cables & blocks confusion

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John Duncan

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Jan 8, 2008
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[quote user="Eddy Current"]
[quote user="professorhat"]if they do, they're scared they might find it does make a difference[/quote]

It's more a case of knowing it won't.

Interconnects and especially speaker cables could and do quite often make a difference, but you seem completely unable to grasp why that is a completely different case to mains leads.
emotion-40.gif


[/quote]

Maybe you could explain why, scientifically, then. Seeing as you know about electronics.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
[quote user="JohnDuncan"][quote user="doc42"][quote user="JohnDuncan"]Einstein disproved Newton.

I'm not sure we're comparing apples with apples here though...........[/quote]

http://royalsociety.org/news.asp?id=3880
[/quote]

Or, to continue a more appropriate line of argument - I said that Einstein disproved Newton's Universal Law of Gravitation (by finding a counterexample), I didn't say that Einstein's dad was bigger then Newton's dad, or indeed that one could 'have' the other.[/quote]

Just wondering if you understand the concept of a joke?
 

a91gti

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My cables were made by myself with materials I either already had or were given by friends, so I wasted no money. Given that I look on this HIFI thing as a hobby I feel that I did not waste the little time I spent soldering or cutting. I have a system that cost less than £200 and thanks to my time spent on tweaks(cables and internal mods) it is easily as good as a system costing £2000. If thats a waste of anything I am happy to be a wastrel.
 

a91gti

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May I add my thanks to the WhatHIFI folks for allowing this thread to persist as it has provided me and I am sure others with a few laughs!
 

professorhat

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Been very quiet on this front now for a while... I'll admit, I was a little sarcastic on my earlier responses, but I am genuinely interested in hearing the scientific basis on why upgraded power cables can't make a difference.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
[quote user="professorhat"]Been very quiet on this front now for a while... I'll admit, I was a little sarcastic on my earlier responses, but I am genuinely interested in hearing the scientific basis on why upgraded power cables can't make a difference.[/quote]

I have this feeling that there are a lot of people out there itching to respond to whatever answer is posted to this question. I already know that the general gist will be that science cannot explain everything. The human ear is complex etc. People will waffle on about skin effects, cross talk and lots of other stuff they know little about. There will also be the stock answers along the lines of "well I tried it and it worked - so did my mate, and I don't care what you say etc". The editorial team will no doubt say something along the lines of "why not just try it - you can always get your money back if it doesn't work" etc.

So, I am very tempted not to bother because I think it is a lost cause. However, you did say that you were genuinely interested and whilst your post specifically mentioned power cables only, the following addresses the issue of cables and conditioners.

Please also note that I would always advocate the use of some sort of protection against surges and spikes which can damage equipment.

Please also not that nobody claims that power cables and conditioners can make NO difference, it is just that any differences are almost immeasurable and are so small as to be indectable to the human ear.

I should also add that the following text is not mine. I have copied it from another source but as it is in the public domain, I'm sure the author won't mind if it is reproduced here. So here goes....

This is a fascinating issue! Both from a purely technical point of view, and as a commercial and psychological phenomenon.

If we break the technical aspect down a bit just to find out how much of improvement we could expect from changing power cord, or connecting a mains conditioner:

The regular mains voltage is (should be) a 50 Hz sinus, without overtones. The 50 Hz tone itself should be considered pure hum, since it has to be rectified and filtered to stop it from entering the signal path, within every device using it as a power supply.

Using an average amplifier in this example we would get something like this:

230 volts of alternating voltage feeds into the power supply. This voltage is rectified, and fed into the capacitor reservoir resulting in a typical 100 Hz ripple of below 0.1-0.5 volts superimposed onto the DC supply voltage that feeds the amplifier itself.
At full load, this ripple increases as the capacitors drain more quickly between 100 Hz cycles, typical value would be somewhere around 2-3 volts depending on the size of the capacitance used.

The amplifier itself uses open loop/closed loop gain. The open loop gain is the total amount of amplification without negative feedback implemented. Many manufacturers maximize this value and end up in the region of 100 000 times, where it is limited to avoid problems with oscillation etc. The closed loop gain determines the sensitivity of the amp. Normally, an amplification of about 40 dB is used (100 times).

The ratio between open loop/closed loop gain determines the dampening coefficient, or the factor which supply interference is reduced.
Most amps have dampening factors exceeding 100 times.

In our example, the (open loop gain/closed loop gain) comes to 1000, thus reducing supply noise with a factor 1000.

If there is 0.1 volts of supply hum when the amp is adling, the remaining output to the speakers will be about 0.1/1000= 0.0001 volts, or 0.1 mV which is not audible.

At full load, the hum voltage increases to letïs say 3 volts, resulting in an output hum level of 3/1000=3 mV, which could be audible when there is no sound, but not when the amplifier is putting out full power.

To put things in perspective, the full 230 volts of pure hum results in a few millivolts of hardly audible hum fed into the speakers. That gives us a total dampening factor of 230/0.003= 76666 times, worst case (full load)

This is how many times any incoming interefence will be reduce by before entering the speakers.

Now, if we measure the contents of other interference that may exist in the mains power, they are fractional compared to the full 230 volts. Letïs say we have a overtone at 200 Hz, at a level of 3 volts in the mains grid. This is probably not even possible, but we can use it to calculate the result.

3 volts, divided by our total dampening factor of 76000 comes to 0.0000391 volts of interference output into the speakers, almost garantueed not to be audible in a normal speaker, at least not compared to the 50-60 volts put out by the amp at the same time.

Now the interesting part arrives:

Letïs say a good mains conditioner can reduce the 3 volts of interference by a factor 10, the remaining amount is 0.3 volts. This amount reduced by the same dampening factor as above comes to 0.00000391 volts of remaining interference voltage.

Summing up the components gives us:

60 volts of total musical voltage put out by the amplifier at full power, plus 0.0000391 volts of interference equals 60.0000391 volts. This is without the conditioner.

With the conditioner the numbers would be 60.00000391 volts, a difference of 0.00003519 volts, or 0.00003519/60=0.0000005865 = 0.00005865 percent! And this is at full amplifier load.....

My personal conclusion, the aspect of filtering the mains is purely a commercial and psychological issue. Speaker cables and signal cables are placed in the direct signal path. Their influence of the sound is well known, but power cords and mains conditioners are not placed in a direct signal path, but rather subjects to the following equipments many ways of reducing noise. The effect of these devices are reduced by the same factor, in our example 76666 times.

Replacing a carpet, washing the ears or having a drink will probably make a much bigger difference.
 

professorhat

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Dec 28, 2007
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Thanks for this. Unfortunately for me (and please don't take this as a criticism of the evidence you've presented above), the majority of the above does mean very little to me. I understand the concept it's talking about in terms of, according to the numbers presented in the above article, the interference in these cables is very small, thus a conditioner / better cable reducing this interference isn't likely to be heard (though I do notice his qualifier almost guaranteed not to be audible in a normal speaker which suggests the author himself hasn't entirely convinced himself enough to say 100% guaranteed!). What I don't understand unfortunately is, how he arrived at these numbers in the first place. I also just have to take his word that this difference is not audible since he doesn't present any source where this is discussed and proven.

I guess if you have a better understanding than me of electronics, this might be simple, but unfortunately, it still seems to me that as a layman, I have to either trust the person who wrote the above article in that his figures and theories are correct, or I have to trust someone who has performed several double blind tests and insists he / she can tell a difference in sound each time (which has obviously been verified by someone else). As a neutral observer therefore, I still don't have the 100% answer either way I need...

It's probably worth summing up where this leaves me. Though I would really like to believe you at face value, I can't do this as I don't comprehend the argument for myself. I also can't believe those who say they can hear a difference at face value since I've not seen any evidence of this either (for myself). Since I also have no argument against either side as well, all I can do now is listen to an upgraded cable myself and see if I can hear a difference (after all, this is really the only action I can take to decide this for myself). Now if I don't (as according to the science above I shouldn't), I can send the cable back and get my money back, and be happy that, whatever the reason, upgraded mains cables / conditioners are not for me. On the other hand, if I do hear an improvement, then this is excellent news for me. Now, if I'm still taking both sides at face value, I have to assume this is the placebo effect (NOTE - this doesn't mean I'm saying it is, I'm just commenting on what I have to think if I assume both sides are right!). The question is then, is the amount of money I'm spending for this placebo effect worth it to me? Probably yes. After all, if I was ill and took a placebo and it made me better, I'd think that was money well spent, even if no one understood scientifically why it made me feel better! So I would probably stick with the cable and be happy. Can you see my point?

Thank you for the input as well - it's been interesting!
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Well I'm glad you didn't dismis my post as a load of technical hogwash or claim that I was trying to blind you science. Unfortunately, there is no simple way to explain such things.

Personally I believe that people fall into two broad categories. Those with a sort of logical scientific bent, and those with a more artistic trait. I think I fall into the former category and like eveything to be either black or white and have a logical explanation which can be shown with figures or other scientific data. This makes it difficult for me to understand "conceptual" type of thinking. With hi-fi, terms such as "transparent" or "colourful" have no meaning to me with regard to how a system sounds, just as some of the above terms may have no meaning to you. I beleive this difference in the way we think is what can lead to so much acrimony in debates about cables for example. Either side is totally convinced that the other side is wrong, and neither side can understand how the other side can remain unconvinced of the "evidence". Probably best if we all just keep shut and let people make up their own minds. The trouble with that is the power of advertising but that's a whole new can of worms............
 

a91gti

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"Probably best if we all just keep shut and let people make up their own minds."
Amen brother!
 

John Duncan

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Jan 8, 2008
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[quote user="doc42"]
[quote user="professorhat"]Been very quiet on this front now for a while... I'll admit, I was a little sarcastic on my earlier responses, but I am genuinely interested in hearing the scientific basis on why upgraded power cables can't make a difference.[/quote]

I have this feeling that there are a lot of people out there itching to respond to whatever answer is posted to this question. I already know that the general gist will be that science cannot explain everything. The human ear is complex etc. People will waffle on about skin effects, cross talk and lots of other stuff they know little about. There will also be the st

[SNIP = ETC ETC]

With the conditioner the numbers would be 60.00000391 volts, a difference of 0.00003519 volts, or 0.00003519/60=0.0000005865 = 0.00005865 percent! And this is at full amplifier load.....

My personal conclusion, the aspect of filtering the mains is purely a commercial and psychological issue. Speaker cables and signal cables are placed in the direct signal path. Their influence of the sound is well known, but power cords and mains conditioners are not placed in a direct signal path, but rather subjects to the following equipments many ways of reducing noise. The effect of these devices are reduced by the same factor, in our example 76666 times.

Replacing a carpet, washing the ears or having a drink will probably make a much bigger difference.[/quote]

Thank you, thank you, thank you - finally somebody who is prepared to come up with a counter argument based on science rather than "it just doesn't, ok?".

Now, if anybody wants to test this theory to prove it..................
 
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Anonymous

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JD. Thank you for the thank you. It makes a change to be able to post a point of view without receiving numerous acrimonious responses.

I'm not sure where this leaves us though. For people like me with a scientific "trait" such evidence is sufficient proof that any difference a mains cable might make to how a system "sounds" is so small as to be undectable by the human ear. However, there is of course a great deal of anecdotal evidence to suggest otherwise. Many people are convinced that mains cables DO make a difference and argue that science cannot explain everything. Unfortunatley, to the scientists, this means accepting a counter argument along the lines of "it just does, ok". As there is no scientific no data to support the theory that mains cables can make an audible difference, then the scientist can only conclude that the reason why some people think they can hear a difference must be psychological rather than technical.
 

John Duncan

Well-known member
Jan 8, 2008
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[quote user="doc42"]I'm not sure where this leaves us though. For people like me with a scientific
"trait" such evidence is sufficient proof that any difference a mains cable
might make to how a system "sounds" is so small as to be undectable by the
human ear. However, there is of course a great deal of anecdotal evidence to
suggest otherwise. Many people are convinced that mains cables DO make a
difference and argue that science cannot explain everything. Unfortunatley, to
the scientists, this means accepting a counter argument along the lines of
"it just does, ok". As there is no scientific no data to support the theory
that mains cables can make an audible difference, then the scientist can only
conclude that the reason why some people think they can hear a difference must
be psychological rather than technical.[/quote]

Ah but this is where we differ - the way I read it, this is merely a hypothesis from which the author has drawn a conclusion, unsupported by empirical evidence. This hypothesis is countered by evidence from controlled experimentation I posted elsewhere (I'll have a dig and repost the link) which suggests a 1.5db decrease in low-level noise (that's about 25% quieter, albeit at low levels) - if the author would *test* his hypothesis and could provide evidence that matches his theory, then we'd be getting somewhere!
 

Anton90125

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[quote user="JohnDuncan"]if the author would *test* his hypothesis and could provide evidence that matches his theory, then we'd be getting somewhere![/quote]

At last some scientific methodology.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
[quote user="Anton90125"][quote user="JohnDuncan"]if the author would *test* his hypothesis and could provide evidence that matches his theory, then we'd be getting somewhere![/quote]

At last some scientific methodology.

[/quote]

Where?
 

timwileman

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[quote user="Eddy Current"]
[quote user="Anton90125"][quote user="JohnDuncan"]if the author would *test* his hypothesis and could provide evidence that matches his theory, then we'd be getting somewhere![/quote]

At last some scientific methodology.

[/quote]

Where?

[/quote] i think he is refering to the idea of having a testable hypothesis, peforming repeatable/measureable tests which conclusions are basedupon that either agree, refute or are inconclusive wrt the original hypothesis............that kinda is the bones of all scientifc rigor, the only bit missing is peer review :) ..... did i leave anthing out?
 

timwileman

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[quote user="JohnDuncan"][quote user="timwileman"]did i leave anything out?[/quote]

Biscuits.[/quote]damm........i knew there was something, yes they are vital to all good science..........as all good scientists know :)
 

timwileman

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[quote user="JohnDuncan"]Manhattan Project? Bourbons.[/quote] yep, well the team that built fat man were on them, little boy team were on ryvitas :)
 
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Anonymous

Guest
[quote user="JohnDuncan"]if the author would *test* his hypothesis and could provide evidence that matches his theory, then we'd be getting somewhere![/quote]

Post your evidence that refutes the theory and then we can continue.
emotion-2.gif
 

Anton90125

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Sep 1, 2007
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[quote user="timwileman"][quote user="Eddy Current"]
[quote user="Anton90125"][quote user="JohnDuncan"]if the author would *test* his hypothesis and could provide evidence that matches his theory, then we'd be getting somewhere![/quote]

At last some scientific methodology.

[/quote]

Where?

[/quote] i think he is refering to the idea of having a testable hypothesis, peforming repeatable/measureable tests which conclusions are basedupon that either agree, refute or are inconclusive wrt the original hypothesis............that kinda is the bones of all scientifc rigor, the only bit missing is peer review :) ..... did i leave anthing out?[/quote]

This is absolutely correct.

I am surprised that Mr Current failed to understand/observe the scientific methodology at the basis Mr Duncans comments, given that Mr Current electronic background.

Just to make it absolutely crystal clear I thought a quote by one of the greatest scientist (I have used this before): Stephen Hawkings would be appropriate:

"Any physical theory is always provisional, in the sense that it is only a hypothesis: you can never prove it. No matter how many times the results of experiments agree with some theory, you can never be sure that the next time the result will not contradict the theory. On the other hand, you can disprove a theory by finding even a single observation that disagrees with the predictions of the theory... Each time new experiments are observed to agree with the predictions the theory survives, and our confidence in it is increased; but if ever a new observation is found to disagree, we have to abandon or modify the theory."

The day when we pick and choose which theories can/should be tested and those that are above testing (In this case by blind testing) is the day we cease to be scientific.Any claims that are based on science and yet ignore this fact are merely dogma.
 

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