Source first still important, dumbed down hifi, or is there a problem with your system?

altruistic.lemon

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I do wonder, especially since the rise of 320 kbps streaming. I mean, I can clearly hear differences between 320 kbps files and CDs, so it's a surprise so many say it doesn't matter and it sounds the same. There's a school of thought that all DACs sound the same, too, which isn't my experience.

Beginning to think the problem is further down the line, and maybe the amp or speakers aren't good enough to reveal the differences. Either that, or we've learnt to accept dumbed down hifi.
 

BigH

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Where are you hearing these 320k files from? Are they exactly the same album. I have compared some like Bob Marley's Exodus and can't hear a difference. Maybe I need a more revealing cd player? I think much is down the recording and mastering, I have found on the better recording the differences are not great but on the poorer ones its more obvious.
 

davedotco

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altruistic.lemon said:
I do wonder, especially since the rise of 320 kbps streaming. I mean, I can clearly hear differences between 320 kbps files and CDs, so it's a surprise so many say it doesn't matter and it sounds the same. There's a school of thought that all DACs sound the same, too, which isn't my experience.

Beginning to think the problem is further down the line, and maybe the amp or speakers aren't good enough to reveal the differences. Either that, or we've learnt to accept dumbed down hifi.

Actually, I think we have learnt to accept 'dumbed down' music, both in terms of musical content and production values.

The production quality of many modern recordings are so awful, processed and downright crass that the playback quality barely impacts on the (lack of) musical experience.
 

BigH

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altruistic.lemon said:
Ripped CDs, so the same mastering. Maybe I mean 320 kb? Not big on computers, but, anyway, there's clear differences.

Im no expert but it may depend on how you rip them. Ive done some bit perfect rips which are supposed to be better than the cd but I can't hear the difference.
 

MajorFubar

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There are differences, but what digital has done is raise the lower threshold. 320kbit MP3s played on the cheapest naffest unbranded MP3 player from some slave-staffed sweatshop in the Far East sounds a billion times better than the worst record players and cassette players of yesterday. In that respect the source is less important than it was. With analogue sources it was all about quality engineering, which didn't come cheap. Even with CDs, this was true to a certain extent. Whereas the electronics manufacturers can make acceptible-sounding DACs, streamers and MP3 players all day.
 

chebby

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MajorFubar said:
There are differences, but what digital has done is raise the lower threshold. 320kbit MP3s from the cheapest naffest unbranded MP3 player from some slave-staffed sweatshop in the far east sounds a billion times better than the worst record players and cassette players of yesterday.

No, no, no!

Everyone knows that we all had EMTs and Garrard 301s and SME tonearms with our Ferrograph open-reel recorders back in those days! (Ok some of the poorer folk had to make do with Quad and Sugden and other such 'tat'.)

Generally speaking it was a 'golden age' (before digital) and we only pick the finest examples of their era and pretend everyone back then had such a system.

Otherwise our 'dumbing down' comparisons start to look very shaky in the harsh light of reality (and chipped ceramic stylii held down with pennies and Sellotape.)
 

SiUK

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altruistic.lemon said:
Hang on, we're talking HiFi, I hope.

When I read that my brain transposed Hi-Fi with testiculi..well the Anglo Saxon word for testiculi used in Britain. :grin:

(not attempting to taking the riddle, altruistic.lemon. Just found it funny, given the topic of the 'talk' ;) )
 

cheeseboy

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altruistic.lemon said:
so it's a surprise so many say it doesn't matter and it sounds the same.

why is it a surprise though? Some people can't hear the difference and some don't care. Don't be surprised, just accept it.
 

Alec

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cheeseboy said:
altruistic.lemon said:
so it's a surprise so many say it doesn't matter and it sounds the same.

why is it a surprise though? Some people can't hear the difference and some don't care. Don't be surprised, just accept it.

Aye.

Of course, it is possible that Mr Lemon has vastly superior hearing to most...
 

TrevC

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Sorry, but I don't believe these golden eared claims about encoding, especially when you consider they are usually the same people that claim they hear differences in things like interconnects and, the most absurd of all, mains leads. If you listen on speakers, even the best available, you are listening to a device that distorts the sound far more than anything else in the chain, with the possible exception of vinyl.
 

Alec

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TrevC said:
Sorry, but I don't believe these golden eared claims about encoding, especially when you consider they are usually the same people that claim they hear differences in things like interconnects and, the most absurd of all, mains leads. If you listen on speakers, even the best available, you are listening to a device that distorts the sound far more than anything else in the chain, with the possible exception of vinyl.

And tapes. No one ever mentions tapes.
 

altruistic.lemon

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Alec said:
cheeseboy said:
altruistic.lemon said:
so it's a surprise so many say it doesn't matter and it sounds the same.

why is it a surprise though? Some people can't hear the difference and some don't care. Don't be surprised, just accept it.

Aye.

Of course, it is possible that Mr Lemon has vastly superior hearing to most...

Not at all, but they probably measure higher than your intellect :)
 

Alec

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altruistic.lemon said:
Alec said:
cheeseboy said:
altruistic.lemon said:
so it's a surprise so many say it doesn't matter and it sounds the same.

why is it a surprise though? Some people can't hear the difference and some don't care. Don't be surprised, just accept it.

Aye.

Of course, it is possible that Mr Lemon has vastly superior hearing to most...

Not at all, but they probably measure higher than your intellect :)

No need for that, my point was entirely serious, though it may have helped you understand that if I hadn't used an ellipsis.

EDITED for typo.

EDITED AGAIN.
 

bluedroog

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I think it is really a change of emphasis rather than to say source isn’t important. DAC is a fairly mature technology these days and as such you can get very competent conversion for peanuts, while improvements can be had the law of diminishing returns is more obvious now then it once was. I think most people accept for a couple hundred quid you can get a very capable DAC, of course for £500 you can get a better one but you’re going to hear more difference if you add that budget to your speakers.
 

JoelSim

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There is a huge difference in sound quality between a 320mbps file and a CD. I had Emily from Musical Fidelity round yesterday to demonstrate some new headphones and we tested the difference between CD and Spotify premium.

A/B test: both the Spotify file and the CD go through the DAC on my CDP, Same amp, same volume, same speakers.

Methodology: Fleetwood Mac track started simultaneously on Spotify and CD. Button on the back of the CDP to switch sources.

Result: Spotify, whilst fine sounded incredibly hollow and weedy compared to CD which was warmer, more involving, more detail, more soundstage.

It wasn't even a closely-run thing, there were immediate differences that would be clear to absolutely anyone listening. I've done this on quite a few different albums and the result is always the same.
 

davedotco

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JoelSim said:
There is a huge difference in sound quality between a 320mbps file and a CD. I had Emily from Musical Fidelity round yesterday to demonstrate some new headphones and we tested the difference between CD and Spotify premium.

A/B test: both the Spotify file and the CD go through the DAC on my CDP, Same amp, same volume, same speakers.

Methodology: Fleetwood Mac track started simultaneously on Spotify and CD. Button on the back of the CDP to switch sources.

Result: Spotify, whilst fine sounded incredibly hollow and weedy compared to CD which was warmer, more involving, more detail, more soundstage.

It wasn't even a closely-run thing, there were immediate differences that would be clear to absolutely anyone listening. I've done this on quite a few different albums and the result is always the same.

Congratulations, you and Al are clearly fine examples of Homo superior.

In reality, there are differences between the Ogg Vorbis files on Spotify and accurate rips of exactly the same disc, but they are relatively modest, impossible to pick on some material and usually benign, ie slight losses that do not draw attention to themselves.

The test that you ran is, sadly, meaningless, there are far too many variables in your comparison to be able to conclude anything of consequence.
 

JoelSim

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davedotco said:
JoelSim said:
There is a huge difference in sound quality between a 320mbps file and a CD. I had Emily from Musical Fidelity round yesterday to demonstrate some new headphones and we tested the difference between CD and Spotify premium.

A/B test: both the Spotify file and the CD go through the DAC on my CDP, Same amp, same volume, same speakers.

Methodology: Fleetwood Mac track started simultaneously on Spotify and CD. Button on the back of the CDP to switch sources.

Result: Spotify, whilst fine sounded incredibly hollow and weedy compared to CD which was warmer, more involving, more detail, more soundstage.

It wasn't even a closely-run thing, there were immediate differences that would be clear to absolutely anyone listening. I've done this on quite a few different albums and the result is always the same.

Congratulations, you and Al are clearly fine examples of Homo superior.

In reality, there are differences between the Ogg Vorbis files on Spotify and accurate rips of exactly the same disc, but they are relatively modest, impossible to pick on some material and usually benign, ie slight losses that do not draw attention to themselves.

The test that you ran is, sadly, meaningless, there are far too many variables in your comparison to be able to conclude anything of consequence.

Too many variables? There was only one variable and that was the source. Everything else was identical, switch directly from one to another, no time lags, switch back, switch again, switch back.

Large differences.
 

byakuya83

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altruistic.lemon said:
I do wonder, especially since the rise of 320 kbps streaming. I mean, I can clearly hear differences between 320 kbps files and CDs, so it's a surprise so many say it doesn't matter and it sounds the same. There's a school of thought that all DACs sound the same, too, which isn't my experience.

Beginning to think the problem is further down the line, and maybe the amp or speakers aren't good enough to reveal the differences. Either that, or we've learnt to accept dumbed down hifi.

I can't hear the differences so to me it doesn't matter.

I hope you don't mind.
 

TrevC

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JoelSim said:
davedotco said:
JoelSim said:
There is a huge difference in sound quality between a 320mbps file and a CD. I had Emily from Musical Fidelity round yesterday to demonstrate some new headphones and we tested the difference between CD and Spotify premium.

A/B test: both the Spotify file and the CD go through the DAC on my CDP, Same amp, same volume, same speakers.

Methodology: Fleetwood Mac track started simultaneously on Spotify and CD. Button on the back of the CDP to switch sources.

Result: Spotify, whilst fine sounded incredibly hollow and weedy compared to CD which was warmer, more involving, more detail, more soundstage.

It wasn't even a closely-run thing, there were immediate differences that would be clear to absolutely anyone listening. I've done this on quite a few different albums and the result is always the same.

Congratulations, you and Al are clearly fine examples of Homo superior.

In reality, there are differences between the Ogg Vorbis files on Spotify and accurate rips of exactly the same disc, but they are relatively modest, impossible to pick on some material and usually benign, ie slight losses that do not draw attention to themselves.

The test that you ran is, sadly, meaningless, there are far too many variables in your comparison to be able to conclude anything of consequence.

Too many variables? There was only one variable and that was the source. Everything else was identical, switch directly from one to another, no time lags, switch back, switch again, switch back.

Large differences.

Just like the ones in mains leads and conditioners? ;)
 

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