Cable Directionality - do you want proof

[Covenanter]

I guess I could post something about why directionality is a meaningless concept in terms of cables but the fanatics wouldn't believe or understand it so it is a waste of time.

Chris

 

[MajorFubar]

The terms AC and DC really only apply to power supply systems not signals! Most power systems supply AC because it travels better over long-distance cables (I forget the physics). DC power systems have existed, the City of London used to be DC powered by WW1 U-boat generators. Everything is AC now.

Signals are nor really AC (alternating current) they are random not alternating.

Chris

Fair point. Funny you should mention DC in London. Of course there was massive rivalry between AC (Tesla) and DC (Edison) in the War of the Currents (1880s), and Edison lost.

 

[MajorFubar]

Hello Thompson, surely you must know why the output from an amp cannot be DC, otherwise the speakers wouldn't produce any sound, right? With that as a given, I'm happy for someone to explain to me why the direction of a cable would affect the sound, because to me thats nonsense irrespective of what I may think I've heard. (I already know from proof that I cannot trust my ears/brain not to deceive). Think of the knock-on effect in other applications. Planes would fall from the sky because some turkey wired a cable the wrong way. What am I missing?

 

[steve_1979]

I am sorry but there is no need in my view for righteous comments like these. I have been guilty of a few in the past - but if it was between pals there would be you got that wrong maybe with some banter thrown in for good measure.

But comments like - "I am not going to waste my time" - as if that time is so precious he should bow down in thanks to you for responding to his comments and highlighting a potential mistake with such arrogance. Like you are the sound messiah who knows all becasue that is how the comments reads " I feel almost embarrased for you" your the one who should be emabarrased - speak to someone in real life like that and your likely to get sparked out

Sometimes people on this forum get way above their station if you ask me

Fair point. The tone of my post was unecessary and if it causes offence then I apologise for that.

However despite the bad tone I still stand by what I said. When someone has a complete lack of understanding of a subject but they still repeatedly post totally incorrect statements as being fact without actually bothering to research the subject first they're asking to be called out on it.

 

[steve_1979]

A wise man asks a good question but a fool gives a bad answer.

Wise words. I shall try and remember that for the future.

 

[ellisdj]

I am sorry but there is no need in my view for righteous comments like these. I have been guilty of a few in the past - but if it was between pals there would be you got that wrong maybe with some banter thrown in for good measure.

But comments like - "I am not going to waste my time"  - as if that time is so precious he should bow down in thanks to you for responding to his comments and highlighting a potential mistake with such arrogance.  Like you are the sound messiah who knows all becasue that is how the comments reads " I feel almost embarrased for you" your the one who should be emabarrased - speak to someone in real life like that and your likely to get sparked out

Sometimes people on this forum get way above their station if you ask me

Fair point. The tone of my post was unecessary and if it causes offence then I apologise for that.

However despite the bad tone I still stand by what I said. When someone has a complete lack of understanding of a subject but they still repeatedly post totally incorrect statements as being fact without actually bothering to research the subject first they're asking to be called out on it.

Fair play for the apology - sometimes people just need to take a step back and realise. I am just as guilty as the next person.

Major fubar no one said a cable doesn't work in the "wrong" direction so I have not built a bunker in case the planes suddenly start falling.

You are way off the point of this thread - even someone with views the same as you regarding these things has admitted to hearing a difference in the video of the directionality demo.

Heard a difference in sound not it did or didn't work

Have you watched the video ?
Did you hear the difference

Bearing in mind it's 3" of the earth conductor that is reversed

 

[andyjm]

Most power systems supply AC because it travels better over long-distance cables (I forget the physics). Everything is AC now.

To transmit power long distances, it has to be done at high voltage / low current to avoid resistive losses in the cables. Historically*, the only way to do this was to use transformers to 'transform' the voltage up for transmission, then down again close to consumers for delivery. Transformers only work on AC - hence AC used in power systems. AC is also useful in induction motors, but otherwise is a pain. As pointed out, lots of devices use DC internally.

* These days, given the availability of 'DC to DC' converters - electronics that take DC, chop it up into AC put it through a transformer and then convert back to DC, some transmission lines are high voltage DC. This is done where the cable has capacitive loading - at least one of the undersea connectors to France is high voltage DC for this reason.

Signals are not really AC (alternating current) the are random not alternating.

AC signals do not have to be regular. Arguably, the definition of an AC signal is that it has no DC component.

 

[andyjm]

Having read the thread, I was going to dive in here with one or two scathing remarks about the state of technical education in the UK. However, given some of the comments it is clear that the level of technical understanding is genuinely quite low.

Just to be clear, of course conductors aren't directional. That isn't how electron flow in a conductor works. Cables may be constructed so that they have to be fitted the correct way around (having the shield connected at one end only for example), but that is nothing to do with conductor itself being directional.

As for 'proof', I would suggest that anyone interested googles the 'scientific method' to get an idea of how to approach the proof of a technical proposition. If all it took was some guy on Youtube to wave his arms around to 'prove' something, then we would all have free power, my neighbour would be an alien, and I would be wearing a tin foil hat.

Hifi is engineering, and engineering is technical. You can have whatever opinions you like about technical subjects, but don't mistake opinions for facts, or Youtube as proof.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Good morning all. Replacing 3" of wire reminds me of genuine tests (rather than a closed demo) where a cable is replaced in part by bell wire, a coathanger and twisted or soldered joints. (I don't have the links). No audible difference detected. I am therefore, always sceptical when I see these kinds of shows. I am sceptical about buying anything on the basis of marketing. I do believe that science is capable of measuring anything which is detectable by the human senses (whilst also understanding that the human brain has the power to interpret those senses in amazing ways).

 

[ellisdj]

When I first read the posts above - the first thing that sprang to my mind was the phrase "wind your neck in" in terms of the delivery of the message

But then re reading I realise you have shown extreme restraint in insulting the intelligence of the mere mortals posting in the thread.

Technical explanations or not - its a video'd demo - where you can or maybe cant hear a difference when the demonstratator swaps a cable round in terms of direction.

As has been said a few times but overlooked when all the technicians jump in - the venue for that demo is the pinnacle of the Industry, hosted by a main manufacturer in front of top industy people by the sounds of it.

Why would they do it - when there is much more to lose than gain?

How comes to some of the people there it appears to make a clear difference - judging by the reaction.

Even on the you tube video its difficult but maybe possible to make out a change in sound - felt by a few.

This is not about giving 100% quadruple blind tested proof in a 10 year study, that is clear if you read my opening post - its just about demoing something that a lot of people believe makes a difference to Sound Reproduction. The fact its demo'd and recorded and you can watch it - makes all the difference to this type of thread where its normally someone saying they experinced something like this make a difference to their systems sound and 10+ people instantly being sarcastic and obnoxious and damning of them

There has been no uneccessary sarcasm but obnoxious - only a few posts - progress maybe.

Very little commenting on the topics of the video of which there are quite a few - noone has talked about the earth suggestion thats is no good for grounding high frequency noise rejection in power supplies etc

Or the capacitor that is supercharged by a specific "Nasa" dielectic burn in process?

 

[ellisdj]

if you sat in that demo you would have 10 seconds to process the decision - did it make a difference or did it not - what was that difference - that is hard and I understand you take on it from not making a buying decision based on that - and agree.

Watching it back recorded while its worse you still can repeat the test so you have an advantage.

Its bloody difficult to tell anything obviously - but bear in mind that test was not directly selling anything - other than maybe trying to say - we maybe receive a lot of flac for saying our cables are directional - this is why we say it. To me thats the only reason he did it

The big demo for selling the niagra is the one at the end - thats the one I havent really listened to much

 

[andyjm]

Ellisdj,

I am semi retired, thats how I have time to post on this forum. 30+ years ago, I designed the sort of stuff we argue about for a living. I still follow the subject out of interest, and continue to take a number of technical and scientific journals.

Now it is always possible that the scientific and engineering community have missed a discovery that would question the whole basis of electrical conduction through metallic conductors, but as I haven't seen a single reference to directionality of conductors in any journal or publication, and a google search only brings up firms trying to sell me something or posts on hifi forums, my guess is that the work done by Ohm, Ampere and Volta is still safe.

In its own way, suggesting that metallic conductors are directional to the electrical engineering community is no different to suggesting the sun goes around the earth to astronomers. It would require a fundamental change in the underpinnings of the science. 100s of years of analysis and testing have indicated that the current models are correct. I am sure you understand my scepticism when some guy on Youtube suggests he has changed our fundamental understanding of conduction.

 

[ellisdj]

AndyJM certainly not doubting your credbility - far from it - your level of knowlegde was pretty clear I felt from the first post.

I have not said you are wrong at all - the message delivery was borderline but could have been a lot worse which, the restraint comments made me chuckle.

What makes me chuckle more is your a great example of the engineers in his story - that whats really clever about the story if its just a story for marketing

 

[chebby]

I just hope all the loudspeaker manufacturers are keeping up their end of the deal by using directional cable and ensuring it's the 'right' way around.

And the amplifier manufacturers - to a lesser degree - with the few inches of cable behind the output terminals that they are responsible for. (The video 'proves' how just a few inches of directional cable can make changes that are even audible on YouTube.)

 

[Norris Cole]

I've worked in the audio industry for 25 years, (both Pro and Consumer) and still do.

Cable directionality - it's only promoted by brands that have no respect for their customers. End of.

It's a constant source of pain for me that I work in an industry where this type of rubbish is still promoted as having any merit, scientific or otherwise. Shame really, as its such a great industry, with (mostly) great people, passionate customers and some beautifully engineered and designed products.

Those that perpetuate the myth of directionality and other such rubbish do us a great disservice.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

I think sceptics will look at the op and dispute the title "proof". Noone has answered my 'quality's question so I still question the validity of any YouTube audio. I also question the reliability of any marketing demo. The last few comments have shown a great deal more "proof" that the video/demo is complete nonsense. I believe this post to be about demos and YouTube rather than about the validity of directional cables etc., but I think science has triumphed again.

 

[radiorog]

(With no offence intended) I won't waste my time watching HiFi auditions with the intention of actually making some kind of judgement on YouTube. You could be watching the best band in the world playing live, but it is still compressed to whatever standard YouTube uses (I presume its less than 320 on most occasion s) and will therefore sound just like that, a compressed digital experience. Therefore trying to come to any judgements about the very subtle differences of cables, is surely impossible, ipand if you can hear anything, I would be very sceptical that the audio hasn't been tampered with. I am a firm believer that interconnects make a difference in real world, but I know there is no way I could here the differences on YouTube, its absurd!.... Isn't it?

Why comment?

Just have a listen it won't kill you.....honest.

I commented because I was following the thread, and because of my beliefs I hadn't listened to the video. You then asked who had seen the video, as only two people had said they had. I was thinking maybe you were thinking people weren't finding the topic interesting, so I replied as to why I hadn't seen the video.

However, out of curiosity and as you say there is an audible difference I will have a look at the vid. Cheers!

 

[ellisdj]

I've worked in the audio industry for 25 years, (both Pro and Consumer) and still do.

Cable directionality - it's only promoted by brands that have no respect for their customers. End of.

It's a constant source of pain for me that I work in an industry where this type of rubbish is still promoted as having any merit, scientific or otherwise. Shame really, as its such a great industry, with (mostly) great people, passionate customers and some beautifully engineered and designed products.

Those that perpetuate the myth of directionality and other such rubbish do us a great disservice.

I dont understand why you have this mentality towards such a simple thing - this is not selling or promotion of any kind - its just a client saying to a customer use a product a certain way that we feel will be best for you to get the best from it - this probably doesnt happen enough - instructions tell you what to do not what best to do

Why is it such a bad thing - its clearly not - most cables go in and stay in until they come out - then when they go back in again; to go back in facing the same way they came out everytime cant be a bad thing if nothing else

Again all the myths and pseudo science and flac flying around - Kudos to the man to stand up infront of it say this is why - listen for yourself and see what you think. I applaud that regardless

 

[ellisdj]

To RadioFrog

"because of my beliefs I hadn't listened to the video" - why would you not watch a video because of a preconception? Its a hifi video, its a video on your hobby

That a bit stubborn you must admit - but fair play for admitting it. Probably nothing Gained but certainly nothing lost

 

[ellisdj]

Major its at 40 and 41 minutes the swop demo - what did you hear ?

What about the other demos

- earth not grounding a radio

- Super Duper Dielectic Treatment on the Capacitor

- The Niagra Demo vs No mains product?

 

[MajorFubar]

I've watched the video. He's a good salesman, I'll give him that. The minute he starts talking about directionality in wires at about 37:00 his opening line is "it's a simple concept...". That's right out of the Book of Psychological Selling: stating opinion in such a way that it is presented as a given agreed fact that no fool will question. As andyjm said, Google 'cable directionality' and you'll find no reference to it at all outside of the HiFi community. Have all the world's scientists missed a trick?

It's this kind of lunacy which taints 'us' all with the same brush, and to a certain extent I begrudge it, with the result that commonly I don't ever tell anyone I'm a HiFi enthusiast. Straight away they think I'm some kind of moron who hangs paperclips from my curtains and places an odd number of paper strips under my CD player's feet.

 

[MajorFubar]

Hello Ellisdj I couldn't tell any difference with the cable swap nor the Dielectic Treatment. I'm not sure what he was trying to prove by attaching the mains plug to the antenna socket on the Marantz receiver. Maybe I'm too stupid and I'm missing what he was trying to prove because even when he grounds the wire the rest of it is still going to act as a radio antenna. Radio frequencies don't work like that. Which is why everything he talks about his half correct, half pseudo science cleverly presented in an approachable comfy way as indisputable fact. If I needed a salesman to sell sand to the arabs, I'd hire him.

 

[ellisdj]

I thought one of either or bboth of these surely the electricity in the ground cable test would follow path of least resistance i.e. to ground rather than to the reciever to play the radio - so plugging it in should ground the signal and reduce or stop it playing

And or I also assumed that the grounding test was to prove that ground wire in the building structure doesnt actually ground radio waves i.e. highish freq waves which arre the whole point of screening shielding power supply design etc and obviously the product they are Selling

If you dont know what I mean by the super duper capacitor thats had its dielectic properties improved by a treatment designed by nasa - big story - you have missed about 10 minutes of thewhole presentation. That demo is clear cut if you cant hear that - hifi is wasted on you (speaking pluraly not attacking you personally.

BTW Major can speak for himself doesnt need a second voice

 

[Covenanter]

I thought one of either or bboth of these surely the electricity in the ground cable test would follow path of least resistance i.e. to ground rather than to the reciever to play the radio - so plugging it in should ground the signal and reduce or stop it playing

And or I also assumed that the grounding test was to prove that ground wire in the building structure doesnt actually ground radio waves i.e. highish freq waves which arre the whole point of screening shielding power supply design etc and obviously the product they are Selling

If you dont know what I mean by the super duper capacitor thats had its dielectic properties improved by a treatment designed by nasa - big story - you have missed about 10 minutes of thewhole presentation. That demo is clear cut if you cant hear that - hifi is wasted on you (speaking pluraly not attacking you personally.

BTW Major can speak for himself doesnt need a second voice

I suggest that if you can hear a difference hifi is wasted on you!

Chris

PS I'm getting old now and have just wasted an hour of the precious years left to me watching a charlatan perform.

 

[ellisdj]

How can you say that - the differences in the capacitor test is especially clear and easy to hear - I think your being awkward there in that comment.

The cable direction swop test is difficult as I have said 10 times but several people have heard it same as me