ATC SCM11 - EB2 Head to Head. No clear answers...

[plastic penguin]

Craig M.:plastic penguin:So it looks like the ATCs are crossed off the list before having the chance to hear them in my own enviornment.

C'est la vie.

am i being thick here, you just said there is an atc dealer 10 mins from you.

You're not, I did and there is...

He/she works from home. That's fine, and I dealt with someone like that when I demo'd the Creek Evo 2. Chances are they do other work outside of hi-fi and you would probably have to wait for some time. These people don't usually hold stocks, and in addition, I just don't feel, for all their good intent, they have their finger on the pulse ( no reference to Leema ).

 

[chebby]

plastic penguin:He/she works from home. That's fine, and I dealt with someone like that when I demo'd the Creek Evo 2. Chances are they do other work outside of hi-fi and you would probably have to wait for some time. These people don't usually hold stocks, and in addition, I just don't feel, for all their good intent, they have their finger on the pulse

Not sure how you know any of that about a dealer you have yet to make an appointment with.

For the sake of a phone call and a 10 minute drive what have you got to lose?

 

[Craig M.]

exactly, chebby! who cares if they have their finger on the pulse, if he can let you take some on home dem?

 

[Frank Harvey]

plastic penguin:This is isn't just an ATC problem: Creek and Exposure (to mention just two) outlets are again few and far between.

The problem is that many retailers aren't in a financial position to be able to take on every manufacturer. I think we're quite lucky in that respect, but a retailer has to weigh up the pros and cons of taking on a manufacturer. Projected sales need to be weighed up against demo stock to be bought, back up stock to be bought, having room in the store, and one of the most important things is that there needs to be some sort of marketing campaign by the manufacturer, whether this be reviews, mag advertising etc. To give you an idea of the amount of things that can have an effect on the dealer's choices, we were looking at another manufacturer last week, but the only thing stopping that is an awkward rep.

 

[Andrew Everard]

plastic penguin:He/she works from home. That's fine, and I dealt with someone like that when I demo'd the Creek Evo 2. Chances are they do other work outside of hi-fi and you would probably have to wait for some time. These people don't usually hold stocks, and in addition, I just don't feel, for all their good intent, they have their finger on the pulse ( no reference to Leema ).

Staggering levels of assumption there, especially when - as already mentioned - it would only take a phone-call to find out...

 

[plastic penguin]

Andrew Everard:

plastic penguin:He/she works from home. That's fine, and I dealt with someone like that when I demo'd the Creek Evo 2. Chances are they do other work outside of hi-fi and you would probably have to wait for some time. These people don't usually hold stocks, and in addition, I just don't feel, for all their good intent, they have their finger on the pulse ( no reference to Leema ).

Staggering levels of assumption there, especially when - as already mentioned - it would only take a phone-call to find out...

Yourself, Chebby and Craig could be right and my assumption may come back and bite me on the backside. True, you can't tar everyone with the same brush. To be fair to me, I've always said from day one that I prefer to deal with "known" dealers, hence why I'm so reluctant to buy electronic components from auction sites. I'm sure that many home-based businesses are the real mccoy, but it's personal preference.

I'll still phone them and see what they have to say...

 

[Frank Harvey]

SteveR750:I have thought about this even to the point of setting up a Home Demo company. Maybe the answer is to charge a fee for the loan of the demo equipment which is refunded or offset against the purchase of a brand new unopened unit. Most manufacturers won't open up an account without a shopfront, so this would more thn likely be a non starter.

As for the emo kit, who cares what it looks like so long as it works, so the odd scratch and dent is not important - personally I'd write off home demo kit against the added sales loaning it out might generate.Emo kit?

That is one way of looking at it, but the other way of looking at it is that that product did cost something. If you have a 'loan' product, and it gets loaned out 20 times but no one actually buys one, writing it off will cost you. Even if you sell two or three, at best you'll be even. Unfortunately that doesn't make for a lasting business. Certain retailers who have disappeared over the past couple of years have proved that just selling stuff cheap doesn't mean your business will flourish and that you'll be trading within a year or two.

Again only a personal opinion, but retailer listening rooms are almost a total waste of time as a means to selection of anything other than the cheapest of kit.I disagree here. If you took 100 people who had bought a product blind, and 100 people who had auditioned products in a demo room and made their choice based on that, which ofthe two groups do you think will show the most returns?

 

[Richard Allen]

FrankHarveyHiFi:

SteveR750: Again only a personal opinion, but retailer listening rooms are almost a total waste of time as a means to selection of anything other than the cheapest of kit.I disagree here. If you took 100 people who had bought a product blind, and 100 people who had auditioned products in a demo room and made their choice based on that, which ofthe two groups do you think will show the most returns?

Interesting. Dependant on price, I think you'll find it's 50/50 with the more expensie kit going to the dealer and the cheaper going online.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I think price is irrelevant here. Someone is more likely to be unhappy with their product if they've bought it blind. I can't remember the last time someone brought back a product they weren't happy with after trying out in our demo rooms, which are far from perfect....

 

[Anonymous]

Am I missing something? Why does it matter if Guildford Audios premises are residential or an actual shop? They are an approved ATC dealer. Surely thats all that matters?

A nice comfy lounge would probably be preferable to some shop demo room aswell.

 

[plastic penguin]

bobbyg81:

Am I missing something? Why does it matter if Guildford Audios premises are residential or an actual shop? They are an approved ATC dealer. Surely thats all that matters?

A nice comfy lounge would probably be preferable to some shop demo room aswell.

Are they an approved ATC dealer? They don't mention it.

My local Mazda dealer sells the occasional Ford or Vauxhall car. Does that make them an approved Ford/Vauxhall dealer?

Nevertheless, I believe, from a very personal point of view, that the "known" retailers are within my own comfort zone. That doesn't mean that will last forever. When I phone this person...who knows!

The bottom line is regardless of whether I'm right or embarassingly wrong I shall report my findings. I've always prided myself on honesty regardless of the outcome, can't behave or react any other way. Maybe that's my major weakness....

 

[Anonymous]

I'm maybe mistaken but I just assumed they were approved as they are listed as a dealer on the official ATC site.Is that not necessarily the same thing? I'm not sure.

It'll be interesting to hear how you get on though. You seem keen to have a listen to the ATCs so I hope they turn out to be a good company.

Good luck!

 

[plastic penguin]

bobbyg81:

I'm maybe mistaken but I just assumed they were approved as they are listed as a dealer on the official ATC site.Is that not necessarily the same thing? I'm not sure.

It'll be interesting to hear how you get on though. You seem keen to have a listen to the ATCs so I hope they turn out to be a good company.

Good luck!

TBH I don't know for sure. Anyway, that's not important.

I'm very keen to hear the ATCs in my living room (heard them at'The Towers' last year, but that's fairly limited, and liked), because I love the PMC DB1s: hate to think once I've purchaed the PMCs that there is genuinely better monitors for my personal usage - and budget.

 

[SteveR750]

FrankHarveyHiFi:
SteveR750:I have thought about this even to the point of setting up a Home Demo company. Maybe the answer is to charge a fee for the loan of the demo equipment which is refunded or offset against the purchase of a brand new unopened unit. Most manufacturers won't open up an account without a shopfront, so this would more thn likely be a non starter.

As for the emo kit, who cares what it looks like so long as it works, so the odd scratch and dent is not important - personally I'd write off home demo kit against the added sales loaning it out might generate.Emo kit?

That is one way of looking at it, but the other way of looking at it is that that product did cost something. If you have a 'loan' product, and it gets loaned out 20 times but no one actually buys one, writing it off will cost you. Even if you sell two or three, at best you'll be even. Unfortunately that doesn't make for a lasting business. Certain retailers who have disappeared over the past couple of years have proved that just selling stuff cheap doesn't mean your business will flourish and that you'll be trading within a year or two.

Again only a personal opinion, but retailer listening rooms are almost a total waste of time as a means to selection of anything other than the cheapest of kit.I disagree here. If you took 100 people who had bought a product blind, and 100 people who had auditioned products in a demo room and made their choice based on that, which ofthe two groups do you think will show the most returns?

I'm sure with enough capital you can source equipment from a manufacturer without a shopfront, depends on what terms you want to trade I guess.

Of course the real test is whether it sells more units and at a greater profit. I have no idea whether it would work or not, but if I had £20k odd knocking around I'd try it. There is plenty of experience of shop based retailing, and on-line retailing, but little if any of "I-come-to-you" retailing, at least not i consumer electricals anyway. I know that if my dealer offered to spend an afternoon at my house with several different units then I'd happily pay for that service rather than have to drive into the centre of Cardiff, park up, spend an hour in a strange unfamiliar room which bears little resemblance to what it will sound like when I get home. It seems to me like a good opportunity to make more money, even if you don't make the sale, which is surely better than offering free demos only to then have the customer buy cheaper elsewhere.

 

[Anonymous]

i agree steve , anyone looking at spending north of a grand , and probably more , would surely part with £100 for a couple of hours of home demos of 2 or 3 different hifi components ? he/she would never get the same valuable info from shop demos , id certainly pay for it ...

 

[Frank Harvey]

maxflinn:i agree steve , anyone looking at spending north of a grand , and probably more , would surely part with £100 for a couple of hours of home demos of 2 or 3 different hifi components ?

Some would, but unless everyone would, it's not a viable option to make it standard practice.

 

[AlmaataKZ]

PP, why are you so pessimistic re auditioning?

Several months ago I decided to get some ATCs. But only with a proper demo. My initial finding was that it was improssible to get one. but I went on and eventually was able to find a dealer offering me both home demo and good price (and even more)!

Call ATC, ask their advice. I have not heard anybody who said ATC did not treat a customer with respect and can certainly confirm this for myself. Call all dealers you know of, tell them what you are looking for, get a feel of who they are. Most dealers gave me a rather cold reception and were only prepared to demo what they have and in their rooms only, push products etc. but I was surprised what some dealers could offer - after some so-so experiences I was very skeptical but eventually I was plesantly surprised. I think what helped me was a no-rush cold approach and persistence. I am sure you will get it. you have the money, they want them. look for a deal.

 

[plastic penguin]

AlmaataKZ:

PP, why are you so pessimistic re auditioning?

Several months ago I decided to get some ATCs. But only with a proper demo. My initial finding was that it was improssible to get one. but I went on and eventually was able to find a dealer offering me both home demo and good price (and even more)!

Call ATC, ask their advice. I have not heard anybody who said ATC did not treat a customer with respect and can certainly confirm this for myself. Call all dealers you know of, tell them what you are looking for, get a feel of who they are. Most dealers gave me a rather cold reception and were only prepared to demo what they have and in their rooms only, push products etc. but I was surprised what some dealers could offer - after some so-so experiences I was very skeptical but eventually I was plesantly surprised. I think what helped me was a no-rush cold approach and persistence. I am sure you will get it. you have the money, they want them. look for a deal.

I'm not pessimistic about auditioning. On the contrary, I've listened to more stuff over the years than you could shake a stick at. My main hesitation is the lack of "authorised" (whatever that means) ATC retail outlets in my region of the country.

I've made no secret of how impressed I was with PMCs DB1s. Indeed, that still stands, like I said yesterday, I don't want to spend a shed-load of money on a small standmounter if 2,3,4 or 5 months down the line I get bored with them. That's NEVER been my way...if I'm over pedantic about system - and speakers in particular - then I make no apologies. I'd rather get it right first time rather than chopping and changing because I'm not happy....

To me, that's false economy.

 

[chebby]

plastic penguin:My main hesitation is the lack of "authorised" (whatever that means) ATC retail outlets in my region of the country.

http://www.atcloudspeakers.co.uk/dealer_uk.php

Click the drop-down for 'hifi products' and click on Surrey and there is Guildford Audio. How much more 'authorised' can it be than being listed on the manufacturer's website?

 

[Andrew Everard]

This thread is really becoming rather surreal: you mean pp hadn't even checked the ATC website to find a local retailer?

 

[shooter]

Whats going on, whats happening!

Only a short while ago PP was set up on the Leema/PMC combo now he's talking about authorised ATC dealers?

I was waiting for the Leema/PMC review.....

 

[daveh75]

chebby:
plastic penguin:My main hesitation is the lack of "authorised" (whatever that means) ATC retail outlets in my region of the country.

http://www.atcloudspeakers.co.uk/dealer_uk.php

Click the drop-down for 'hifi products' and click on Surrey and there is Guildford Audio. How much more 'authorised' can it be than being listed on the manufacturer's website?Exactly...It's where i got the original link from.

 

[plastic penguin]

Andrew Everard:This thread is really becoming rather surreal: you mean pp hadn't even checked the ATC website to find a local retailer?

I've probably checked it about half a dozen times in the last 12 months.

 

[chebby]

Andrew Everard:This thread is really becoming rather surreal: you mean pp hadn't even checked the ATC website to find a local retailer?

I don't know.

PP has suspicions about a dealership that operates from what looks like a residential premises and might be outside of his comfort zone.

(Just wait until he finds out that ATC speakers are made on a farm!*)

*Okay, it looks like a farm and is surrounded by farms...

"So it came about that one fine day in April found me driving through the
Cotswolds between Cirencester and Minchinghampton until I located what
at first appeared to be a group of farm buildings down a country lane."

(From a Gramophone ATC speaker review)

Not much difference to a hifi dealer that looks like a house and is surrounded by houses.

 

[plastic penguin]

Mock ye not, peoples. perhaps, just perhaps if more folk adopted my attitude rather than buying on instinct/reviews, then there would be far less unhappy people.

It maybe tiresome for you...far more tiresome for me, but my past in hi-fi proves that I get it right for my ears.

A65+ = 5 years plus

MA RS6 = 3 years plus

Marantz tuner (still used on a daily basis) = 31 years

Arcam Alpha 7 = 8 years

Pioneer SA-706 = 17 years

Wharfedale E20 (still being used. Never been reconed) = 28 years.

Why should I change that trend?