Source first still important, dumbed down hifi, or is there a problem with your system?

[Overdose]

There is a huge difference in sound quality between a 320mbps file and a CD. I had Emily from Musical Fidelity round yesterday to demonstrate some new headphones and we tested the difference between CD and Spotify premium.

A/B test: both the Spotify file and the CD go through the DAC on my CDP, Same amp, same volume, same speakers.

Methodology: Fleetwood Mac track started simultaneously on Spotify and CD. Button on the back of the CDP to switch sources.

Result: Spotify, whilst fine sounded incredibly hollow and weedy compared to CD which was warmer, more involving, more detail, more soundstage.

It wasn't even a closely-run thing, there were immediate differences that would be clear to absolutely anyone listening. I've done this on quite a few different albums and the result is always the same.

Congratulations, you and Al are clearly fine examples of Homo superior.

In reality, there are differences between the Ogg Vorbis files on Spotify and accurate rips of exactly the same disc, but they are relatively modest, impossible to pick on some material and usually benign, ie slight losses that do not draw attention to themselves.

The test that you ran is, sadly, meaningless, there are far too many variables in your comparison to be able to conclude anything of consequence.

Too many variables? There was only one variable and that was the source. Everything else was identical, switch directly from one to another, no time lags, switch back, switch again, switch back.

Large differences.

Well, there's the possibility that the levels were different and that the Spotify tracks were of different masters than the CD. People claim 'night and day' differences at even the most inocuous of changes, so a slight level discrepancy would appear as an obvious difference is quality.

 

[BenLaw]

I'd surmise that a good percentage of people just don't consider (and have probably never considered) 'sound quality' to be that significant but have enjoyed listening to music nonetheless

Shocking.

people's insatiable appetite for music rather than an appetite for a musical experience.

I nominate this for most snobbish post of the month. I can't see the difference between these two things. My enjoyment of music is no better than the next person's, however each of chooses to experience it.

 

[JoelSim]

There is a huge difference in sound quality between a 320mbps file and a CD. I had Emily from Musical Fidelity round yesterday to demonstrate some new headphones and we tested the difference between CD and Spotify premium.

A/B test: both the Spotify file and the CD go through the DAC on my CDP, Same amp, same volume, same speakers.

Methodology: Fleetwood Mac track started simultaneously on Spotify and CD. Button on the back of the CDP to switch sources.

Result: Spotify, whilst fine sounded incredibly hollow and weedy compared to CD which was warmer, more involving, more detail, more soundstage.

It wasn't even a closely-run thing, there were immediate differences that would be clear to absolutely anyone listening. I've done this on quite a few different albums and the result is always the same.

Congratulations, you and Al are clearly fine examples of Homo superior.

In reality, there are differences between the Ogg Vorbis files on Spotify and accurate rips of exactly the same disc, but they are relatively modest, impossible to pick on some material and usually benign, ie slight losses that do not draw attention to themselves.

The test that you ran is, sadly, meaningless, there are far too many variables in your comparison to be able to conclude anything of consequence.

Too many variables? There was only one variable and that was the source. Everything else was identical, switch directly from one to another, no time lags, switch back, switch again, switch back.

Large differences.

Well, there's the possibility that the levels were different and that the Spotify tracks were of different masters than the CD. People claim 'night and day' differences at even the most inocuous of changes, so a slight level discrepancy would appear as an obvious difference is quality.

Yes but less so if you have demoed a number of different titles, different genres. Unless Spotify comes as standard with the levels messed around with, does it? I've never changed any settings on Spotify except the volume which is set to max.

 

[Overdose]

There is a huge difference in sound quality between a 320mbps file and a CD. I had Emily from Musical Fidelity round yesterday to demonstrate some new headphones and we tested the difference between CD and Spotify premium.

A/B test: both the Spotify file and the CD go through the DAC on my CDP, Same amp, same volume, same speakers.

Methodology: Fleetwood Mac track started simultaneously on Spotify and CD. Button on the back of the CDP to switch sources.

Result: Spotify, whilst fine sounded incredibly hollow and weedy compared to CD which was warmer, more involving, more detail, more soundstage.

It wasn't even a closely-run thing, there were immediate differences that would be clear to absolutely anyone listening. I've done this on quite a few different albums and the result is always the same.

Congratulations, you and Al are clearly fine examples of Homo superior.

In reality, there are differences between the Ogg Vorbis files on Spotify and accurate rips of exactly the same disc, but they are relatively modest, impossible to pick on some material and usually benign, ie slight losses that do not draw attention to themselves.

The test that you ran is, sadly, meaningless, there are far too many variables in your comparison to be able to conclude anything of consequence.

Too many variables? There was only one variable and that was the source. Everything else was identical, switch directly from one to another, no time lags, switch back, switch again, switch back.

Large differences.

Well, there's the possibility that the levels were different and that the Spotify tracks were of different masters than the CD. People claim 'night and day' differences at even the most inocuous of changes, so a slight level discrepancy would appear as an obvious difference is quality.

Yes but less so if you have demoed a number of different titles, different genres. Unless Spotify comes as standard with the levels messed around with, does it? I've never changed any settings on Spotify except the volume which is set to max.

You misunderstand. Spotify may stream its music at a different level than the next service and whatever device you use to stream Spotify would need to be set to level match any other device going through your DAC.

In addition, tracks not compared from the same verifiable source are quite likely to differ in recording version, so the streamed version of your CD album on Spotify, may well be a different recording altogether.

If you wish to compare like for like, then the best thing to do is to rip a CD and compare the rip to the CD through a comparator such as Foobar. Unless you do this, there is a every likelihood that your files are not of the same source.

 

[The_Lhc]

AFAIK you can't even guarantee that you're getting 320kbps from Spotify Premium. I'd agree that it isn't a fair test, ripping the same track to lossless and mp3 and playing them through the same device (I presume you weren't playing the CDs on the PC for instance?) is the only way to really tell the difference.

 

[JoelSim]

There is a huge difference in sound quality between a 320mbps file and a CD. I had Emily from Musical Fidelity round yesterday to demonstrate some new headphones and we tested the difference between CD and Spotify premium.

A/B test: both the Spotify file and the CD go through the DAC on my CDP, Same amp, same volume, same speakers.

Methodology: Fleetwood Mac track started simultaneously on Spotify and CD. Button on the back of the CDP to switch sources.

Result: Spotify, whilst fine sounded incredibly hollow and weedy compared to CD which was warmer, more involving, more detail, more soundstage.

It wasn't even a closely-run thing, there were immediate differences that would be clear to absolutely anyone listening. I've done this on quite a few different albums and the result is always the same.

Congratulations, you and Al are clearly fine examples of Homo superior.

In reality, there are differences between the Ogg Vorbis files on Spotify and accurate rips of exactly the same disc, but they are relatively modest, impossible to pick on some material and usually benign, ie slight losses that do not draw attention to themselves.

The test that you ran is, sadly, meaningless, there are far too many variables in your comparison to be able to conclude anything of consequence.

Too many variables? There was only one variable and that was the source. Everything else was identical, switch directly from one to another, no time lags, switch back, switch again, switch back.

Large differences.

Well, there's the possibility that the levels were different and that the Spotify tracks were of different masters than the CD. People claim 'night and day' differences at even the most inocuous of changes, so a slight level discrepancy would appear as an obvious difference is quality.

Yes but less so if you have demoed a number of different titles, different genres. Unless Spotify comes as standard with the levels messed around with, does it? I've never changed any settings on Spotify except the volume which is set to max.

You misunderstand. Spotify may stream its music at a different level than the next service and whatever device you use to stream Spotify would need to be set to level match any other device going through your DAC.

In addition, tracks not compared from the same verifiable source are quite likely to differ in recording version, so the streamed version of your CD album on Spotify, may well be a different recording altogether.

If you wish to compare like for like, then the best thing to do is to rip a CD and compare the rip to the CD through a comparator such as Foobar. Unless you do this, there is a every likelihood that your files are not of the same source.

I understand that. But when the difference is so obvious across a whole range of titles/artists it suggests that 320 is plainly not a patch on CD. Especially as the volume was pretty much the same for Spotify and for CD.

I can't be bothered with ripping things tbh, my iTunes library has a grand total of zero tracks in it. Like I say the sound from Spotify is great and these days I'm not particularly interested in critical listening most of the time, I just enjoy the music from whatever source is most convenient. I do, sometimes get the urge to play a CD, late at night, when all is quiet, glass or 12 of red. It is a level above for sure.

 

[John Duncan]

In addition, tracks not compared from the same verifiable source are quite likely to differ in recording version

Which is why I asked to identify an album where the master is known.

 

[Overdose]

I understand that. But when the difference is so obvious across a whole range of titles/artists it suggests that 320 is plainly not a patch on CD. Especially as the volume was pretty much the same for Spotify and for CD.

No, what it suggests is, your methd of playback via Spotify is not as good as your CD. This leaves your system levels and the source/quality of the Spotify files as the variables and most likely cause of any discrepancy.

Besides, if your point that a £10K plus system is required to hear the differences (and I don't believe for one minute that it is the case), then the whole argument is largely moot as far as most of the forum members are concerned.

Anyhow, I think you would find if you could actually be bothered to try a proper comparison of rips rather than to speculate, that the outcome would be somewhat different.

 

[davedotco]

In addition, tracks not compared from the same verifiable source are quite likely to differ in recording version

Which is why I asked to identify an album where the master is known.

I explained why that is extremely difficult and offered an alternative test that would at least show you the exact difference between CD quality (FLAC, WAV, your choice) and 320kbs MP3.

Not Ogg Vorbis I grant you but a simple test that can be done by anyone with a laptop and a reasonable system/headphones.

Once we have established that this difference is pretty small, which it is, then we can look at reasons why spotify sound quality is, perhaps, not as good as it could be for some systems/listeners.

 

[SiUK]

I can't see the difference between these two things.

Having read some of your other contributions on these forums it does not surprise me in the least! And I meant that as rudely as your reply to my post.

My aunt K enjoys music. She has a dinky little off-the-shelf hi-fi that cost her £100 (from somewhere like Curry's I think) years ago and is still going, even covered in thick dust. To her it is amazing thing, because it enables her to listen to her favourite music (about 25 to 30 cds I'd say she has now). The speakers are cheap rubbish that came with it, and are placed side by side on her kitchen table with the box of tricks on top of it. And it sounds flamin' terrible....to my ears. To her it doesn't even figure, not important, it's not about the quality, it's about listening to her music. That's the way she experiences music, and she's satisfied with that, and good luck to her.

My sister says she loves music, but detail or sound quality isn't something she cares much about. I offered to set up a hi-fi for her some years back but she declined when she realised it would mean having equipment in a different part of the living room (her existing speakers were stuffed in between books on shelves of different heights). 'Can't be bothered with that bl**dy nonsense' she said Said she was happy with what she had and where it was....the agro was just too much for her. She has about 400 CDs (lots of box set compilations from markets etc) I reckon...lots of them lying about out of their cases, and most are scratched and badly treated. She cares not. She's lent me CDs (unfortunately), but I've never ever lent her a CD of mine...I buy her CDs instead. I get where she's coming from. To her she has other stuff to concern herself with. Music is on in the background and she'll sing along, bop about even, and good luck to her as well. But that's her experience of music.

My nephew has a smartphone and a laptop with little portable speakers. He has a vast (and growing) collection of music he's downloaded. He can't seem to get get enough of them...he seems to be in competition with his friends. He'll download something on his phone and play it to me through the phone's speaker, and he'll say,"... listen to this". He'll be chuffed with what he's hearing, and isn't at all interested in the quality of sound, he just enjoys downloading the music he and his peers enjoy listening to. He's not switched on to or interested in the hi-fi sound experience at all - and I've no intention of ruining that for him either. If he ever gets the bug then great, if not so what? It's how he enjoys music now.

There is nothing remotely snobbish about what I said. It was an observation...in context.

 

[MajorFubar]

Perhaps someone could suggest a Spotify album and CD which are known to be the same master...

Try:

DSotM 2011 remaster; The Wall 2011 Remaster; Graceland 25th Anniversary. Graceland remaster is especially good IMO.

Kind of relies on the tester having access to at least one of those CDs of course...!

 

[Alec]

Of course, we should really be talking about ogg or mp3, rather than assuming they're the same.

 

[davedotco]

Perhaps someone could suggest a Spotify album and CD which are known to be the same master...

Try:

DSotM 2011 remaster; The Wall 2012 Remaster; Graceland 25th Anniversary Remaster. Graceland remaster is especially good IMO.

Kind of relies on the tester having access to at least one of those CDs of course...!

And relies on Spotify having the same issue of the same disc, ideally from the same production facilities. Not important issues in everyday use but if you are trying to resolve small differences you really need to reduce all the variables.

 

[BenLaw]

I can't see the difference between these two things.

Having read some of your other contributions on these forums it does not surprise me in the least! And I meant that as rudely as your reply to my post.

My aunt K enjoys music. She has a dinky little off-the-shelf hi-fi that cost her £100 (from somewhere like Curry's I think) years ago and is still going, even covered in thick dust. To her it is amazing thing, because it enables her to listen to her favourite music (about 25 to 30 cds I'd say she has now). The speakers are cheap rubbish that came with it, and are placed side by side on her kitchen table with the box of tricks on top of it. And it sounds flamin' terrible....to my ears. To her it doesn't even figure, not important, it's not about the quality, it's about listening to her music. That's the way she experiences music, and she's satisfied with that, and good luck to her.

My sister says she loves music, but detail or sound quality isn't something she cares much about. I offered to set up a hi-fi for her some years back but she declined when she realised it would mean having equipment in a different part of the living room (her existing speakers were stuffed in between books on shelves of different heights). 'Can't be bothered with that bl**dy nonsense' she said Said she was happy with what she had and where it was....the agro was just too much for her. She has about 400 CDs (lots of box set compilations from markets etc) I reckon...lots of them lying about out of their cases, and most are scratched and badly treated. She cares not. She's lent me CDs (unfortunately), but I've never ever lent her a CD of mine...I buy her CDs instead. I get where she's coming from. To her she has other stuff to concern herself with. Music is on in the background and she'll sing along, bop about even, and good luck to her as well. But that's her experience of music.

My nephew has a smartphone and a laptop with little portable speakers. He has a vast (and growing) collection of music he's downloaded. He can't seem to get get enough of them...he seems to be in competition with his friends. He'll download something on his phone and play it to me through the phone's speaker, and he'll say,"... listen to this". He'll be chuffed with what he's hearing, and isn't at all interested in the quality of sound, he just enjoys downloading the music he and his peers enjoy listening to. He's not switched on to or interested in the hi-fi sound experience at all - and I've no intention of ruining that for him either. If he ever gets the bug then great, if not so what? It's how he enjoys music now.

There is nothing remotely snobbish about what I said. It was an observation...in context.

Ok, 2 questions:

If they're listening to music and they're enjoying it as much as you, in what way are they not having a musical experience?

If they're enjoying the music just as much as you but you've spent thousands to do that, who's the idiot? (Nb that's not actually rude to you individually, as I too am the idiot who has spent thousands to enjoy music.)

Btw your last para in relation to your nephew is actually pretty reasonable, in contrast to you earlier snobbish post.

 

[BigH]

Perhaps someone could suggest a Spotify album and CD which are known to be the same master...

Try:

DSotM 2011 remaster; The Wall 2012 Remaster; Graceland 25th Anniversary Remaster. Graceland remaster is especially good IMO.

Kind of relies on the tester having access to at least one of those CDs of course...!

And relies on Spotify having the same issue of the same disc, ideally from the same production facilities. Not important issues in everyday use but if you are trying to resolve small differences you really need to reduce all the variables.

Yes there are at least 2 pressings of DSotM 2011 remaster; a USA and a European one, so you don't know which version spotify has?

 

[davedotco]

Perhaps someone could suggest a Spotify album and CD which are known to be the same master...

Try:

DSotM 2011 remaster; The Wall 2012 Remaster; Graceland 25th Anniversary Remaster. Graceland remaster is especially good IMO.

Kind of relies on the tester having access to at least one of those CDs of course...!

And relies on Spotify having the same issue of the same disc, ideally from the same production facilities. Not important issues in everyday use but if you are trying to resolve small differences you really need to reduce all the variables.

Yes there are at least 2 pressings of DSotM 2011 remaster; a USA and a European one, so you don't know which version spotify has?

If you are asking then the answer is no. Do you know?

I would think something rather more obscure would be more appropriate, maybe only a single production run.

 

[Overdose]

Regional mixes of the same master/album can differ quite noticeably.

 

[TrevC]

I've just compared Spotify on my HTC mobile phone to a CD, listening on the same AKG 550 headphones. The phone sounds better.

 

[BigH]

Maybe pick a lesser known artist that has only had 1 cd pressed. Or pick some Linn cds? Some of their lessen known artists are on spotify, someone like Emily Barker & The Red Clay Halo.

 

[SiUK]

in contrast to you earlier snobbish post.

My, my, your manners quotient really is very low! Either you just enjoy being fractious and combative or you really are lacking elsewhere as well - if you get my drift. Either way, we clearly are two souls on this planet that aren't meant to communicate with other, and as world peace doesn't depend on us doing so, I think it better if we avoided each others' posts in future. The board is big enough, and there are plenty of other members' posts here you can take the wrong way if you choose to, so you won't miss mine (and I certainly won't miss yours).

Sayonara, Ben xx

 

[BenLaw]

in contrast to you earlier snobbish post.

My, my, your manners quotient really is very low! Either you just enjoy being fractious and combative or you really are lacking elsewhere as well - if you get my drift. Either way, we clearly are two souls on this planet that aren't meant to communicate with other, and as world peace doesn't depend on us doing so, I think it better if we avoided each others' posts in future. The board is big enough, and there are plenty of other members' posts here you can take the wrong way if you choose to, so you won't miss mine (and I certainly won't miss yours).

Sayonara, Ben xx

Subject to the house rules and moderation, I won't be dictated to what I post in response to or the opinions that I have. You're obviously more than welcome not to respond to my posts.

 

[JoelSim]

I've just compared Spotify on my HTC mobile phone to a CD, listening on the same AKG 550 headphones. The phone sounds better.

That explains many things Trev :bounce:

 

[JoelSim]

Having done A-Level maths, to my mind, on the balance of probabilities, from what I have heard, 320kbps is not anywhere near CD. Absolutely fine for everyday listening, but if you are looking at a comparison you can do better.

Buy some buffalo mozzarella from Sainsburys and it will taste lovely. Buy some top notch from Borough Market and you will be shocked at just how good it can be. That doesn't mean to say that the Sainsburys version isn't nice, because it is.

Most people here won't get that as Borough isn't in their locality, but my ex missus worked for a mate on the pitch and used to bring some back every saturday and it was just devine. Apples for pears.

 

[TrevC]

I've just compared Spotify on my HTC mobile phone to a CD, listening on the same AKG 550 headphones. The phone sounds better.

That explains many things Trev :bounce:

What does it explain?

OK, I'll tell you why it sounds better. The CD player doesn't have bass boost eq.

 

[John Duncan]

So in order for Joel to determine whether CD sounds better than Spotify, he needs to find a disk of a known master which was produced at the same pressing plant as the one that Spotify has. Does it have to be pressed on the same day?

And people wonder why I can't be EDITEDed with ABX testing. I'm out.