Vinyl vs digital

[James105]

I think it is claimed that there are metals in the ink present on the CD label that causes this static "build up".

I have read that a good CD player will have a transport mechanism that will eliminate any wobble the CD may produce when spinning.

I believe the Esoteric VRDS transport does this by clamping the disk to a platter, but such engineering, costs serious money :-

VRDS ATLAS | ESOTERIC:Japan high-end audio manufacturer | エソテリック

An unprecedented transport mechanism that invites you to the furthest reaches of sound.

www.esoteric.jp

I always wanted a TEAC VRDS 7 but back in the day I couldn't afford one, I see them now on ebay but it'd be wasted as everything is ripped or streamed from Tidal. I'd still like one though.

 

[podknocker]

As I said above, having a playback medium which doesn't mess around with the master, along with a system which will do its best to give you a faithful reproduction of that recording, is what people should be after.

It should be as close as possible to the original recording, not 'rose tinted vinyl glasses', or a thick, warm, muddled sound, because people don't like those nasty high frequencies and details.

I would love a clean, lean, neutral sounding system, which gives me the recording, warts and all. I think vinyl and many pieces of HIFI mask these and act like a sort of 'make up', to hide the reality. I hate that.

 

[Gray]

If they’re preset I presume they have minimal impact

They certainly have minimal impact.
But they're not intended to be, or described as 'effects'.
I'm no expert, but here's what I've gathered:
A DAC needs a filter and the filter (necessarily) introduces compromises (phase shifts, pre or post ringing, visible to boffins, on the waveform).
Certain DAC chips offer a choice of filters....so it's not much trouble for a manufacturer to make them switchable.

Where there's a choice of filters, you can think of it as a choice of compromises.

Cyrus suggests 'Apodising' as the default choice for best balance of compromises.

Of course, as one reviewer suggested - why not just fix the choice - and avoid users having to choose 🤨

 

[Al ears]

They certainly have minimal impact.
But they're not intended to be, or described as 'effects'.
I'm no expert, but here's what I've gathered:
A DAC needs a filter and the filter (necessarily) introduces compromises (phase shifts, pre or post ringing, visible to boffins, on the waveform).
Certain DAC chips offer a choice of filters....so it's not much trouble for a manufacturer to make them switchable.

Where there's a choice of filters, you can think of it as a choice of compromises.

Cyrus suggests 'Apodising' as the default choice for best balance of compromises.

Of course, as one reviewer suggested - why not just fix the choice - and avoid users having to choose 🤨

Because that wiuld be like selling an amplifier without tone controls.... Oh! Hang on....

 

[Gray]

Because that wiuld be like selling an amplifier without tone controls.... Oh! Hang on....

The difference being that nobody (who's 'heard' them) says, "I must have a choice of DAC filters" on their new DAC 😉

 

[Gray]

I would love a clean, lean, neutral sounding system, which gives me the recording, warts and all. I think vinyl and many pieces of HIFI mask these and act like a sort of 'make up', to hide the reality. I hate that.

I've got that type of system and fortunately quite a bit of my music sounds good without make-up 👍

 

[JDL]

I think there is a best medium and it's CD. IF all the same effort was taken to transfer the remaster to CD, as it is with vinyl, then the CD would sound the same as that vinyl remaster, but then better, due to better S/N ratio and lower noise floor, CD having better dynamic range, perfect pitch stability and no surface noise, which vinyl lovers 'don't mind' apparently. Weird.

The vinyl version can sound better than the CD version, if the remaster to CD is ruined and compressed.
All things being equal, with regards to the remastering process, vinyl can't sound as good as CD, but CD can always sound the same as vinyl, good or bad. The resolution and all the other tech specs are better with CD.

The potential of CD is still wasted these days, with poor remasters and lack of thought as to how this will sound on a high resolution format, such as CD. A perfect remaster to CD, will sound better than one to vinyl. CD is regarded as inferior to vinyl by many audio engineers and they think only vinyl lovers will care about sound quality. A brand new, high res studio recording, carefully mastered and transferred to CD will sound amazing.

I agree wholeheartedly. Moreover if one researches the subject it does seem that CD, still has the potential to offer the best sound quality available to us enthusiastic music lovers.

 

[Al ears]

I agree wholeheartedly. Moreover if one researches the subject it does seem that CD, still has the potential to offer the best sound quality available to us enthusiastic music lovers.

i might agree but with a proviso that not when said CD is overly compressed and a product of the loudness war...

 

[Oxfordian]

CDs sound great, but they spin! Things that spin fail and I've had 20 disc players.

I've had 2 players in 35 years, seem pretty reliable to me.

 

[Oxfordian]

I would suggest -- unproven opinion -- you'd have to get closer to £1500 for a CDP to better my turntable/cartridge in terms of realism.

Any suggestions on what to buy to get great quality at that price, just transport or full blown CDP or CDP/Streamer/DAC?

 

[Pedro2]

Of passing interest, Linn stopped making CD players some years ago - I believe it was the CD12 - it received many glowing reviews. Linn developers, however, believed that ripped Flac files played through their new streamers sounded superior.
I’ve no idea whether they were right or wrong. For the last 6 months, however, I’ve used an Audiolab CD transport feeding a Linn Akurate streamer/dac/pre - it sounds excellent.
I love the sound of CDs, vinyl, digital streams …. especially when they’re well produced and well mastered … sometimes even when they’re not … I just love listening to music.

 

[WayneKerr]

Any suggestions on what to buy to get great quality at that price, just transport or full blown CDP or CDP/Streamer/DAC?

Personally I wouldn't limit myself with a transport. One of the newer CDPs or DAC transports as I think they are termed now would be on my shopping list.

 

[JDL]

i might agree but with a proviso that not when said CD is overly compressed and a product of the loudness war...

How can one tell when getting a CD if it is overly compressed and a product of the loudness war?

 

[Al ears]

How can one tell when getting a CD if it is overly compressed and a product of the loudness war?

You'll probably be able to hear it.

 

[Symples]

I find it quite interesting on how this discussion has mutated in to a Vinyl vs CD vs streaming/digital debate.

When I bought the LP (Streetlife) I just happened to see that a hi-res digital version was available and simply wondered how it compared to the vinyl. (They both sounded great)

Now the vast majority of my listening is from digital files. Whether it is from ripped CDs or an online service.

One day a week (usually Sundays) I will dig out an old LP and play it. This involves going in to my bedroom (where the LPs are located), searching through the LPs, then cleaning said LP. All before playing. Then of course 20 minutes later, having to turn the LP over.

It is much quicker and easier to locate the tune online (if it is available) and play it.

But you know what?
It is not half as enjoyable as searching for that LP, purchased 30-40 plus years ago and playing that.
Holding something in my hand and remembering where I was and what was happening when I bought it.
Tactile they call it.

I enjoy my music, but nothing matches playing an LP

 

[JDL]

You'll probably be able to hear it.

Funny, I haven't really noticed, but then I only listen to classical music. That all seem s very well recorded and transferred to CD unless it's so old that the sound quality just isn't there. And Gong from the seventies, that is the classic line up;
David Allen, Steve Hillage, Didier Malherbe, Mike Howlett, Pierre Moerlen and Gilli Smyth. No shouty compressed recording with them. Led Zeppelin, again not noticed any problems with their recordings either.

 

[JDL]

I find it quite interesting on how this discussion has mutated in to a Vinyl vs CD vs streaming/digital debate.

When I bought the LP (Streetlife) I just happened to see that a hi-res digital version was available and simply wondered how it compared to the vinyl. (They both sounded great)

Now the vast majority of my listening is from digital files. Whether it is from ripped CDs or an online service.

One day a week (usually Sundays) I will dig out an old LP and play it. This involves going in to my bedroom (where the LPs are located), searching through the LPs, then cleaning said LP. All before playing. Then of course 20 minutes later, having to turn the LP over.

It is much quicker and easier to locate the tune online (if it is available) and play it.

But you you what?
It is not half as enjoyable as searching for that LP, purchased 30-40 plus years ago and playing that.
Holding something in my hand and remembering where I was and what was happening when I bought it.
Tactile they call it.

I enjoy my music, but nothing matches playing an LP

Although everyone seems to be of the opinion that CDs have no tactility, I have to differ. I have a collection of physical objects, there on a shelf, I remove the CD case (you get the picture ha ha) take out the CD, look at it, very carefully insert into the CD player etc, etc, press play and hope that my 30 year old player still wants to keep working with no skipping. Then listen. Sometimes this ritual goes on for several hours a day. I think there is a tactile experience for me in the use of CDs.

 

[WayneKerr]

Funny, I haven't really noticed, but then I only listen to classical music. That all seem s very well recorded and transferred to CD unless it's so old that the sound quality just isn't there. And Gong from the seventies, that is the classic line up;
David Allen, Steve Hillage, Didier Malherbe, Mike Howlett, Pierre Moerlen and Gilli Smyth. No shouty compressed recording with them. Led Zeppelin, again not noticed any problems with their recordings either.

In your normal listening sessions what is the dB setting on your amp? This will give you a good indication of the loudness/compression of the recording. Think you're pretty safe with classical.

 

[JDL]

In your normal listening sessions what is the dB setting on your amp? This will give you a good indication of the loudness/compression of the recording. Think you're pretty safe with classical.

The numbers on classic on my amplifier usually set at -50 to -40.
When the 70s rock goes on then the volume gous up to -30 to -35. I've no idea what this means in term of decibel levels though🤔
I think the loudest for me, used to take the volume up to half on my older amplifier. The new one has no markings on the volume knob.

 

[WayneKerr]

The numbers on classic on my amplifier usually set at -50 to -40.
When the 70s rock goes on then the volume gous up to -30 to -35. I've no idea what this means in term of decibel levels though🤔
I think the loudest for me, used to take the volume up to half on my older amplifier. The new one has no markings on the volume knob.

Think your speakers are an easier load than mine so my figures wouldn't be of any use to you. But definitely looks like your Gong, etc. do not have the same dynamic range as your classical CDs, unless you like your rock louder than your classical

A good source of info here: DR database this link will take you straight to the Gong albums section.

My main CDs range from DR of 14 to DR of 5, the lower the number the worse it sounds to my ears and the less volume it needs. Remasters can be a mixed bag, I've generally found remastering just adds loudness/compression so tend to steer clear of them these days. Most new CDs around late 90's-10's are a result of the loudness wars and sound sh*te. Not sure if they're getting any better as I don't like many artists from the last 25 years.

 

[JDL]

In your normal listening sessions what is the dB setting on your amp? This will give you a good indication of the loudness/compression of the recording. Think you're pretty safe with classical.

What I don't understand and couldn't find an answer to on the internet is, if the decibel levels go up, but there numbers go down. What does this mean? When you get to no sound you go from 90 to 90.5 then the infinity symbol appears at 0 decibels. I've never taken it to full volume but what's the reference point as far as decibels and the numbers on the little window. It's all a mystery to me.

 

[podknocker]

I find it quite interesting on how this discussion has mutated in to a Vinyl vs CD vs streaming/digital debate.

When I bought the LP (Streetlife) I just happened to see that a hi-res digital version was available and simply wondered how it compared to the vinyl. (They both sounded great)

Now the vast majority of my listening is from digital files. Whether it is from ripped CDs or an online service.

One day a week (usually Sundays) I will dig out an old LP and play it. This involves going in to my bedroom (where the LPs are located), searching through the LPs, then cleaning said LP. All before playing. Then of course 20 minutes later, having to turn the LP over.

It is much quicker and easier to locate the tune online (if it is available) and play it.

But you you what?
It is not half as enjoyable as searching for that LP, purchased 30-40 plus years ago and playing that.
Holding something in my hand and remembering where I was and what was happening when I bought it.
Tactile they call it.

I enjoy my music, but nothing matches playing an LP

I understand all this, as I've said before. The 'ritual' of playing records and all the other stuff. The tactility, the sleeve notes and artwork, even the smell.

What annoys me is when people say they enjoy vinyl, because of the reasons I mention above, so this must relate to this format having better than CD quality.

These things are not related. Streaming a CD quality file, will sound fantastic, but there is no involvement with the artist at all. The 'experience' of vinyl doesn't equate to 'this format sounds better than CD'.

 

[WayneKerr]

What I don't understand and couldn't find an answer to on the internet is, if the decibel levels go up, but there numbers go down. What does this mean? When you get to no sound you go from 90 to 90.5 then the infinity symbol appears at 0 decibels. I've never taken it to full volume but what's the reference point as far as decibels and the numbers on the little window. It's all a mystery to me.

This has been answered before John but just look at 0dB as the maximum output of the amp. Don't try it though as I reckon you'll blow your speakers and eardrums Hope this helps, if not just come back and ask, it's what we're all here for

 

[plastic penguin]

Any suggestions on what to buy to get great quality at that price, just transport or full blown CDP or CDP/Streamer/DAC?

If I was to replace the Exposure, very unlikely, I would shortlist the Roksan Caspian M2 CDP.

If I was to use a Dac with a CDP as transport, again I would shortlist Leema Elements Dac. Not saying I would definitely purchase any of the above but they would be the first I gravitate to.

 

[Symples]

What I don't understand and couldn't find an answer to on the internet is, if the decibel levels go up, but there numbers go down. What does this mean? When you get to no sound you go from 90 to 90.5 then the infinity symbol appears at 0 decibels. I've never taken it to full volume but what's the reference point as far as decibels and the numbers on the little window. It's all a mystery to me.

What the dB refer to is the amount of attenuation being applied to the signal.
An attenuator is another name for a volume control (you probably already know this)

The levels go from infinity attenuation up to zero attenuation.