Source first still important, dumbed down hifi, or is there a problem with your system?

[Overdose]

The con ,was the cost of CDs. Far more expensive to buy than vinyl, but much cheaper to produce.

When CDs first came out, vinyl was around £6 or £7 and CDs around £9 or £10 for the same album.

And now it's the reverse - they got clever and charge you more than they ever did, be it CD or LP (> double the price of the silver). But my point to was to catch Fr0g out on the audio front >)

It's worse when you consider the value for money of a download.

 

[SiUK]

some mp3 album downloads are more expensive than the cost of cds with delivery.

 

[TrevC]

320 Kbps is indeed much lower res than a CD, or FLAC.

No kidding.

There is a lot of detail in a WAV file that is not necessary, and the best lossy compression simply chucks it.

So in effect you're saying retail CDs just occupy wasted plastic - so what vinyl lovers scorned as a con is actually a much bigger con?

Non sequitur.

Also anyone that claims vinyl is a better recording medium than CD is nuts. CD leaves it for dead, and it's as good as we need.

 

[fr0g]

There is a lot of detail in a WAV file that is not necessary, and the best lossy compression simply chucks it.

So in effect you're saying retail CDs just occupy wasted plastic - so what vinyl lovers scorned as a con is actually a much bigger con?

Er, Way to create a battleship sized strawman.

No, of course not. Think about the leap you just made and realize how silly your post is.

The problem with chucking money at "buying" lossy MP3 or AAC is when you want to transcode it. If for some reason, say Apple start using a different codec, and in time stop supporting AAC, then all the music bought in AAC will need to be converted. Except now you haven't got all the data. Different codecs work in different ways and any converted files will almost certainly lose quality.

I personally think MP3 and AAC and OGG are perfectly good for playback if they are high resolution first generation files, but I avoid buying them for the reason above.

I have never bought anything from iTunes and unless they start to offer lossless files, I won't.

 

[SiUK]

CD leaves it for dead, and it's as good as we need.

You mean, "...it's as good as I need", surely?

 

[TrevC]

CD leaves it for dead, and it's as good as we need.

You mean, "...it's as good as I need", surely?

It's as good as human ears need.

 

[BenLaw]

CD leaves it for dead, and it's as good as we need.

You mean, "...it's as good as I need", surely?

He really doesn't. Google is your friend.

 

[steve_1979]

This is exactly it. You hear the difference between 160 and 320. CD is 1411.

I can hear a difference between 160kbps and 320kbps.

But I cannot hear a difference between 320kbps and CD.

 

[SiUK]

It's as good as human ears need.

In your opinion. Not saying I disagree with you, but it's an opinion nonetheless.

 

[fr0g]

It's as good as human ears need.

In your opinion. Not saying I disagree with you, but it's an opinion nonetheless.

It's "opinion" in as much as it is "opinion" that the Sun is bigger than the Earth.

 

[SiUK]

I think you are confused, fr0g.

 

[pauln]

It's as good as human ears need.

In your opinion. Not saying I disagree with you, but it's an opinion nonetheless.

It's "opinion" in as much as it is "opinion" that the Sun is bigger than the Earth.

Once again we enter the realm of faith - no amount of science, logic or reasoned argument will convert a "believer."

 

[SiUK]

Hello pauln

Was your reply in support of fr0g's post or was it a pop at me? Just so I am clear so I know how to respond.

 

[TrevC]

This is exactly it. You hear the difference between 160 and 320. CD is 1411.

I can hear a difference between 160kbps and 320kbps.

But I cannot hear a difference between 320kbps and CD.

I suspect that nobody can.

 

[CnoEvil]

I think you are confused, fr0g.

Don't you know the facts yet about putting a system together - Get a very cheap digital source (as they all sound the same); then get a budget amp (as they sound very similar to expensive amps); put 80% of your budget into speakers (as this is all that matters); wire it with the cheapest copper you can find and feed it low bit rate (as all bit rates sound the same); avoid vinyl at all costs.

There is no need to audition, as this is too confusing....all you need is a spec sheet.

If the whole thing is too much effort, go Active. :twisted: :shifty:

 

[fr0g]

I think you are confused, fr0g.

Not in the slightest. I "know" that the Sun is bigger than the Earth. How?

Just like I "know" that CD quality playback is already maxing out what human beings can hear.

Both "opinions" are pretty much untestable by you or me, but the science backs it up.

 

[SiUK]

I think you are confused, fr0g.

Don't you know the facts yet about putting a system together - Get a very cheap digital source (as they all sound the same); then get a budget amp (as they sound very similar to expensive amps); put 80% of your budget into speakers (as this is all that matters); wire it with the cheapest copper you can find and feed it low bit rate (as all bit rates sound the same); avoid vinyl at all costs.

There is no need to audition, as this is too confusing....all you need is a spec sheet.

If the whole thing is too much effort, go Active. :twisted: :shifty:

Yeah, I know, silly me

 

[fr0g]

I think you are confused, fr0g.

Don't you know the facts yet about putting a system together - Get a very cheap digital source (as they all sound the same); then get a budget amp (as they sound very similar to expensive amps); put 80% of your budget into speakers (as this is all that matters); wire it with the cheapest copper you can find and feed it low bit rate (as all bit rates sound the same); avoid vinyl at all costs.

There is no need to audition, as this is too confusing....all you need is a spec sheet.

If the whole thing is too much effort, go Active. :twisted: :shifty:

You see, now you are generalising about things I haven't stated.

I don't believe all digital sources are the same, although most "competent" digital sources are extremely similar.

A budget amp will likely have a poor power supply, low power output and struggle to drive anything but cheap speakers. Amps vary quite a bit. Where I would suggest amp differences are minimal, is where the specs say they are.

Low bit rate is poor quality, although for most purposes anything above 192 VBR is pretty much transparent imo.

Vinyl can sound good, but a good £200 CD player feeding the same system will be better than any vinyl system, at least in fidelity terms. The vinyl may have some pleasing distortion but that's another discussion.

As for the spec sheet. If it's detailed enough and accurate enough...yes, that's all you need.

As for active. Well it makes sense to remove a source of distortion and make sure the drivers are sufficiently powered. Saving money in the process is a nice by product.

I may be buying new passives in the near future though, so I'm certainly not an active only guy.

But all this is irrelevant to the actual, single point that was on the table.

 

[pauln]

Hello pauln

Was your reply in support of fr0g's post or was it a pop at me? Just so I am clear so I know how to respond.

I'm supporting the objectivist viewpoint of fr0g and TrevC and therefore having a pop at you. There is no doubt whatsoever that vinyl is an inferior recording medium than CD just as there is no doubt that the earth revolves around the sun. What is clear is that some people prefer the sound of vinyl and that's fine, each to their own, just please don't confuse this subjective preference with real and proven physical properties.

Another reason many might prefer the sound of vinyl is perhaps because it is less likely to have dynamic range compression and/or other digital processing applied - the physical process of cutting the groove limits this "loudness" - however this is not the fault of the media itself but of the mastering. A recording of a vinyl record burnt onto a CD and played back would retain the "analogue warmth" (aka colouration/distortion) of the original.

 

[CnoEvil]

I think you are confused, fr0g.

Don't you know the facts yet about putting a system together - Get a very cheap digital source (as they all sound the same); then get a budget amp (as they sound very similar to expensive amps); put 80% of your budget into speakers (as this is all that matters); wire it with the cheapest copper you can find and feed it low bit rate (as all bit rates sound the same); avoid vinyl at all costs.

There is no need to audition, as this is too confusing....all you need is a spec sheet.

If the whole thing is too much effort, go Active. :twisted: :shifty:

You see, now you are generalising about things I haven't stated.

I don't believe all digital sources are the same, although most "competent" digital sources are extremely similar.

A budget amp will likely have a poor power supply, low power output and struggle to drive anything but cheap speakers. Amps vary quite a bit. Where I would suggest amp differences are minimal, is where the specs say they are.

Low bit rate is poor quality, although for most purposes anything above 192 VBR is pretty much transparent imo.

Vinyl can sound good, but a good £200 CD player feeding the same system will be better than any vinyl system, at least in fidelity terms. The vinyl may have some pleasing distortion but that's another discussion.

As for the spec sheet. If it's detailed enough and accurate enough...yes, that's all you need.

As for active. Well it makes sense to remove a source of distortion and make sure the drivers are sufficiently powered. Saving money in the process is a nice by product.

I may be buying new passives in the near future though, so I'm certainly not an active only guy.

But all this is irrelevant to the actual, single point that was on the table.

I think you missed the irony in my facetious post........I thought my views were well known on here.

 

[CnoEvil]

---------------------------------------

 

[SiUK]

Things that are 'good enough' are usually superceded by things that also turn out to be 'good enough'.

CD is an example of how something that should have been consistently spectacular (on paper) turned out to be not fso spectacular, in my opinion. I have some really great CDs, but I also have some atrocious CDs as well, and they are not good enough by a long chalk. Basically they are becoming platters to store overly compressed cr*p on.

 

[fr0g]

Things that are 'good enough' are usually superceded by things that also turn out to be 'good enough'.

CD is an example of how something that should have been consistently spectacular (on paper) turned out to be not fso spectacular, in my opinion. I have some really great CDs, but I also have some atrocious CDs as well, and they are not good enough by a long chalk. Basically they are becoming platters to store overly compressed cr*p on.

This is certainly true. I have refused to buy many CDs recently because of this, even from bands I always collected EVERYTHING. I won't pay for compression distortion. I'd rather listen on Spotify and if it aint there, grab some dodgy mp3s.

The sooner people stop buying this crap, the better, but unfortunately that won¨'t happen.

This is the one saving grace of HD music imo. The HD bit is irrelevant and imo only used as a sales tactic and to grab more cash for the same thing, but they are usually mastered much more carefully.

 

[BenLaw]

Things that are 'good enough' are usually superceded by things that also turn out to be 'good enough'.

CD is an example of how something that should have been consistently spectacular (on paper) turned out to be not fso spectacular, in my opinion. I have some really great CDs, but I also have some atrocious CDs as well, and they are not good enough by a long chalk. Basically they are becoming platters to store overly compressed cr*p on.

But isn't that pretty conclusive proof that it's not the fault of the format? The bit rate and depth was designed so it was, in the truest sense of the words, 'good enough'. Problems are down to mastering and production.

 

[BenLaw]

if it aint there, grab some dodgy mp3s.

??