Why are blind equipment tests bad?

Page 4 - Seeking answers? Join the What HiFi community: the world's leading independent guide to buying and owning hi-fi and home entertainment products.
A

Anonymous

Guest
"On a more general level, what a strange, twisted view of the world you have..."

My world view.

Magazines are in effect an extention of manufactures marketing departments. The fact that the major advertiser stated the reason why they were withdrawing their advertising, not liking your reviews, shows they expected to be buying influence. The fact they withdraw their advertising from the entire group rather than the single publication shows that they thought their influence was being undervalued. No good carrying a big stick if no one thinks you will use it, their action may not have any effect on how you review products but your compeditors may be more wary of what they print. The fact that many of your advertisers use what hifi star rattings and quotes as a means of promoting the products they sell shows they view your magazine as a marketing tool.

Even if you take out advertising I view the magazines as like political correspondents on TV stations. Who are more like members of a political fan club than critical questioners in search of truth. They depend on access to the politicians, if they will not answer calls or questions the correspondents job is alot harder. I found the Sky News advert where the politician asks Sky News for their question before the BBC correspondent, funny because Sky News imply it is because they are better and more influential, when in fact it is probably because they expect an easier question that will show the politician in a more favourable light. It is also telling that the news channels live reports cut short before the politician has to answer more difficult questions form those they pick last, like a team leader picking a football team at school they pick the players that will help them win first. Question time is funny if you have ever seen the show being setup on satellite news feeds, as they present the show as if the questions are unknown to the politicians in advance and are being spontaneously asked by random audience members, in reality the questions are handed out to audience members who are asked to try and look like they are not reading them. Getting back to my view on magazines, they are dependent on the manufactures to provide them with products to review, I assume you do not go to the shops to buy them, and if you did every other magazine would have already reviewed them thanks to their more friendly relationship to the manufacture
 

Andrew Everard

New member
May 30, 2007
1,878
2
0
Visit site
knightout:Magazines are in effect an extention of manufactures marketing departments.

Any manufacturer foolish enough to think that way is really pretty poor at marketing. We in no way see ourselves thus.

knightout:The fact
that the major advertiser stated the reason why they were withdrawing
their advertising, not liking your reviews, shows they expected to be
buying influence.

We really can't be held responsible for others' expectations. More fool them if they think that way.

knightout:The fact they withdraw their advertising from the
entire group rather than the single publication shows that they thought
their influence was being undervalued.

Whereas in fact it's non-existent.

knightout:No good carrying a big stick if
no one thinks you will use it, their action may not have any effect on
how you review products but your compeditors may be more wary of what
they print.

Again, we can't be held responsible for what our competitors may or may not think, or how they act on any information at their disposal.

knightout:The fact that many of your advertisers use what hifi star
rattings and quotes as a means of promoting the products they sell
shows they view your magazine as a marketing tool.

Nice bit of reverse logic there. No, they use favourable reviews as an endorsement of their products. Wouldn't you, in their shoes?

knightout:Even if you
take out advertising I view the magazines as like political
correspondents on TV stations.

This is going to be good...

knightout:I found the Sky News advert
where the politician asks Sky News for their question before the BBC
correspondent, funny because Sky News imply it is because they are
better and more influential, when in fact it is probably because they
expect an easier question that will show the politician in a more
favourable light.

Y'see, there's that 'probably' again - you believe it to be so, so it is so.

knightout:Question time is funny if you have ever seen the show being
setup on satellite news feeds, as they present the show as if the
questions are unknown to the politicians in advance and are being
spontaneously asked by random audience members, in reality the
questions are handed out to audience members who are asked to try and
look like they are not reading them.

That'll be the illuminati in action, that. I take back my 'This is going to be good' comment above.

knightout:Getting back to my view on
magazines

Phew - conspiracy mode disengaged?

knightout:Getting back to my view on
magazines, they are dependent on the manufactures to provide them with
products to review

Well, one largely accurate statement in an entire post isn't bad going, I guess...

knightout:I assume you do not go to the shops to buy them

In some cases, you assume incorrectly, as has been documented on these Forums in the past

knightout:thanks to their more friendly relationship to the manufacture

Not to mention the fact that the other magazines' vanishingly small circulations means that any review published in them will have hardly any effect, positive or negative, on sales of a product.

And those manufacturers who choose to market on the basis of good reviews, rather than actually doing any proper marketing, can run the review quotes and star ratings from those magazines read by one man and a dog just as large as they run those from a magazine with a worldwide readership well into seven figures.
 

Andrew Everard

New member
May 30, 2007
1,878
2
0
Visit site
JohnDuncan:Clare Newsome:I dare someone to say to Paxman or Humphries that they give politicians an easy ride....

I want to be a BBC News reader. They earn £92,000 a year.

But only if they have one of those odd names where both parts are actually first na - oh, hang on...
 

Andrew Everard

New member
May 30, 2007
1,878
2
0
Visit site
JohnDuncan:Interesting web page here. Click on "Leisure Interests: Hifi" in the top list box.

I know who I'd be friendly with if I was a manufacturer.

And then, holding those numbers in mind, go back a page and choose "Leisure Interests: Home Entertainment"
 

John Duncan

Well-known member
Andrew Everard:
JohnDuncan:Clare Newsome:I dare someone to say to Paxman or Humphries that they give politicians an easy ride....

I want to be a BBC News reader. They earn £92,000 a year.

But only if they have one of those odd names where both parts are actually first na - oh, hang on...

See, perfectly qualified.
 

Andrew Everard

New member
May 30, 2007
1,878
2
0
Visit site
JohnDuncan:See, perfectly qualified.

Well, in your case nothing that a blonde wig, a jacket with huge lapels and newsreader's superwetlookshiny lip-gloss wouldn't put right, Mr D...
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Andrew Everard:
JohnDuncan:Interesting web page here. Click on "Leisure Interests: Hifi" in the top list box.I know who I'd be friendly with if I was a manufacturer.

And then, holding those numbers in mind, go back a page and choose "Leisure Interests: Home Entertainment"

Try looking at Motoring: General. The BMW magazine is no 2 in the list, way above What Car. I presume it's compulsory if you ÿbuy a BMW?ÿ
 

John Duncan

Well-known member
Andrew Everard:
JohnDuncan:See, perfectly qualified.

Well, in your case nothing that a blonde wig, a jacket with huge lapels and newsreader's superwetlookshiny lip-gloss wouldn't put right, Mr D...

So at weekends, perfectly qualified.
 

Andrew Everard

New member
May 30, 2007
1,878
2
0
Visit site
Tarquinh:Try looking at Motoring: General. The BMW magazine is no 2 in the list, way above What Car. I presume it's compulsory if you buy a BMW?

Well, in that it's a Controlled Free Circulation title rather than one people actually buy, yes.
 

John Duncan

Well-known member
Tarquinh:Andrew Everard:
JohnDuncan:Interesting web page here. Click on "Leisure Interests: Hifi" in the top list box.I know who I'd be friendly with if I was a manufacturer.

And then, holding those numbers in mind, go back a page and choose "Leisure Interests: Home Entertainment"

Try looking at Motoring: General. The BMW magazine is no 2 in the list, way above What Car. I presume it's compulsory if you ÿbuy a BMW?ÿ

Not only compulsory, but free, and sent to you without you asking. It's quite nice and shiny though.
 

Andrew Everard

New member
May 30, 2007
1,878
2
0
Visit site
JohnDuncan:Not only compulsory, but free, and sent to you without you asking. It's quite nice and shiny though.

So in all respects like an office supplies sales rep's 3-Series, then...?
 

John Duncan

Well-known member
Andrew Everard:
JohnDuncan:Not only compulsory, but free, and sent to you without you asking. It's quite nice and shiny though.

So in all respects like an office supplies sales rep's 3-Series, then...?

Yeah. Though I was a Development Manager at the time, so I got it all wrong - should've had the A4....
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
So blind testing and for that matter taking measurements with test equipment does not work with hifi because these are designed to remove subjectivity and bias. The appreciation of music is subjective, and the reviewers are unbiased so these methods are not needed. When measurements or blind testing disagrees with reviewers it is due to the methods being flawed. When reviewers apear to be biased it is due to unfortunate but happy coincidence.

Claims made by the magazine are in no way an extention of advertising and are impartial opinion. If a reviewer says they can hear a clear difference between digital optical audio connectors, or see a clear difference between hdmi cables, that is completely different to manufactures claiming their products improve performance and rightly the Advertising Standards Authority is powerless to call for proof, even if manufactures then refer people to these impartial opinions.

Any requests for reviewers to validate their opinions with data or double blind testing, is a attack on their integrity, and will rightly cause self righteous indignation.

Well that has put my mind at rest, all is well in the world of hifi reviews. It was just silly me.

I believe cables could be easily double blind tested with a ABX Switcher or Comparator with AB and source direct. But this would obviously be a pointless and worthless exercise. So I understand why you dont bother.
 

Andrew Everard

New member
May 30, 2007
1,878
2
0
Visit site
knightout:Well that has put my mind at rest, all is well in the world of hifi reviews. It was just silly me.
I believe cables could be easily double blind tested with a ABX Switcher or Comparator with AB and source direct. But this would obviously be a pointless and worthless exercise. So I understand why you dont bother.

Well, that's all amicably sorted, then. Glad we were able to put your mind at rest.

Agreed, you were being a bit silly back there - but hey, that's life. huh...?

The reason we don't use switchers is much the same reason why any shop worth its salt doesn't use comparators these days: the switchers and comparators detract so much from the sound quality that differences between products are masked.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I've read this thread with interest and I have to say Knightout is the one talking the most sense in it.

If someone thinks Jeremy Paxman gives politicians a hard time then I suggest its they that have a very odd world view. Yes the BBC is a benign organisation that serves the people and cross questions crooked politicians for the normal folks back home. Do you live in a bubble? Have you no idea of the amount of criticism of the BBC? its bias towards US and Israel? Did you see Paxman interview George Galloway after he won his seat? You think that's impartial?

You really expect sentient human beings with critical faculties to see What Hi Fi fives stars plastered across equipment in hi fi shops and not expect them to question the complex relationship between you and manafacturers?

The only thing I would say is by the same logic I would ask knightout what he expected the What Hi FI staff to say? Of course they are going to protest their impatiality, this is not the place to have a discussion about this issue. Particularly when they seem unwilling to genuinely engage in a discussion of this issue.
 

Andrew Everard

New member
May 30, 2007
1,878
2
0
Visit site
FolsomBlues:You really expect sentient human beings with
critical faculties to see What Hi Fi fives stars plastered across
equipment in hi fi shops and not expect them to question the complex
relationship between you and manafacturers?

There's nothing the slightest bit complex about it. We review products, and if the manufacturer likes the verdict, it may or may not choose to put the star rating, and perhaps a quote from the review, on its promotional material. It's that simple.

FolsomBlues:The only thing I would say is by the same logic I would ask knightout what he expected the What Hi FI staff to say? Of course they are going to protest their impatiality, this is not the place to have a discussion about this issue. Particularly when they seem unwilling to genuinely engage in a discussion of this issue.

So you're saying that the fact we protest our impartiality is a sign that we are "unwilling to genuinely engage in a discussion of this issue", yes?

We're back into 'if she drowns, she's innocent; if she floats, she's a witch - and we burn her!' ducking-stool logic again.

We have answered every point put on this subject repeatedly, and at some length.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I don't think saying someone has a very warped world view for questioning something most people with any world sense would question is genuinely engaging with them.

I have no reason to suggest you are anything but impartial - I am sure you are. But there are questions like how much you are influenced by knowing the price range of equipment you are testing, influences that are hard to quantify and that everyone is subject to. The most basic forms of hypnosis testify to the powers of suggestion.

I wonder what lengths you go to to find the best way of conducting impartial tests and make these methods available to readers? Maybe you have and I haven't read it. All I am saying is there is more than one way to have bias in your reviews and it is not as obvious as you knowingly cheating your readers. I am not suggesting you are doing that.

I've also read this whole thread and I think its fair to say you've responded with a fair degree of sarcasm to knightout. Fair enough, its only hi fi after all, but no use playing the puritanical card.
 

Andrew Everard

New member
May 30, 2007
1,878
2
0
Visit site
FolsomBlues:
I've also read this whole thread and I think its fair to say you've responded with a fair degree of sarcasm to knightout.

Who, of course, would never stoop to sarcasm or unfounded and unsupported allegations...

FolsomBlues:Fair enough, its
only hi fi after all, but no use playing the puritanical card.

I'm not playing any card. Only responding honestly to the endless and very repetitive allegations, which no-one seems to be able to stand up with any evidence. How else would you have me respond?
 

TRENDING THREADS

Latest posts