passive set up v active set up

[steve_1979]

There's a pair of DM9's in my local hifi classifieds. Could get for around £400. Very very tempted.

Which model of ADM9 are they?

It's worth getting the ADM9 'RS' ones if you can. The later models with 'RS' or 'RSS' in the name have better bass than the earlier versions.

 

[steve_1979]

DM10s & 5s share the very same tweeter..

Although you probably wouldn't have noticed it when listening to each speakers separately, the AVI tweeter does sound slightly smoother and clearer on the DM10 than it does on the DM5. It's probably due to the steeper 8th order crossover in the DM10 that does it.

It's only a slight difference which was unnoticeable until I setup the DM10 and DM5 right next to each other and did an instantaneous A/B switch while playing music.

 

[Alberich]

What speaks volumes for me here is a lack of of any stubborn attachment from Andrew towards his 'own' system.
It would be easy and understandable for him to fight the ATC/Hegel corner, and begrudgingly concede some areas to the DM10's.

But he seems to be giving credit were credit is due,
unequivocally declaring the AVI's superior on many levels,
even if it's at the expense of own kit.

To my mind that speaks volumes.

Ive tried to be as honest as possible but i still love my hegel and Atcs.

But the differences on clarity alone seem substantial - if it could be measured im not sure in % how it would compare. How much of an improvement makes that much different at the end of the day? Who knows

All is i can say at end of demo the sound jumped out of the speakers like nothing ive heard before. All for such a price. The point of demo was to see if a quality sound could be had for cheaper by going active and the answer imo is yes.

How does the treble performance on the DM10's compare to the SCM11's?
Is it as refined?
That new ATC in-house tweeter is special imo.

Both tweeters are good
i really like the atc.
I think the dm10 is even smoother - certainly clearer

Both are sweet sounding
Dms clearer though

Smoother and clearer?!
To say I'm intrigued would be an understatement.

 

[Alberich]

There's a pair of DM9's in my local hifi classifieds. Could get for around £400. Very very tempted.

Which model of ADM9 are they?

It's worth getting the ADM9 'RS' ones if you can. The later models with 'RS' or 'RSS' in the name have better bass than the earlier versions.

 

They're just 'ADM9' by the looks of it.
No RS in description or on the back.

 

[steve_1979]

Hi Steve

I've still got a DSP-E800. Good product particularly its S video performance.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

It's a fantastic piece of kit. I never use the video functions. I just use it as an audio only DAC and 2.1 pre-amp because it allows for easy adjustment of the subwoofer and has a volume display which the DM10s lack.

It only cost £8 off eBay too. I tried several more expensive 2.1 DAC/pre-amp options ranging from £180 to £350 and non of them quite worked for me for one reason or another. The Yamaha is ideal though. It's simple to use (AVRs had less functions back in 2001 which for my needs is actually a bonus), it seems to have slightly better build quality than modern AVRs and the sound from the 'pre-outs' is top notch. Coincidentally I compared the DAC section to my NJC DAC last night using an instantanious A/B swap and the old Yamaha sounds identical.

p.s. Sorry for the thread drift everyone. 🙂

 

[Morgunner]

They're just 'ADM9' by the looks of it. No RS in description or on the back.

Even older versions are very good value for a few hundred quid, but the latest models are quite a bit above the nines in sq. I have DM5s and they are clearly superior to my original ADM9s, especially regarding smoothness of treble and soundstaging. Also the bottom end is better controlled.

 

[thewinelake.]

But even the RS don't actually say RS on the back. Sometimes it's indicated by a red spot sticker!

 

[Morgunner]

But even the RS don't actually say RS on the back. Sometimes it's indicated by a red spot sticker!

True. First thing to check is does it have one (original ADM9) or two (later) optical inputs. RS does stand for Red Spot but that spot is/was just a round red sticker, so might not have stuck... You may want to go over to hddaudio.net to ask for advice on visual clues (driver appearance). Still, even the non-RS are a bargain at 400 for a DAC/Pre/Active Speakers.

 

[lindsayt]

In terms of cost yes my set up much more expensive but in terms specs no as the avi is a 4 seperate mono power amp 2 x 75w for hf, 2 x250w for lf. Hegel 2 x250. The avi also has pre amp and dac built in.

That is a misleading statement.

The Hegel H360 produces 250 watts into 8 ohms continuous.

The mid-bass amplification on the AVI speakers can not do that. They produce somewhere in the region of 70 watts into 8 ohms continuous.

as Ash says:...

lpv, so do you agree with me that it's misleading to describe your AVI speaker as having 250 watts output whilst describing the Hegel H360 as 250 watts also - with no provisos?

If we're describing the H360 as 250 watts (which it is into 8 ohms continuous)

then we should describe the AVI as c70 watts (which it is into 8 ohms continuous)

If we're describing the AVI as 250 watts (which it might be for instant peaks into 4 ohms)

then we should describe the Hegel H360 as c700 watts (which is the ballpark region for what it will be for intstant peaks into 4 ohms)

It was totally misleading to use the peak 4 ohm output of one amplifier compared against the 8 ohm continuous output of another amplifier.

 

[chebby]

Why point fingers at customers for misleading figures?

Without test facilities / equipment we all have to accept the specifications given by manufacturers.

If any misleading is going on it's not going to be the consumer is it?

Challenge the designer and manufacturer if you know they are misleading people. Don't pick on their customers.

AVI have a forum too. I suggest you join it and ask the owner these questions. He answers queries in person AFAIK.

 

[davedotco]

They're just 'ADM9' by the looks of it. No RS in description or on the back.

Even older versions are very good value for a few hundred quid, but the latest models are quite a bit above the nines in sq. I have DM5s and they are clearly superior to my original ADM9s, especially regarding smoothness of treble and soundstaging. Also the bottom end is better controlled.

They are exceptional value but they get consistently better with each incarnation.

Earlier models have a leaner bass response than the later ones, whether that works for you will depend on your room and what you expect/want recorded music to sound like. Coming from conventional hi-fi speakers with their deliberately 'warm' sound might prove a difficult transition.

If your setup has decent, usable eq then you should have no real problem, a touch of bass boost will do the job very nicely.

 

[steve_1979]

They're just 'ADM9' by the looks of it. No RS in description or on the back.

While they're a significant step behind the current DM10 or newer ADM9 RS's they're still a brilliant speaker and will give you a taste of what active AVIs offer.

For £400 they're a bargin of a speaker. Especially if you compare them to what else is available for £400.

 

[spiny norman]

combined with a mile wide soundstage..

Oh dear: are you sure they're in phase?

 

[Roger_A]

combined with a mile wide soundstage..

Oh dear: are you sure they're in phase?

They'd have to try hard to make them out of phase as there's no speaker cables to get mixed up - another advantage, albeit minor, of active speakers that I hadn't thought of before. *scratch_one-s_head*

Roger

 

[lindsayt]

Chebby I have been responding to what has been written in this thread.

I have been playing the ball, not the man.

Do you really want me to join a forum where the owner has already deeply insulted me personally?

I completely disagree with this statement: "Without test facilities / equipment we all have to accept the specifications given by manufacturers." Because: 1 we can refer to reputable independent tests. 2 we can use common sense and our knowledge and experience. 3 we can use our ears.

 

[Romulus]

So both combos sounded very good no doubt.

So as we started:

First song katie melua, id love to kill you

The Avi's clearly more clearer at first with the atcs more thicker on guitars. Still adjusting to the sound.

Played a few then first eye opener: bob marley i want to love you. Sounded ace on mine but then almost came alive on the avi- so much more real sounding.

So at this point for a while inwas skipping loads different tracks checking cetain details backwards and forwards, fanatically checking details and comparrisons.

So at this stage to sum up both sounded good but the Avi stood out on vocals even more so than mine.

At that stage if i gave the avi 10/10 id give the hegel/atc 8.5/10 in relation.

All this without sub on avi.

Id need more time to get used to all the subtle differences so we took a coffee break went back to playing and all the same. Both sounded good but avi won on vocals and midrange more apparent.

In my mind could easy feel the active has advantages over the passive but my passive setup keeping in sight but falling back as i take it all in.

Then i started packing up my stuff and Daruis stating playing some tracks that totally blew my up. Artists you wouldnt think of. Nat king cole, luther Vandross and some very modern electronic contemporary stuff that ive not heard of. All with little sub on now and im sold.

Cant explain the sound quality but so pure, real and live like i have to have a set of these.

All the clarity, texture and details are not at expense of anything musically at all.

Just lack of colour/distortion like the atcs but taken to a higher level and possibly unfair but then maybe 10/10 to 7.5/10.

Please i ask Daruis to give also his thoughts also. But the sound quality after a while of adjusting was just phenominal. No right to sound like this at the price. Believe all the hype.

Please excuse all spelling/gramar as im doing on ohone one hand whilst feeding dogs

Thank you for your above impressions. However could you please confirm what you used as scource to hear the above music? Was it CD, Turntable, Streaming ? Is the AVI DAC as good as DAC in Hegel ? Did you not miss this special clear Hegel House Sound when listening to the active AVI ? Lastly can the active AVI fill medium rooms to a loud level (Can one have a swinging party to active AVi DM10 with subwoofer?)

Romulus, all the answers are in the thread..

we did compare systems not dac's, amps, whatever

ps. I did many parties on marantz pm6004 and dali zensor 3's.. drunk people had to shout to hear each other, that loud it was

I note what you say, but I still have no assurance whether for example a DM10 will work well with a turntable or streaming. I have read the website, and its own forum. The testimonials are without names or addresses (I could of written them all) and I don't think AVI do no satisfaction money return policy like Mana Acoustics used to do. But on the other hand I believe the integrity of the contributors on this thread and I am impressed that Adrewjvt was so taken by AVI DM10, considering what he compared with the Hegel H360 & ACT SCM 11 . I just wonder what he would make of the ACT 11 SCM 19A with Hegel H360 (Active ACT) compared to AVI DM10, taking into consideration ofcourse the differences ratio in prices of the two active systems..?

 

[spiny norman]

They'd have to try hard to make them out of phase as there's no speaker cables to get mixed up

Assembly errors in either the internal wiring of the speakers or the cables used to connect them to the source could make one speaker out of phase with the other. Of course, I'm not suggesting this would even happen with AVI speakers, as we all know they are created by gods, who are by their very nature infallible; I'm just making the point that it's perfectly possible even for active speakers (yes, I know, incredible, isn't it?) to be out of phase.

 

[chebby]

I note what you say, but I still have no assurance whether for example a DM10 will work well with a turntable or streaming. I have read the website, and its own forum. The testimonials are without names or addresses (I could of written them all) and I don't think AVI do no satisfaction money return policy like Mana Acoustics used to do. But on the other hand I believe the integrity of the contributors on this thread and I am impressed that Adrewjvt was so taken by AVI DM10, considering what he compared with the Hegel H360 & ACT SCM 11 . I just wonder what he would make of the ACT 11 SCM 19A with Hegel H360 (Active ACT) compared to AVI DM10, taking into consideration ofcourse the differences ratio in prices of the two active systems..?

There are no assurances in life.

Testimonials should not have names and addresses because then people will come and steal their stuff and/or use the information to stalk them or help to steal identities.

'Could have' not 'could of'.

It's ATC not 'ACT'.

ATC SCM 19as are about £5000 a pair. (With no built-in DAC or pre-amp.) Thats probably why Andrew hasn't compared them! Maybe he isn't your personal equipment tester 🙂

 

[plastic penguin]

IMO Andrew's and IPV's appraisal is totally unhelpful after seeing the pictures of where and how the ATCs were sat.

In another thread IPV said the ATCs were ".congested, thick & distorted. not analitical and not smooth" Not surprising they sounded 'wrong' given they were sat on a wheelless tea trolley.

 

[Superaintit]

Fwiw I listened to the Avi dm9 when they came out.
They had an amazingly solid stereo image/soundstage where I could easily identify where the instruments were placed and how big they were. I was 2nd to none.

The clarity of the speakers was also very good. This resulted in good recordings and instruments sounding uncannily realistic. The adverse part of the same story is that electronic sounds sounded artificial and bad recordings really sounded unbearable to my ears.

Imo the treble was extended. The bass had a quick rolloff. The combination of these 2 resulted in a sound that was very clear but with an emphasis on the mid/treble with not much bass.

Still there strenths are considerable and if the new dm10 have improved their bass extension, a very nice proposition indeed.

 

[Ashley James]

Just a few points

1. Stereo image is wide because of impeccable phase behaviours in crossover region and the box is small.

2. The DM5s were designed for use with Sonos or Apple and AEX. Most do everything via phones or tablets now, but Apple seems the favourite. Just lately we've had a few Brennan users perhaps because of the review in Gramophone.

3. DM10s are more versatile because they have two digital and one analogue input and remote control. Record players need a separate RIAA phono stage and lots of customers use them.

4. Customer reviews are genuine and there are thousands because we've sold thousands over ten years.

5. ADM9RS was a completely new speaker and had different crossover and different drivers, so quite a lot better than earlier models and a lot more bass too.

6. DM10 was another totally new speaker with a specially designed bass driver and a full 8th order crossover. It has the same bass extension as the ADM9RS, but a smoother more detailed mid range and better stereo image.

The sound is extremely accurate and neutral and very powerful. Therefore the benefits are most obvious with Classical Music, Jazz, big band, folk, acoustic music and voice, Bluegrass or just rock intended to sound real. Lots of sound engineers in this area use them.

Se days hi fi is what dads had and most are coming to us from headphones, so have a more critical reference so they love DMs because they compare favourably. I use Sennheiser HD800s as my reference.

They won't suit everyone, but of the above are your thing, then try them.

Ash

 

[lpv]

just a reminder - I owned Atc 11s, 19s and most recently 40 active floorstanders with Atc pre amp, all properly set up, run in and on solid stands in case of 11s and 19s with top class amps from Electro and Atc.. and I still prefer Avi's.. best stands in the world wouldn't magically add clarity that's not available in the first place

 

[plastic penguin]

just a reminder - I owned Atc 11s, 19s and most recently 40 active floorstanders with Atc pre amp, all properly set up, run in and on solid stands in case of 11s and 19s with top class amps from Electro and Atc.. and I still prefer Avi's.. best stands in the world wouldn't magically add clarity that's not available in the first place

I understand that. Totally get you are smitten by the AVIs. No issues there.

The biggest problem I have is with the ATCs on less than adequate stands where the drivers are pointing towards the ceiling. No speaker is designed for that, and as it's not a like-for-like comparison I am naturally going to cast doubt on the comparison.

I'm not saying for one moment the AVIs are deficient, just an unfair dem. On top notch stands those ATCs will no doubt, as with any quality standmount speaker, will produce an awful lot more.

At least when I had the LS50s on home dem a few months ago they were set-up on my stands (however good or bad they might be) so I've got a definite comparison - something that's not gerrymandered to suit ones needs.

 

[spiny norman]

Just a few points

Listen to the banned.

 

[plastic penguin]

Just a few points

Listen to the banned.

Sure there's a Wings track. Oh yeah, 'Banned On The Run'.