a musical performance in such a way that it gets as close as possible to the original musical event.

Ie, not the 'original music event' plus extra bass.

A key phrase..."within it's limitations". I'd also like to know what the reference/datum point is? How can we know that what we are listening to is even close?

 

[davedotco]

Instead of fretting over tone controls, get a graphic equaliiser and be done, or for those with computer based systems, tweak the EQ to your hearts content.

Just don't pretend it's hi-fi.

As far as I can tell the primary use of such controls is to increase bass response, and as you say, hi-fi it is not.

so you don't know much about it don't you?

That's a double negative, which means that you are saying "that I do know much about it".

Which I happen to think is correct.

You may not use tone controls in this way, neither do I, but an awful lot of people do exactly that.