Chebby,
So there are now 3 variations in price for the SCM 11's - perhaps WHF should stay with current prices as they reflect now?
Thank you for pointing this out. This makes the EB2's an even better proposition!
Ronald
So there are now 3 variations in price for the SCM 11's - perhaps WHF should stay with current prices as they reflect now?
Thank you for pointing this out. This makes the EB2's an even better proposition!
Ronald
chebby
Well-known member
Ronald Archiebald:So there are now 3 variations in price for the SCM 11's - perhaps WHF should stay with current prices as they reflect now?
Hardly fair to expect WHF to keep up with every current price for every product. It took me long enough the other day to check at least three 'official' ATC dealers, from different parts of the country, to make sure the £965 was consistent. (And they don't all mention prices which makes the process longer.)
Try doing that for every item of hifi and AV equipment, currently manufactured, that is on sale in the UK and has ever been featured in the magazine!
Hardly fair to expect WHF to keep up with every current price for every product. It took me long enough the other day to check at least three 'official' ATC dealers, from different parts of the country, to make sure the £965 was consistent. (And they don't all mention prices which makes the process longer.)
Try doing that for every item of hifi and AV equipment, currently manufactured, that is on sale in the UK and has ever been featured in the magazine!
Ronald Archiebald:
Plastic Penguin,
This 'test' wasn't exactly written in the usual way for comparative reviews with a definitive conclusion, and I didn't get it either initially!
Anyway reading it twice led me to this that in my opinion concludes that the EB Acoustics EB2 came out the winner (my interpretation, at least!)
ATC SCM11 (Cost of £935 on Page 50, £867 on Page 26 - Best Buys.) - another misprint?
EB Acoustics EB2 (Cost of £669)
''....vocals are given air and convey plenty of emotion thanks to superb insight - leaving us staggered when the EB2's bring yet more initimacy and scale - and there's no shortage of dynamics and excitement when required.
It's simply and almost solely the strengths of the EB2's that hurts the SCM11's; they take the strengths of the ATC's and raise the bar''.
These speakers are cheaper, look better and sound better! Great job, EB Acoustics!
Ronald
This thread was more an accessable subject rather than ATC being knocked off their perch.
Cheers, pp.
Plastic Penguin,
This 'test' wasn't exactly written in the usual way for comparative reviews with a definitive conclusion, and I didn't get it either initially!
Anyway reading it twice led me to this that in my opinion concludes that the EB Acoustics EB2 came out the winner (my interpretation, at least!)
ATC SCM11 (Cost of £935 on Page 50, £867 on Page 26 - Best Buys.) - another misprint?
EB Acoustics EB2 (Cost of £669)
''....vocals are given air and convey plenty of emotion thanks to superb insight - leaving us staggered when the EB2's bring yet more initimacy and scale - and there's no shortage of dynamics and excitement when required.
It's simply and almost solely the strengths of the EB2's that hurts the SCM11's; they take the strengths of the ATC's and raise the bar''.
These speakers are cheaper, look better and sound better! Great job, EB Acoustics!
Ronald
This thread was more an accessable subject rather than ATC being knocked off their perch.
Cheers, pp.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
FrankHarveyHiFi:
They're £956 for Cherrywood, and £1011 for Black Ash.
The price hike brings them in line with PMC DB1s, also?
They're £956 for Cherrywood, and £1011 for Black Ash.
The price hike brings them in line with PMC DB1s, also?
The SCM11s can be auditioned at Cornflake in London (0207 323 4554) by appointment. They're not far from Tottenham Court Road although Goodge Street is the nearest tube. I borrowed them for a week and I live near Oxford. Cracking little boxes and better than their big brothers the SCM19s in my system and listening room.
Hope this is of interest.
Hope this is of interest.
Cutlass:
The SCM11s can be auditioned at Cornflake in London (0207 323 4554) by appointment. They're not far from Tottenham Court Road although Goodge Street is the nearest tube. I borrowed them for a week and I live near Oxford. Cracking little boxes and better than their big brothers the SCM19s in my system and listening room.
Hope this is of interest.
Thanks for that - firstly, most outlets, even the big boys of hi-fi retail, you'd be very lucky to walk in unannounced and hear the kit you want to audition. And secondly, the centre of London, unless I'm seeing clients, I tend to avoid. Parking and travelling is a nightmare.
The SCM11s can be auditioned at Cornflake in London (0207 323 4554) by appointment. They're not far from Tottenham Court Road although Goodge Street is the nearest tube. I borrowed them for a week and I live near Oxford. Cracking little boxes and better than their big brothers the SCM19s in my system and listening room.
Hope this is of interest.
Thanks for that - firstly, most outlets, even the big boys of hi-fi retail, you'd be very lucky to walk in unannounced and hear the kit you want to audition. And secondly, the centre of London, unless I'm seeing clients, I tend to avoid. Parking and travelling is a nightmare.
Another option for auditioning/trial can be to agree with a dealer that they send you the speakers and you keep them if you like them but if you decide to return, you pay the shipping back. I think this is a fair deal as you save your time, you try in your own lilstening environment and with the rest of your kit and the dealer avoids risk of paying for the return shipping, thus more likely to offer you a discount. Worked for me well with the recent ATC purchase.
AlmaataKZ:Another option for auditioning/trial can be to agree with a dealer that they send you the speakers and you keep them if you like them but if you decide to return, you pay the shipping back. I think this is a fair deal as you save your time, you try in your own lilstening environment and with the rest of your kit and the dealer avoids risk of paying for the return shipping, thus more likely to offer you a discount. Worked for me well with the recent ATC purchase.
This what I asked a page or two ago. Still waiting for David to respond.
This what I asked a page or two ago. Still waiting for David to respond.
chebby
Well-known member
AlmaataKZ:Another option for auditioning/trial can be to agree with a dealer that they send you the speakers and you keep them if you like them but if you decide to return, you pay the shipping back. I think this is a fair deal as you save your time, you try in your own lilstening environment and with the rest of your kit and the dealer avoids risk of paying for the return shipping, thus more likely to offer you a discount. Worked for me well with the recent ATC purchase.
Except that I don't want to buy those speakers as 'brand new' after you* have trialled them. I want to see all manufacturer packaging and seals etc. intact and pristine if I am paying full price.
If I want ex-demo then that is different and negotiable with the dealer.
*Not you personally or in particular (obviously). I mean anyone. When I buy brand new, the only prior 'use' I am happy about is manufacturer testing prior to despatch.
Except that I don't want to buy those speakers as 'brand new' after you* have trialled them. I want to see all manufacturer packaging and seals etc. intact and pristine if I am paying full price.
If I want ex-demo then that is different and negotiable with the dealer.
*Not you personally or in particular (obviously). I mean anyone. When I buy brand new, the only prior 'use' I am happy about is manufacturer testing prior to despatch.
Gerrardasnails
Well-known member
plastic penguin:
AlmaataKZ:Another option for auditioning/trial can be to agree with a dealer that they send you the speakers and you keep them if you like them but if you decide to return, you pay the shipping back. I think this is a fair deal as you save your time, you try in your own lilstening environment and with the rest of your kit and the dealer avoids risk of paying for the return shipping, thus more likely to offer you a discount. Worked for me well with the recent ATC purchase.
This what I asked a page or two ago. Still waiting for David to respond.
I have to say PP, I listened to them during my day for the BQ and I wasn't that impressed. Are you going for bookshelf speakers now?
AlmaataKZ:Another option for auditioning/trial can be to agree with a dealer that they send you the speakers and you keep them if you like them but if you decide to return, you pay the shipping back. I think this is a fair deal as you save your time, you try in your own lilstening environment and with the rest of your kit and the dealer avoids risk of paying for the return shipping, thus more likely to offer you a discount. Worked for me well with the recent ATC purchase.
This what I asked a page or two ago. Still waiting for David to respond.
I have to say PP, I listened to them during my day for the BQ and I wasn't that impressed. Are you going for bookshelf speakers now?
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
plastic penguin: AlmaataKZ:Another option for auditioning/trial can be to agree with a dealer that they send you the speakers and you keep them if you like them but if you decide to return, you pay the shipping back. I think this is a fair deal as you save your time, you try in your own lilstening environment and with the rest of your kit and the dealer avoids risk of paying for the return shipping, thus more likely to offer you a discount. Worked for me well with the recent ATC purchase.
This what I asked a page or two ago. Still waiting for David to respond.
I'm sorry, I didn't know that was directed at me
I may have to answer that one tomorrow as we're just closing everything up....
This what I asked a page or two ago. Still waiting for David to respond.
I'm sorry, I didn't know that was directed at me
I may have to answer that one tomorrow as we're just closing everything up....
Gerrardasnails:plastic penguin:
AlmaataKZ:Another option for auditioning/trial can be to agree with a dealer that they send you the speakers and you keep them if you like them but if you decide to return, you pay the shipping back. I think this is a fair deal as you save your time, you try in your own lilstening environment and with the rest of your kit and the dealer avoids risk of paying for the return shipping, thus more likely to offer you a discount. Worked for me well with the recent ATC purchase.
This what I asked a page or two ago. Still waiting for David to respond.
I have to say PP, I listened to them during my day for the BQ and I wasn't that impressed. Are you going for bookshelf speakers now?
Yup, that was decided last summer, the same time I auditioned the PMCs (Sept. time). The OH, metaphorically speaking, put her foot down and laid down her terms and conditions for any future upgrades...
I've been on a hiding to nothing ever since.
AlmaataKZ:Another option for auditioning/trial can be to agree with a dealer that they send you the speakers and you keep them if you like them but if you decide to return, you pay the shipping back. I think this is a fair deal as you save your time, you try in your own lilstening environment and with the rest of your kit and the dealer avoids risk of paying for the return shipping, thus more likely to offer you a discount. Worked for me well with the recent ATC purchase.
This what I asked a page or two ago. Still waiting for David to respond.
I have to say PP, I listened to them during my day for the BQ and I wasn't that impressed. Are you going for bookshelf speakers now?
Yup, that was decided last summer, the same time I auditioned the PMCs (Sept. time). The OH, metaphorically speaking, put her foot down and laid down her terms and conditions for any future upgrades...
I've been on a hiding to nothing ever since.
great review and they look very smart on the video , but eb ricky , whats going on with the logo ? id be changing that personally ...
maxflinn:great review and they look very smart on the video , but eb ricky , whats going on with the logo ? id be changing that personally ...
The EB2s, give or take a couple of inches have dimensions to my old Wharfedale E20s I'm using at the mo.
The EB2s, give or take a couple of inches have dimensions to my old Wharfedale E20s I'm using at the mo.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
Sorry PP, I didn't see what been posted after my post, and thought you were referring to the post that you quoted. I did try replying on the train, but Safari didn't seem to like this site very much...
We don't do as many home loans as we used to. Part of the reason for this is that we were getting too many products back with marks on, usually in prominent places, and sometimes the 'borrower' denied all responsibility. We tend to stick to known or regular customers nowadays and we've had far less (almost non existent) issues. We like to keep our demo stock as new for when it is sold on, even though we usually turn stock around every 12 months.
With speakers, loaning out new ones is almost pointless (as is using the DSR's as a means to a 'home demo'). Many good quality speakers take 100-200 hours to run in properly, and could take weeks for this to happen. If we were to do this, we'd loan out the demo model (we would take full payment before loaning out a product to an unkown customer, ie, not purchased from us before), which means the customer gets to hear a fully run in pair and doesn't have to wait for them to run in before they can even begin to assess them. So we have no problems with sending out a demo pair via courier, at our expense for one to try in their own home. At the end of the audition period, it would be up to the borrower to send them back to us (or, I suppose a price could be agreed upon prior to the loan of equipment). If the product suits the system, we'd have no problem then sending out a new pair to complete the transaction.
Obviously we'd have to be careful about this, as what we wouldn't want is for people to loan these to try out at home and then go and buy from somewhere else. Without wanting to go in depth into the whole try it there but buy it somewhere else scenario that has been discussed many times on this forum (which usually ends in people using their common sense and being fair), it's ourselves who have taken the time (and our demo model) to arrange this, and for someone to just order them somewhere else because they'll do it £20 cheaper wouldn't really be the sporting thing to do - after all, it would be us who would end up paying two shipping charges. Also, if the loan period was say, a week, we would've been without our demo model for a week, possibly losing out on other sales in store, and it would also limit the number of possibilities for anyone visiting the store for a demo.
There's lots of little variables, which I've tried to cover some here (nothing's ever simple!). And I can't finish this post the way I'd like as it would contravene certain forum rules. Which obviously, I wouldn't want to do....
We don't do as many home loans as we used to. Part of the reason for this is that we were getting too many products back with marks on, usually in prominent places, and sometimes the 'borrower' denied all responsibility. We tend to stick to known or regular customers nowadays and we've had far less (almost non existent) issues. We like to keep our demo stock as new for when it is sold on, even though we usually turn stock around every 12 months.
With speakers, loaning out new ones is almost pointless (as is using the DSR's as a means to a 'home demo'). Many good quality speakers take 100-200 hours to run in properly, and could take weeks for this to happen. If we were to do this, we'd loan out the demo model (we would take full payment before loaning out a product to an unkown customer, ie, not purchased from us before), which means the customer gets to hear a fully run in pair and doesn't have to wait for them to run in before they can even begin to assess them. So we have no problems with sending out a demo pair via courier, at our expense for one to try in their own home. At the end of the audition period, it would be up to the borrower to send them back to us (or, I suppose a price could be agreed upon prior to the loan of equipment). If the product suits the system, we'd have no problem then sending out a new pair to complete the transaction.
Obviously we'd have to be careful about this, as what we wouldn't want is for people to loan these to try out at home and then go and buy from somewhere else. Without wanting to go in depth into the whole try it there but buy it somewhere else scenario that has been discussed many times on this forum (which usually ends in people using their common sense and being fair), it's ourselves who have taken the time (and our demo model) to arrange this, and for someone to just order them somewhere else because they'll do it £20 cheaper wouldn't really be the sporting thing to do - after all, it would be us who would end up paying two shipping charges. Also, if the loan period was say, a week, we would've been without our demo model for a week, possibly losing out on other sales in store, and it would also limit the number of possibilities for anyone visiting the store for a demo.
There's lots of little variables, which I've tried to cover some here (nothing's ever simple!). And I can't finish this post the way I'd like as it would contravene certain forum rules. Which obviously, I wouldn't want to do....
I fully understand your viewpoint, especially when you send something blind eg. no history with the prospect.
My concern is, and has always been, unless you have fairly normal lifestyle eg. one that allows you to travel where you want, if you choose to, then the praise the ATCs have received over the years doesn't mean a jot for plebes like me
The alternative to covering miles of tarmac is a residential dealer like the one mentioned earlier in this thread.
This is isn't just an ATC problem: Creek and Exposure (to mention just two) outlets are again few and far between. So it looks like the ATCs are crossed off the list before having the chance to hear them in my own enviornment.
C'est la vie.
My concern is, and has always been, unless you have fairly normal lifestyle eg. one that allows you to travel where you want, if you choose to, then the praise the ATCs have received over the years doesn't mean a jot for plebes like me
This is isn't just an ATC problem: Creek and Exposure (to mention just two) outlets are again few and far between. So it looks like the ATCs are crossed off the list before having the chance to hear them in my own enviornment.
C'est la vie.
FrankHarveyHiFi:
Obviously we'd have to be careful about this, as what we wouldn't want is for people to loan these to try out at home and then go and buy from somewhere else. Without wanting to go in depth into the whole try it there but buy it somewhere else scenario that has been discussed many times on this forum (which usually ends in people using their common sense and being fair), it's ourselves who have taken the time (and our demo model) to arrange this, and for someone to just order them somewhere else because they'll do it £20 cheaper wouldn't really be the sporting thing to do - after all, it would be us who would end up paying two shipping charges. Also, if the loan period was say, a week, we would've been without our demo model for a week, possibly losing out on other sales in store, and it would also limit the number of possibilities for anyone visiting the store for a demo.
Take note of this. This is a retailer being totally honest and upfront. I wish there were more like him!!
Obviously we'd have to be careful about this, as what we wouldn't want is for people to loan these to try out at home and then go and buy from somewhere else. Without wanting to go in depth into the whole try it there but buy it somewhere else scenario that has been discussed many times on this forum (which usually ends in people using their common sense and being fair), it's ourselves who have taken the time (and our demo model) to arrange this, and for someone to just order them somewhere else because they'll do it £20 cheaper wouldn't really be the sporting thing to do - after all, it would be us who would end up paying two shipping charges. Also, if the loan period was say, a week, we would've been without our demo model for a week, possibly losing out on other sales in store, and it would also limit the number of possibilities for anyone visiting the store for a demo.
Take note of this. This is a retailer being totally honest and upfront. I wish there were more like him!!
potboyslim:
The reality of the ATC speakers is that hardly anyone has ex demo of these as they are so good. If you could find a set then buy them.
Doesn't help with the auditioning debate, but deals can be found. I got mine new but at an ex-demonstration price. Secondhand can be found as well. From discussions with numerous people when looking to get mine, most acknowlewdged that they are a popular start to an upgrade chain moving on to SCM19s and SCM40s. So can be quickly traded in, but equally quickly snapped up by someone else.
The reality of the ATC speakers is that hardly anyone has ex demo of these as they are so good. If you could find a set then buy them.
Doesn't help with the auditioning debate, but deals can be found. I got mine new but at an ex-demonstration price. Secondhand can be found as well. From discussions with numerous people when looking to get mine, most acknowlewdged that they are a popular start to an upgrade chain moving on to SCM19s and SCM40s. So can be quickly traded in, but equally quickly snapped up by someone else.
EB Ricky:FrankHarveyHiFi:
Obviously we'd have to be careful about this, as what we wouldn't want is for people to loan these to try out at home and then go and buy from somewhere else. Without wanting to go in depth into the whole try it there but buy it somewhere else scenario that has been discussed many times on this forum (which usually ends in people using their common sense and being fair), it's ourselves who have taken the time (and our demo model) to arrange this, and for someone to just order them somewhere else because they'll do it £20 cheaper wouldn't really be the sporting thing to do - after all, it would be us who would end up paying two shipping charges. Also, if the loan period was say, a week, we would've been without our demo model for a week, possibly losing out on other sales in store, and it would also limit the number of possibilities for anyone visiting the store for a demo.
Take note of this. This is a retailer being totally honest and upfront. I wish there were more like him!!
Couldn't agree more - makes a refreshing change from the 'one upmanship' we all come across. Keep it goin' David
Obviously we'd have to be careful about this, as what we wouldn't want is for people to loan these to try out at home and then go and buy from somewhere else. Without wanting to go in depth into the whole try it there but buy it somewhere else scenario that has been discussed many times on this forum (which usually ends in people using their common sense and being fair), it's ourselves who have taken the time (and our demo model) to arrange this, and for someone to just order them somewhere else because they'll do it £20 cheaper wouldn't really be the sporting thing to do - after all, it would be us who would end up paying two shipping charges. Also, if the loan period was say, a week, we would've been without our demo model for a week, possibly losing out on other sales in store, and it would also limit the number of possibilities for anyone visiting the store for a demo.
Take note of this. This is a retailer being totally honest and upfront. I wish there were more like him!!
Couldn't agree more - makes a refreshing change from the 'one upmanship' we all come across. Keep it goin' David
And keep it going EBR (as you are now lovingly called by AE).
With only 3 threads going on this page you must feel like the world has forgotten you.
About time they gave you your own forum section ...
With only 3 threads going on this page you must feel like the world has forgotten you.
About time they gave you your own forum section ...
SteveR750
Well-known member
FrankHarveyHiFi:
Sorry PP, I didn't see what been posted after my post, and thought you were referring to the post that you quoted. I did try replying on the train, but Safari didn't seem to like this site very much...
We don't do as many home loans as we used to. Part of the reason for this is that we were getting too many products back with marks on, usually in prominent places, and sometimes the 'borrower' denied all responsibility. We tend to stick to known or regular customers nowadays and we've had far less (almost non existent) issues. We like to keep our demo stock as new for when it is sold on, even though we usually turn stock around every 12 months.
With speakers, loaning out new ones is almost pointless (as is using the DSR's as a means to a 'home demo'). Many good quality speakers take 100-200 hours to run in properly, and could take weeks for this to happen. If we were to do this, we'd loan out the demo model (we would take full payment before loaning out a product to an unkown customer, ie, not purchased from us before), which means the customer gets to hear a fully run in pair and doesn't have to wait for them to run in before they can even begin to assess them. So we have no problems with sending out a demo pair via courier, at our expense for one to try in their own home. At the end of the audition period, it would be up to the borrower to send them back to us (or, I suppose a price could be agreed upon prior to the loan of equipment). If the product suits the system, we'd have no problem then sending out a new pair to complete the transaction.
Obviously we'd have to be careful about this, as what we wouldn't want is for people to loan these to try out at home and then go and buy from somewhere else. Without wanting to go in depth into the whole try it there but buy it somewhere else scenario that has been discussed many times on this forum (which usually ends in people using their common sense and being fair), it's ourselves who have taken the time (and our demo model) to arrange this, and for someone to just order them somewhere else because they'll do it £20 cheaper wouldn't really be the sporting thing to do - after all, it would be us who would end up paying two shipping charges. Also, if the loan period was say, a week, we would've been without our demo model for a week, possibly losing out on other sales in store, and it would also limit the number of possibilities for anyone visiting the store for a demo.
There's lots of little variables, which I've tried to cover some here (nothing's ever simple!). And I can't finish this post the way I'd like as it would contravene certain forum rules. Which obviously, I wouldn't want to do....
I have thought about this even to the point of setting up a Home Demo company. Maybe the answer is to charge a fee for the loan of the demo equipment which is refunded or offset against the purchase of a brand new unopened unit. As for the emo kit, who cares what it looks like so long as it works, so the odd scratch and dent is not important - personally I'd write off home demo kit against the added sales loaning it out might generate. Again only a personal opinion, but retailer listening rooms are almost a total waste of time as a means to selection of anything other than the cheapest of kit.
Sorry PP, I didn't see what been posted after my post, and thought you were referring to the post that you quoted. I did try replying on the train, but Safari didn't seem to like this site very much...
We don't do as many home loans as we used to. Part of the reason for this is that we were getting too many products back with marks on, usually in prominent places, and sometimes the 'borrower' denied all responsibility. We tend to stick to known or regular customers nowadays and we've had far less (almost non existent) issues. We like to keep our demo stock as new for when it is sold on, even though we usually turn stock around every 12 months.
With speakers, loaning out new ones is almost pointless (as is using the DSR's as a means to a 'home demo'). Many good quality speakers take 100-200 hours to run in properly, and could take weeks for this to happen. If we were to do this, we'd loan out the demo model (we would take full payment before loaning out a product to an unkown customer, ie, not purchased from us before), which means the customer gets to hear a fully run in pair and doesn't have to wait for them to run in before they can even begin to assess them. So we have no problems with sending out a demo pair via courier, at our expense for one to try in their own home. At the end of the audition period, it would be up to the borrower to send them back to us (or, I suppose a price could be agreed upon prior to the loan of equipment). If the product suits the system, we'd have no problem then sending out a new pair to complete the transaction.
Obviously we'd have to be careful about this, as what we wouldn't want is for people to loan these to try out at home and then go and buy from somewhere else. Without wanting to go in depth into the whole try it there but buy it somewhere else scenario that has been discussed many times on this forum (which usually ends in people using their common sense and being fair), it's ourselves who have taken the time (and our demo model) to arrange this, and for someone to just order them somewhere else because they'll do it £20 cheaper wouldn't really be the sporting thing to do - after all, it would be us who would end up paying two shipping charges. Also, if the loan period was say, a week, we would've been without our demo model for a week, possibly losing out on other sales in store, and it would also limit the number of possibilities for anyone visiting the store for a demo.
There's lots of little variables, which I've tried to cover some here (nothing's ever simple!). And I can't finish this post the way I'd like as it would contravene certain forum rules. Which obviously, I wouldn't want to do....
I have thought about this even to the point of setting up a Home Demo company. Maybe the answer is to charge a fee for the loan of the demo equipment which is refunded or offset against the purchase of a brand new unopened unit. As for the emo kit, who cares what it looks like so long as it works, so the odd scratch and dent is not important - personally I'd write off home demo kit against the added sales loaning it out might generate. Again only a personal opinion, but retailer listening rooms are almost a total waste of time as a means to selection of anything other than the cheapest of kit.
plastic penguin:So it looks like the ATCs are crossed off the list before having the chance to hear them in my own enviornment.
C'est la vie.
am i being thick here, you just said there is an atc dealer 10 mins from you.
C'est la vie.
am i being thick here, you just said there is an atc dealer 10 mins from you.
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