Vinyl vs digital

[treesey]

The CD player I got hold of is a Meridian 508.20. Built like a tank, totally silent in operation and to my ears a beautifully warm, detailed yet punchy and fast presentation.
Russ "The Tech Guy" at Cambridge, will recap it and rebuild it with new lasers and full service for £550.

Rather than trying to grab everyone's quotes above, I just grabbed this one.

Find yourself a quality CD player; absolutely use it just as a transport if you wish. But there's much more to it than you think.

Lampizator has put in many many hours on the differences in CD players, which are/were 'the best', and how you can improve them. If you are interested...

CD_ALPHABETICAL

 

[JDL]

There's no question that vinyl and the technology that's gone into the manufacture of LPs (for want of a better term) is far more complex and amazing than many people realise. And there's no doubt that as a music reproduction technique it remains up there with the best that's available.
What puts me off is only the price that's being charged for records and the the thought of having. to find enough money to buy a turntable that would match my CD player, and having to search out all my favourite records that I used to have but are now all on CD. It's too expensive and mind bending a proposition for me, unless I end up with enough money somehow to do it 🫡

 

[matthewpianist]

My latest thoughts on this...

Vinyl can sound wonderful and it has huge nostalgia value. I grew up playing vinyl and then CD alongside once it became more affordable. I've never moved away from CD but vinyl has been in and out of my system several times over the years, though I've always kept my LPs, now numbering around 300. My CD collection is currently over 10x that. My turntables have ranged from entry-level Projects, Regas and my current Pioneer PL12D, all the way up to a Thorens TD150MkII in a new plinth, a Project Classic and a Michell Tecnodec.

I became interested in non-physical formats relatively early on, with an iPod and dock and then with a Squeezebox Touch plugged into my hi-fi. The latter was capable of good performance and I enjoyed it until Logitech ceased further support. It then took me some time to get back to using streaming and over the past few years I've tried Yamaha MusicCast, HEOS, Bluesound and now WiiM, and it has progressively become more important to my listening.

I'm fed up with the cost of LPs, both new and secondhand, and how space intensive it is, as well as having had numerous pressing issues (including warped records) with new vinyl. I'm also tired of having huge physical collections with a great deal sitting on the shelf untouched after early listening. There's a core of albums and recordings I regularly return to (mostly on CD), but the bulk of my listening is now through the WiiM Pro using Qobuz and Presto Music's superb classical and jazz service.

My current system sounds as good as any I have had, and that's saying something from a £150 streamer, £250 amplifier and £500 speakers (although they do seem to be more expensive at the moment), and bearing in mind some of the kit I've had. I'm planning to add the Cambridge AXC25 CD player when I can so that I can enjoy the CDs I keep, but I'm very close to leaving vinyl behind and thinning out my CD collection to a core 500. My CD buying has virtually come to a halt this year, and I'm buying only the new releases that I know I will listen to regularly. This year that has included the new Natalie Merchant and the two new albums The Coral released last Friday, one of which is only available on a limited run of vinyl and CD, and not on any streaming service. I'm avoiding the increasing number of 'extra-special' reissues now. I have many (including the big Caravan box-set, the BJH ones, Fleetwood Mac, CSN(Y), Neil Young etc. as well as various big classical sets), but it's the original album and recordings that get repeated listening rather than all the extras, and they're very expensive.

My Dad (who got me into all this when I was a kid)has come to a similar conclusion. His listening is more near field than me, so he has just bought the new Ruark R160. He is very pleased with it, and streaming has opened his listening up immeasurably.

Ultimately, the music itself is far more important than the kit or the format, and so is wider life - spending time with friends and family, and experiencing as much as possible.

 

[podknocker]

I wouldn't dare tell anyone they can't enjoy their vinyl, but when people say:

'I prefer vinyl as it's more musical', this is all a bit vague and grey.

What does this actually mean?

Also, if it does sound 'musical', there must be technical parameters producing the musicality and surely, they can be measured.

If they can be measured, would they achieve the heady heights of CD specifications?

Are people saying CD playback can't be musical?

I stream a chillout radio station and that sounds musical to me.

I sense vinyl lovers are painting themselves into a corner, with vague terms such as 'musical', but can't really provide a technical reason why vinyl sounds better.

Perhaps because it doesn't.

 

[Oxfordian]

I wouldn't dare tell anyone they can't enjoy their vinyl, but when people say:

'I prefer vinyl as it's more musical', this is all a bit vague and grey.

What does this actually mean?

Also, if it does sound 'musical', there must be technical parameters producing the musicality and surely, they can be measured.

If they can be measured, would they achieve the heady heights of CD specifications?

Are people saying CD playback can't be musical?

I stream a chillout radio station and that sounds musical to me.

I sense vinyl lovers are painting themselves into a corner, with vague terms such as 'musical', but can't really provide a technical reason why vinyl sounds better.

Perhaps because it doesn't.

I don't know what I would call it but I prefer the sound that I get from vinyl, I think that it may be a nostalgia thing rather than anything that I could measure or show someone.

For example; I have a few duplicates CD and Vinyl, not many as I try to avoid duplicating where possible, for reasons unknown to me where there is a duplicate version I will always choose vinyl over CD when I want to sit down and really listen to an album.

Why is this, I have no idea.

My little CD Transport is pretty damn good as far as I can tell, it certainly sounds good, I have no issues with it.

Is it a psychological thing, does my subconscious believe that because I spent more on the source to amp route for vinyl replay compared to CD the sound must be better? Or, is it simply that as I have had vinyl since the 1970's I have just grown to love the medium and can tune out what others consider its imperfections?

Either way I enjoy playing and listening to my vinyl, I have no plan to get rid of it as a source although I am going to be incredibly selective on what I want to add to the vinyl collection going forward, due to the cost of picking up new and secondhand LP's.

I am not anti CD or anti streaming and could well look again at these in the future, maybe a good CD/Network player if such a thing exists, but for now I am more than happy listening to that antiquated vinyl format when I want to relax, unwind and listen to my favourite tunes with a glass of vino in my hand (*).

(*) NOTE:- Other formats and types of liquid refreshments are available should the listener require something different.

 

[Deleted member 201267]

What's the most expensive CD player anybody has heard and what were your impressions ?

 

[twinkletoes]

I wouldn't dare tell anyone they can't enjoy their vinyl, but when people say:

'I prefer vinyl as it's more musical', this is all a bit vague and grey.

What does this actually mean?

Also, if it does sound 'musical', there must be technical parameters producing the musicality and surely, they can be measured.

If they can be measured, would they achieve the heady heights of CD specifications?

Are people saying CD playback can't be musical?

I stream a chillout radio station and that sounds musical to me.

I sense vinyl lovers are painting themselves into a corner, with vague terms such as 'musical', but can't really provide a technical reason why vinyl sounds better.

Perhaps because it doesn't.

My take it this, vinyl is a perfectly imperfect format and there is no getting around it, you have to take the good with the bad (sometimes)

ill take you back to your car anolgy, Cortina or Mustang, The latter are notoriously hard to handle in the wrong hands and have LOADs of power so much so it can lose control (CD) . The cortina is an altogether calmer proposition nowhere near as much power has a very narrow band of operation and the body shakes at 70mph The handling is fine for everybody but gets you there and can do the speed limit with no drama.

Most would prefer the cortina.

The simple fact is vinyl is more likely to receive the best master these days ( sad but true) because of the technical limitation of the format. I'd take a higher noise floor with a few crackles here and there of which i might add many of my records are dead quiet. But that's the exception not the norm.

I dont care what format is technically better ill listen to the one that "sounds better" with that given piece of music.

Streaming ill take or leave depending how flush I'm feeling and how much I'm listening to my system Ultimately you own nothing which never sits well with me but is what is.

Ultimately i dont think many could even tell the difference IF the pressing is well produced. but that is a pretty big IF.

But as I've said for it quirks and the current state of mastering ill take vinyl if asked to choose.

 

[podknocker]

What's the most expensive CD player anybody has heard and what were your impressions ?

I mentioned this earlier, my Denon DVD2900 'Universal Disc Player' before it stopped working.

I paid £500 in a Superfi closing down sale and within seconds, I could tell it was something special.

Never really heard anything more pricey than this.

I might have heard a Cyrus in a shop decades ago, but I don't remember being impressed by it.

 

[Deleted member 201267]

I mentioned this earlier, my Denon DVD2900 'Universal Disc Player' before it stopped working.

I paid £500 in a Superfi closing down sale and within seconds, I could tell it was something special.

Never really heard anything more pricey than this.

I might have heard a Cyrus in a shop decades ago, but I don't remember being impressed by it.

Has anybody heard one priced at £25k ?

 

[podknocker]

I would love to hear a £25k CD player, to see what all the fuss is about. I doubt it would sound like a new format, or anything so great I would want one.

I keep thinking about all the cheap, plastic components inside a CD player and I can't find anything really expensive you could use in a CD player.

Case, PSU, panel, remote control, transport, optics, servo, DAC, a few capacitors and resistors and there's the packaging, shipping and then some profit.

Why does a CD player cost anything more than a few hundred quid, unless your asking a million quid a week footballer to build them in his mansion?

'Well, he's on a million quid a week, so we have to pay him a fortune. That's why these CD players cost £25k'.

Nonsense.

It's 41 year old technology and there's nothing new in a CD player built today, that wasn't there years ago.
CD players arrived at a technological dead end decades ago and The Red Book standard has nothing more to give*

*but still sounds better than vinyl!

 

[plastic penguin]

Vinyl is flawed but fabulous format. Is it better than CD repro? Yes and no. CDs have certain qualities vinyl can't reach and vice versa. As far as I'm concerned they are both great but very different. Hence why I wouldn't dream about ditching either....

Dig the new breed.

 

[WayneKerr]

What's the most expensive CD player anybody has heard and what were your impressions ?

The one I currently own. Very different to the one it replaced, very analogue sounding, but hard to really quantify as I changed all the kit in one go so could be a combination of amp and CDP.

I think I've had this kit three years and I must say since owning the amp+CDP I can count on one hand the amount of times I've wanted to put an LP on, and that is something I used to enjoy.

 

[podknocker]

A poor recording will sound dreadful on CD and OK on vinyl.

A good recording will sound great on CD and OK on vinyl.

The potential headroom with CD is much greater than that of vinyl.

If record companies actually cared about the recording and mastering process, we'd have fantastic sounding CDs.

They assume the CD listening demographic wants rough, shouty albums and only vinyl lovers care about sound quality.

This need to change.

 

[Oxfordian]

A poor recording will sound dreadful on CD and OK on vinyl.

A good recording will sound great on CD and OK on vinyl.

The potential headroom with CD is much greater than that of vinyl.

If record companies actually cared about the recording and mastering process, we'd have fantastic sounding CDs.

They assume the CD listening demographic wants squashed, shouty albums and only vinyl lovers care about sound quality.

This need to change.

A poor recording is a poor recording irrespective of format.

Isn't it?

 

[podknocker]

Vinyl will flatter the recording and CD will highlight its shortcomings.

I'm old enough to remember CD jewel cases saying:

"Because of CDs high resolution it can reveal the limitations of the source tape".

Here's a great book explaining the technical aspects of digital formats.

Amazon.co.uk

 

[WayneKerr]

Vinyl will flatter the recording and CD will highlight its shortcomings.

I'm old enough to remember CD jewel cases saying:

"Because of CDs high resolution it can reveal the limitations of the source tape".

Here's a great book explaining the technical aspects of digital formats.

Amazon.co.uk

I like to be spoon fed any chance of a precis of that book

 

[Gray]

I like to be spoon fed any chance of a precis of that book

'This book is the BOMB!'
....according to Amazon reviewer Amber.
(Certainly costs a bomb at fifty quid).

 

[Symples]

A poor recording will sound dreadful on CD and OK on vinyl.

A good recording will sound great on CD and OK on vinyl.

I'll have to disagree there.

A good recording will sound good on vinyl...
At least it does on my system 😉

When comparing the digital files to the analogue versions. Both sounded great.

 

[Gray]

CD spins at approx 500, slowing to around 200 rpm by the end of play.
And an 80 minute CD has a 3.5 mile long data stream.
Beat that vinyl.

I can get up to 78 rpm with my direct drive, vari-speed rival to Technics.

 

[Friesiansam]

CD spins at approx 500, slowing to around 200 rpm by the end of play.
And an 80 minute CD has a 3.5 mile long data stream.
Beat that vinyl.

I can get up to 78 rpm with my direct drive, vari-speed rival to Technics.
View attachment 5220

The 12” LP is going to have to become the 36” LP…

 

[treesey]

I would love to hear a £25k CD player, to see what all the fuss is about. I doubt it would sound like a new format, or anything so great I would want one.

I keep thinking about all the cheap, plastic components inside a CD player and I can't find anything really expensive you could use in a CD player.

Case, PSU, panel, remote control, transport, optics, servo, DAC, a few capacitors and resistors and there's the packaging, shipping and then some profit.

Why does a CD player cost anything more than a few hundred quid....

You have not read anything on my link to the Lampizator....

Here are a few snippets about specifically the old Sony that I searched for.

This is the underside of the drop dead wonderful Sony KSS190A mechanism on Haal magnetic rails and everything is made of metal.
This is the bottom side of the beast. The red metal is not copper, it is copper-galvanized steel. Just like in Grundig 9009.
Just look at these caps - Elna Duorex a size of a decent amplifier power supply. This CD player has more of them than I can count, and what I never saw before - they used shottky diodes for the bridge !
On the PCB of the Sony CDP-555ESD every major cap has a regulator next to it. And every power consuming device has separate power regulation. What an overkill design !!!
DAC is hidden underneath a ceramic red plate. I dunno what for - vibration? Heat dissipation? Temp stabilization? All three?
Note the copper heatsinks from voltage regulators just near the dac - just like the doctor ordered.
The clock is 16 meg, and it has anti-vibration black sock on it. All caps are premium Duorex again.

 

[treesey]

....so if you buy a cheap CD player, or an expensive one dressed-up to look nice, it may have cheap plastic components inside - cheap electronics, and minimal electronics.
Sony, and other manufacturers of course, by the end of the 1980s, had worked out what was important to extract the best out of the format, and produced the expensive players that are significantly different inside.
I imagine that at the peak of the CD revolution this made sense, but then it transpired most people were happy with cheap players, and then SACD etc etc moves the goalposts, but the principle holds today...... especially in a digital format, you need high quality components; and the correct HQ components in the correct places................... just like the differences between cheap and expensive amplifiers.

 

[Friesiansam]

it is copper-galvanized steel.

No, that is just copper plated, galvanizing is specifically zinc plating. If Lampizator can't even get that right...

 

[treesey]

No, that is just copper plated, galvanizing is specifically zinc plating. If Lampizator can't even get that right...

Whatever the correct terminology for the process is, I think you need to cut him some slack in that he is Polish, and his english sometimes wanders.....

Here is his history, as an engineer....

ABOUT US

 

[nopiano]

What's the most expensive CD player anybody has heard and what were your impressions ?

The dCS Vivaldi stack, which is over £100k now, I believe. It was doubtless superb, but I was too busy enjoying the music demo to think ’what does that player sound like’!