cables & blocks confusion

[professorhat]

[quote user="Eddy Current"]
[quote user="professorhat"]You seem to forget that manufacturing is probably not the biggest cost for these companies. More likely for this type of industry, the initial R&D of a new product is the most significant cost and has to be accounted for in the sale price. Plus all the other stages incurred pre mass manufacturing as well as all the other departments within the company which go into making a successful company work. These all to have be paid for before a profit can be made.[/quote]

What point are you trying to make?

[/quote]

I'm refuting the insinuation you made here:

[quote user="Eddy Current"]You seem to forget that all of these cables, even those with silly prices can be manufactured at a tiny fraction of their selling price if made somewhere like China[/quote]

i.e. just because the cost of manufacturing the cable is cheap, the company is therefore making vast amounts of profit by selling them for an expensive price. Or that manufacturers could just simply make these cables for pence and include them with their product. They would first have to spend many millions developing the cable (or pay another company to do this) which would then have to be added on to the price of the device to make this money back.

I agree with you in one respect. Manufacturers include good quality mains cables which are adequate to their task. What I'm disagreeing with you on is the fact that if you upgrade said mains cable and hear an improvement, it's impossible this is due to a cleaner power supply / less interference, it must be a placebo effect.

 

[a91gti]

Three cheers!
The weedy figure eight supplied with my cdp being replaced with a hefty, captive, shielded job contributes nicely from where I sit.

 

[Anonymous]

A placebo effect can be very persuasive and I'm very glad you like yours.

Regards Ed

 

[professorhat]

Ah, I see you've decided to ignore our little debate and have just gone back to your unsubstantiated "placebo effect" claims.

Fair enough.

 

[a91gti]

I have a friend of many years who much like EC has issues with my tweaking and the theories behind it. He assembles and repairs laboratory test equipment and is qualified up the wazzoo to talk about electronics and even he admits that I have thru my tweaks achieved great improvements that may not add up on paper.

 

[a91gti]

That said, if it sounds right to the owner thats the main thing. The thought just hit me that if you spend a fortune(or not in my case) on your black boxes why not have attractive cables?

 

[Gerrardasnails]

[quote user="taxiboy"]I have a friend of many years who much like EC has issues with my tweaking and the theories behind it. He assembles and repairs laboratory test equipment and is qualified up the wazzoo to talk about electronics and even he admits that I have thru my tweaks achieved great improvements that may not add up on paper.[/quote] Taxiboy - top bombing. Science is not always fact.

 

[Anonymous]

i'll probably regret involved in this. The placebo effect may explain some differences you hear but certainly NOT all differences. There is no evidence that i'm aware of that shows there is NO significant difference between any two sets of cbales. Cables do of course vary in composition and design and it follows that sonic properties would vary accordingly no matter how minute. Individual differences in hearing DO vary enormously among our population and is a HUGE confounding variable in these debates. What is clear is that you cannot dismiss experimental evidence from cable research. W ihether or not they are clearly audible as i said depends on how much difference there is and how good your hearing is in the first place. I do believe cables are an integral part of any hifi system and believe significant sonic gains can be had if correct choices are made. This 'may as well use a coathanger stuff' is really childish and ignorant. If thats what you believe then i suggest you do it..

hehe that felt GOOD (ps im a really non confrontational guy and if i offended anyone i,m probably sorry !

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="professorhat"]

Ah, I see you've decided to ignore our little debate and have just gone back to your unsubstantiated "placebo effect" claims.

Fair enough.

[/quote]

As there is a complete absence of any evidence that would validate the notion that mains leads can affect the equipment they are connected to, the very well known explanation of the placebo effect seems to me to be the most likely. If you have a reasoned explanation of how any piece of wire can make such a difference I would be enthralled and delighted to hear it as it would be in stark contrast to the "well it does make a difference so there" which seems to be the main thrust of the argument of the cable believers so far.

Regards Ed

 

[John Duncan]

How about I repeat my "snare drum at the beginning of What's The Matter Here?" test, with different mains cables?

 

[Big Chris]

But is it not a known fact that woven cables repel interference? Why is CAT5 cable woven if not? I'm an Openreach engineer and have been for 11 years (Well. Technically we were still BT up until 2 years ago, but you get my point.) For data networking we have to run CAT5 cabling. I could run regular 8 or 6 wire cabling, as it's still the same diameter copper conductors, but there have been reports that it doesn't work as well as CAT5, so we run CAT5. Is that the Placebo effect? Not flaming anyone here, just interested in this little discussion going on.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="JohnDuncan"]How about I repeat my "snare drum at the beginning of What's The Matter Here?" test, with different mains cables?

[/quote]

First i've heard of this test be sure to repeat it several times am, pm, evening
pre and post ear syringing, pre and post mint/ vicks inhaler and 30mins silence pre- listen.

ps are the spendors a no go then??? (compatibility thing)

 

[John Duncan]

[quote user="Eddy Current"]As there is a complete absence of any evidence that would validate the notion
that mains leads can affect the equipment they are connected to[/quote]

Apart from this, obviously.

 

[a91gti]

[quote user="JAXON5"]i' 'may as well use a coathanger stuff' is really childish and ignorant.[/quote]

can I use a copper coathanger?

 

[Anonymous]

oh all right. just make sure its not the silver plated stuff ;-)

 

[John Duncan]

[quote user="JAXON5"]ps are the spendors a no go then??? (compatibility thing)[/quote]

Oh I still plan to auditin them, certainly, but I have the small matter of a kaput car which needs to be replaced.........

 

[professorhat]

[quote user="Eddy Current"]As there is a complete absence of any evidence that would validate the notion that mains leads can affect the equipment they are connected to, the very well known explanation of the placebo effect seems to me to be the most likely.[/quote]

I find it interesting that I have to provide evidence other than the evidence of listening to something and saying "That sounds better", whilst you are clearly allowed to dismiss anyone who says this as having the "placebo effect" without any evidence at all (such as even being in their presence during this testing so you can listen for differences yourself).

Some what hypocritical...

To be honest, it doesn't even have to sound better - the fact that it sounds different is evidence enough that some property of the cable is having an effect on the sound. This is after all, what the argument is about!

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="JAXON5"]This 'may as well use a coathanger stuff' is really childish and ignorant. If thats what you believe then i suggest you do it..

hehe that felt GOOD (ps im a really non confrontational guy and if i offended anyone i,m probably sorry ![/quote]

It's hard to be offended when you have no idea what someone's on about.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="professorhat"]I find it interesting that I have to provide evidence other than the evidence of listening to something and saying "That sounds better", whilst you are clearly allowed to dismiss anyone who says this as having the "placebo effect" without any evidence at all[/quote]

I've given you a perfectly reasonable and valid explanation for why you think you hear what you hear and now I'm eagerly awaiting your explanation of how and why I am wrong. It's simple enough.

I would also like to point out that nobody in the world has ever been able to demonstrate an ability to distinguish the difference between mains leads just by listening to them.

John's test looks more than a little shaky too. Those differences are so small they would be inaudible and very likely attributable to errors in testing.

Regards Ed.

 

[Andrew Everard]

[quote user="Eddy Current"]
John's test looks more than a little shaky too. Those differences are so small they would be inaudible and very likely attributable to errors in testing.
[/quote]

If she sinks and drowns, she's innocent. If she floats she's a witch, and we burn her.

This thread really is going round in circles now, isn't it?

 

[timwileman]

the placebo effect is when your given a substance which is known to be inert but your told that it will have an effect.....so its kind of incorrect term to use as essentially for it to be a placebo effect you would have to be given a bog std cable, told it was expensive then hear a difference which is not there and can be proven not to be there...................any the probl;em with the whole placebo effect in its real use is that it is a real effect..........so placebo's can actually cure ailments........i mean really cure them.........so even if it was a real placebo effect (which its not as there is no placebo to measure against) then the result is still real..........i mean really real....

like the power of suggestion and belief ... it works (sometimes) .... there are cases of eg fatal cancers spontainiously going into full remission with no explanation via medical science .... is this not pretty darn real to them?

 

[John Duncan]

[quote user="Eddy Current"]I would also like to point out that nobody in the world has ever been able to
demonstrate an ability to distinguish the difference between mains leads just by
listening to them. [/quote]

So any test declaring such in WHF is.......what?

[quote user="Eddy Current"]John's test looks more than a little shaky too. Those differences are so small
they would be inaudible and very likely attributable to errors in testing. [/quote]

1.5db is not small - it's a logarithmic scale isnlt it, where 3db = twice as loud? Correct me if I'm wrong. My point was though that you cite an absolute absence of evidence, so was just pointing you at some.

 

[professorhat]

[quote user="Eddy Current"]I would also like to point out that nobody in the world has ever been able to demonstrate an ability to distinguish the difference between mains leads just by listening to them.[/quote]

Apart from the good people who have commented thus far on this forum, as well as the many reviewers in magazines who conduct blind ABX testing on such products. But, I forget, they are all in league with the cable manufacturers aren't they and are sitting on vast piles of money from backhanders.

In all seriousness though, your explanation for why other people on this forum are wrong is they all suffer from the "placebo effect", but this is not backed up by any evidence. The fact is, you can't back this up by evidence as you weren't even present when they carried out their own testing.

You're right, I'm not presenting any scientific evidence either, but then I'm not making any outrageous claims about other people who I haven't even met! So far, I've just countered statements made by yourself. Thus, I would say, the onus isn't really on me to present evidence.

Once again, it doesn't look like we're really going to get anywhere here in terms of resolving this argument once and for all, but it's been a slow day at work and I've enjoyed the discussion! I'd just ask you don't dismiss someone's comments completely out of hand, when you've absolutely no idea of the person or the conditions in which they tested.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="professorhat"]I'm not making any outrageous claims about other people who I haven't even met! So far, I've just countered statements made by yourself. Thus, I would say, the onus isn't really on me to present evidence.[/quote]

You misunderstand. I'm not making outrageous claims about or trying to insult anyone because I'm just as likely to be fooled by the placebo effect as anyone else. Drugs trials would be useless without it. It wasn't that long ago that i was taking homeopathic hay fever pills and I think they worked.

A claim has been made, the claim that mains leads can affect the sound of the equipment they are connected to and with my electronics background I can't see how that can be possible.

No offence intended.

Regards Ed

 

[John Duncan]

[quote user="Eddy Current"]A claim has been made, the claim that mains leads can affect the sound of the
equipment they are connected to and with my electronics background I can't see
how that can be possible. [/quote]

Understood, and appreciated. So what does the scientific paper tell you, if anything?