passive set up v active set up

[Andrewjvt]

But my argument is that you can have passive speakers that have good accuracy and instrument detail the same as the active speakers .

 

like what? any examples?

how good are theses amps that they put in this active speakers  ? Where do this speaker companies source this amps from are they made in house or brought in if so were from and what is their quality and reliability like . 

 

check AVI forum and get the answer from where they have theirs

The hegal is one hell of an amp not just because of its power supply but because of the companies fine history of making fine amplifiers they are good at make amps and they do what they say on the tin play music very well and can handle the most difficult speakers out there . 

 

AVI built 600 watts per channel mono blocks, they wanted to start selling them but this massive and powerful amps weren't any better then the amps inside ADM9's

It's only my  but if it was me I would keep hold of that lovely hegal or find a speaker that would give you what your after . I watched a YouTube video of the hegal h360 hooked up to some top of the range floorstanding b&w speakers and the details that were coming out of the hegal were amazing . My opinion says you just have not found what your looking for yet Andrew or your new speakers need a bit more time  running in . But no disrespect to you mate your ears are the best tool here . 

 

you don't judge speakers watching you tube videos, don't you?

the youtube video .... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDAwCBSjT8E    .

i used my head phones its not the best way to tell but you can roughly tell how good the hagel is .

but like i have said above its only my opinion here ....  but would love to hear the hagel h360  hooked upto my dali opticon 8s which i think would sound amazing also think maybe a dealer would be the best person to ask this questions as they have there hands on lots of different speakers , amps , active speakers they would no surly what they thought was better in the sound quality front were I can only talk about what I have had or listened too in the past 

The h360 is a very good amp (possibly one of the best) and would propel your dali's 8 or any other passive speaker to its best possible.

What it cant do is magically overcome the handicap of an passive crossover.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

But my argument is that you can have passive speakers that have good accuracy and instrument detail the same as the active speakers .

like what? any examples?

how good are theses amps that they put in this active speakers ? Where do this speaker companies source this amps from are they made in house or brought in if so were from and what is their quality and reliability like .

check AVI forum and get the answer from where they have theirs

The hegal is one hell of an amp not just because of its power supply but because of the companies fine history of making fine amplifiers they are good at make amps and they do what they say on the tin play music very well and can handle the most difficult speakers out there .

AVI built 600 watts per channel mono blocks, they wanted to start selling them but this massive and powerful amps weren't any better then the amps inside ADM9's

It's only my but if it was me I would keep hold of that lovely hegal or find a speaker that would give you what your after . I watched a YouTube video of the hegal h360 hooked up to some top of the range floorstanding b&w speakers and the details that were coming out of the hegal were amazing . My opinion says you just have not found what your looking for yet Andrew or your new speakers need a bit more time running in . But no disrespect to you mate your ears are the best tool here .

you don't judge speakers watching you tube videos, don't you?

the youtube video .... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDAwCBSjT8E .

i used my head phones its not the best way to tell but you can roughly tell how good the hagel is .

but like i have said above its only my opinion here .... but would love to hear the hagel h360 hooked upto my dali opticon 8s which i think would sound amazing also think maybe a dealer would be the best person to ask this questions as they have there hands on lots of different speakers , amps , active speakers they would no surly what they thought was better in the sound quality front were I can only talk about what I have had or listened too in the past

The h360 is a very good amp (possibly one of the best) and would propel your dali's 8 or any other passive speaker to its best possible.

What it cant do is magically overcome the handicap of an passive crossover.

And yet your bitter objection to the use of subwoofers in a two channel system over the last six months with issues of phase, soundstage, being artificial and subwoofers mucks up the stereo has been overcome in an instant. Magically of course *ROFL* Only when it suits *biggrin*

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I dug this up about active speakers ............. lindsayt's wrote this Passive Speakers I have 3 different pairs of speakers that I currently use. All of them can be used with either passive amplification or they can be easily converted to actively bi-amped or fully active mode. I currently have 1 pair actively bi-amped and the other 2 pairs passive. My favourite speakers in terms of overall sound quality are one of the passive pairs, followed by the actively bi-amped pair. I think it's absolute cobblers to say that active speakers are more "accurate" than passive speakers - by my definition of accurate. Accurate to me meaning the sound that's produced in my room most closely resembles the sounds recorded. IE the detail, dynamics, pitch and tonal balance are all maintained as closely as possible to the recording - which overall produces the effect of recreating actual musicians playing actual instruments in my listening rooms. There are some speakers that some people have described as "accurate" that have sound tonally lean to me. Which makes me wonder if "accurate" gets used as a euphemism for "lean"? Or if "lean" speakers create the psycho-acoustic efffect of sounding "accurate" to some people? Hi-fi systems are full of sonic compromises. Generally speaking, the advantage of going active is that you're giving your amps an easier time which can result in greater dynamic ease from your system, as well as allowing you to use horses for courses amplification. This is at the expense of putting an active crossover in the signal path which can result in detail masking transistorised hash. Either way I don't think we're talking about a huge difference between active and passive with any particular speakers. More like 2 different flavours of the same thing. Active vs passive is only one ingredient of your amp / speaker combination. There are lots of factors that I think are more important to the overall sound quality of your system, such as driver type, driver quality, driver size, cabinet type, cabinet construction etc etc etc. ........ And my point is I think you can get just as good passive speakers as you can active or powered speakers

 

[lpv]

to stop all these please find a friendly chap who can demo some AVI's for you, put your 6k system in the car and find out yourself.. how's that?

 

[JamesMellor]

Well you've got to be honest and say your speakers are in the best place in the room , I assume you spent some time setting them up when you first got them , the acts seem to have been dumped on what ever with a couple of books aiming them up to ear height outside the triangle.

If you where bringing your speakers to my house for comparison would you want them placed so ?

James

 

[lindsayt]

to stop all these please find a friendly chap who can demo some AVI's for you, put your 6k system in the car and find out yourself.. how's that?

I already have.

The results of my listening tests were that the AVI's had a frequency response that was too lean for me. They also suffered from some dynamic compression. And they did not have any particularly magically redeeeming sonic qualities - such as the glorious midrange of Quad Electrostatics.

With ATC speakers, I don't think they get good until you get to the ATC 50's. Good in a way that I can understand why many owners are delighted with them even though they aren't my cup of tea.

 

[Romulus]

So both combos sounded very good no doubt.

So as we started:

First song katie melua, id love to kill you

The Avi's clearly more clearer at first with the atcs more thicker on guitars. Still adjusting to the sound.

Played a few then first eye opener: bob marley i want to love you. Sounded ace on mine but then almost came alive on the avi- so much more real sounding.

So at this point for a while inwas skipping loads different tracks checking cetain details backwards and forwards, fanatically checking details and comparrisons.

So at this stage to sum up both sounded good but the Avi stood out on vocals even more so than mine.

At that stage if i gave the avi 10/10 id give the hegel/atc 8.5/10 in relation.

All this without sub on avi.

Id need more time to get used to all the subtle differences so we took a coffee break went back to playing and all the same. Both sounded good but avi won on vocals and midrange more apparent.

In my mind could easy feel the active has advantages over the passive but my passive setup keeping in sight but falling back as i take it all in.

Then i started packing up my stuff and Daruis stating playing some tracks that totally blew my up. Artists you wouldnt think of. Nat king cole, luther Vandross and some very modern electronic contemporary stuff that ive not heard of. All with little sub on now and im sold.

Cant explain the sound quality but so pure, real and live like i have to have a set of these.

All the clarity, texture and details are not at expense of anything musically at all.

Just lack of colour/distortion like the atcs but taken to a higher level and possibly unfair but then maybe 10/10 to 7.5/10.

Please i ask Daruis to give also his thoughts also. But the sound quality after a while of adjusting was just phenominal. No right to sound like this at the price. Believe all the hype.

Please excuse all spelling/gramar as im doing on ohone one hand whilst feeding dogs

Thank you for your above impressions. However could you please confirm what you used as scource to hear the above music? Was it CD, Turntable, Streaming ? Is the AVI DAC as good as DAC in Hegel ? Did you not miss this special clear Hegel House Sound when listening to the active AVI ? Lastly can the active AVI fill medium rooms to a loud level (Can one have a swinging party to active AVi DM10 with subwoofer?)

 

[lpv]

Well you've got to be honest and say your speakers are in the best place in the room , I assume you spent some time setting them up when you first got them , the acts seem to have been dumped on what ever with a couple of books aiming them up to ear height outside the triangle.

If you where bringing your speakers to my house for comparison would you want them placed so ?

James

the room is far from being acoustically perfect and yes, this is the best place for speakers.. this is also room where our year old son plays quite a lot..

that ' whatever', these are target audio speakers stands that I used myself before... Andrew came with no stands so we used them..

 

[Andrewjvt]

So both combos sounded very good no doubt.

So as we started:

First song katie melua, id love to kill you

The Avi's clearly more clearer at first with the atcs more thicker on guitars. Still adjusting to the sound.

Played a few then first eye opener: bob marley i want to love you. Sounded ace on mine but then almost came alive on the avi- so much more real sounding.

So at this point for a while inwas skipping loads different tracks checking cetain details backwards and forwards, fanatically checking details and comparrisons.

So at this stage to sum up both sounded good but the Avi stood out on vocals even more so than mine.

At that stage if i gave the avi 10/10 id give the hegel/atc 8.5/10 in relation.

All this without sub on avi.

Id need more time to get used to all the subtle differences so we took a coffee break went back to playing and all the same. Both sounded good but avi won on vocals and midrange more apparent.

In my mind could easy feel the active has advantages over the passive but my passive setup keeping in sight but falling back as i take it all in.

Then i started packing up my stuff and Daruis stating playing some tracks that totally blew my up. Artists you wouldnt think of. Nat king cole, luther Vandross and some very modern electronic contemporary stuff that ive not heard of. All with little sub on now and im sold.

Cant explain the sound quality but so pure, real and live like i have to have a set of these.

All the clarity, texture and details are not at expense of anything musically at all.

Just lack of colour/distortion like the atcs but taken to a higher level and possibly unfair but then maybe 10/10 to 7.5/10.

Please i ask Daruis to give also his thoughts also. But the sound quality after a while of adjusting was just phenominal. No right to sound like this at the price. Believe all the hype.

Please excuse all spelling/gramar as im doing on ohone one hand whilst feeding dogs

Thank you for your above impressions.  However could you please confirm what you used as scource to hear the above music? Was it CD, Turntable, Streaming ?  Is the AVI DAC as good as DAC in Hegel ? Did you not miss this special clear Hegel House Sound when listening to the active AVI ?  Lastly can the active AVI fill medium rooms to a loud level (Can one have a swinging party to active AVi DM10 with subwoofer?)

I used my laptop with flac files to the hegel dac via usb.

The avi had airport express (i think) with spotify using same songs.

Could not hear any difference in dacs etc but that was not really an issue for both of us.

The clear hegel sound was even more clearer on the avi's.
The clarity of them is something that needs to be heard. The last few songs i listened to in the Avi was the best ive ever heard on any system. I think you need to have a listen. Go on avinforum and ask if anyone in your area has one to demo for you as I did.

As far as the party volume question: they go very loud but you'll need to ask an avi owner as im not sure about that at this stage. From what ive heard i say yes.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Well you've got to be honest and say your speakers are in the best place in the room , I assume you spent some time setting them up when you first got them , the acts seem to have been dumped on what ever with a couple of books aiming them up to ear height outside the triangle.

If you where bringing your speakers to my house for comparison would you want them placed so ? 

James 

 

the room is far from being acoustically perfect and yes, this is the best place for speakers.. this is also room where our year old son plays quite a lot..

that ' whatever', these are target audio speakers stands that I used myself before... Andrew came with no stands so we used them.. 

The stands were fine imo and and steady.

I dont think they affected the outcome. The atcs sounded great in them

 

[lpv]

So both combos sounded very good no doubt.

So as we started:

First song katie melua, id love to kill you

The Avi's clearly more clearer at first with the atcs more thicker on guitars. Still adjusting to the sound.

Played a few then first eye opener: bob marley i want to love you. Sounded ace on mine but then almost came alive on the avi- so much more real sounding.

So at this point for a while inwas skipping loads different tracks checking cetain details backwards and forwards, fanatically checking details and comparrisons.

So at this stage to sum up both sounded good but the Avi stood out on vocals even more so than mine.

At that stage if i gave the avi 10/10 id give the hegel/atc 8.5/10 in relation.

All this without sub on avi.

Id need more time to get used to all the subtle differences so we took a coffee break went back to playing and all the same. Both sounded good but avi won on vocals and midrange more apparent.

In my mind could easy feel the active has advantages over the passive but my passive setup keeping in sight but falling back as i take it all in.

Then i started packing up my stuff and Daruis stating playing some tracks that totally blew my up. Artists you wouldnt think of. Nat king cole, luther Vandross and some very modern electronic contemporary stuff that ive not heard of. All with little sub on now and im sold.

Cant explain the sound quality but so pure, real and live like i have to have a set of these.

All the clarity, texture and details are not at expense of anything musically at all.

Just lack of colour/distortion like the atcs but taken to a higher level and possibly unfair but then maybe 10/10 to 7.5/10.

Please i ask Daruis to give also his thoughts also. But the sound quality after a while of adjusting was just phenominal. No right to sound like this at the price. Believe all the hype.

Please excuse all spelling/gramar as im doing on ohone one hand whilst feeding dogs

Thank you for your above impressions. However could you please confirm what you used as scource to hear the above music? Was it CD, Turntable, Streaming ? Is the AVI DAC as good as DAC in Hegel ? Did you not miss this special clear Hegel House Sound when listening to the active AVI ? Lastly can the active AVI fill medium rooms to a loud level (Can one have a swinging party to active AVi DM10 with subwoofer?)

Romulus, all the answers are in the thread..

we did compare systems not dac's, amps, whatever

ps. I did many parties on marantz pm6004 and dali zensor 3's.. drunk people had to shout to hear each other, that loud it was

 

[davedotco]

Was clearly an informal affair, though both contributers are fairly experienced in hi-fi matters.

What is interesting is not their preferences, but the sense of difference between the two systems, the 'immediacy' and clarity of the AVIs against the warmth and weight of the ATCs, that is important.

I can understand why someone brought up on regular, passive systems might find this difference difficult to come to terms with, most passive setups are far more 'hi-fi' than the ATCs, which I consider among the most neutral of (passive) speakers.

To my mind it transcends the usual differences between passive speakers and does so in a way that makes thoughts of run in, different stands etc, etc, meaningless.

I think the persons involved in the audition understood this, the differences really are on a pretty fundamental level, a level that is difficult to get until you do the comparisons yourself.

 

[plastic penguin]

Those stands look like they've come straight from a charity shop. The ATCs are even firing towards the top of the ceiling. I've got no reason to doubt the AVI's sound quality, but if I'd have taken my speakers into a shop or a house and compared with another speaker that was properly placed on a quality stand, I would be less than satisfied.

How long does it take to transfer the AVI off the stand and place the ATC on? Two minutes tops?

Put some wheels on those stands and it's a dead ringer for the ma-in-law's tea trolley.

 

[Alberich]

What speaks volumes for me here is a lack of of any stubborn attachment from Andrew towards his 'own' system.
It would be easy and understandable for him to fight the ATC/Hegel corner, and begrudgingly concede some areas to the DM10's.

But he seems to be giving credit were credit is due,
unequivocally declaring the AVI's superior on many levels,
even if it's at the expense of own kit.

To my mind that speaks volumes.

 

[lpv]

Those stands look like they've come straight from a charity shop. The ATCs are even firing towards the top of the ceiling. I've got no reason to doubt the AVI's sound quality, but if I'd have taken my speakers into a shop or a house and compared with another speaker that was properly placed on a quality stand, I would be less than satisfied.

How long does it take to transfer the AVI off the stand and place the ATC on? Two minutes tops?

Put some wheels on those stands and it's a dead ringer for the ma-in-law's tea trolley.

well.. I've got all the cables tied in and hidden in the stands and then tied in to the stands as the stands got no cable management system then speakers are fixed to the stands on some 3M dual lock tape so the speakers won't slip off the stands accidentally so our youngest won't hurt himself... hardly 2 minutes job to take them off.. but if you knew it you wouldn't suggest such an obvious thing as swaping speakers on the stands, wouldn't you?

 

[ID.]

What speaks volumes for me here is a lack of of any stubborn attachment from Andrew towards his 'own' system. It would be easy and understandable for him to fight the ATC/Hegel corner, and begrudgingly concede some areas to the DM10's.

But he seems to be giving credit were credit is due, unequivocally declaring the AVI's superior on many levels, even if it's at the expense of own kit.

To my mind that speaks volumes.

Me too. When one has spent thousands on kit one enjoys, I'd assume the instinct to favor and justify one's own expenditure would be strong.

That's to say actives, or any speaker, Kit, or even brand is for everyone.

 

[plastic penguin]

Those stands look like they've come straight from a charity shop. The ATCs are even firing towards the top of the ceiling. I've got no reason to doubt the AVI's sound quality, but if I'd have taken my speakers into a shop or a house and compared with another speaker that was properly placed on a quality stand, I would be less than satisfied.

How long does it take to transfer the AVI off the stand and place the ATC on? Two minutes tops?

Put some wheels on those stands and it's a dead ringer for the ma-in-law's tea trolley.

well.. I've got all the cables tied in and hidden in the stands and then tied in to the stands as the stands got no cable management system then speakers are fixed to the stands on some 3M dual lock tape so the speakers won't slip off the stands accidentally so our youngest won't hurt himself... hardly 2 minutes job to take them off.. but if you knew it you wouldn't suggest such an obvious thing as swaping speakers on the stands, wouldn't you?

Okay, concede it's a bit of a faff, but if you was to walk into let's say Rick's Musicraft to test speakers, regardless of whether they were active or passive, would you be happy to see your prospective new bundles dem'd on a tea trolley?

I know you're a devoted AVI fanboy, that's good. You must realise, however, the stands the ATCs were on are not comparable to the ones used for the AVIs.

This is not a rant at AVI but total dismay at the disparity of the siting of each of the speakers.

 

[steve_1979]

Lastly can the active AVI fill medium rooms to a loud level (Can one have a swinging party to active AVi DM10 with subwoofer?)

Yes the DM10s will go very loud even in a large room when listened to from a distance. Not only do they go very loud but more importantly they also sound effortless at high volume levels too. They sound just as clear and smooth right up to their full volume as they do when playing at a whisper. Almost all passive hifi speakers and amps can't do this at all and start 'hardening up' long before they get anywhere near to their full volume.

I don't know if you've ever heard any of the expensive*, high powered pro-audio monitors such as the Event Opals or Quested V2108 monitors but the DM10 are similar in this respect. They don't change their sound as you turn them up they just get louder and louder and keep on going long after you feel they should have given up. All the while still sounding clear and smooth like they aren't even trying despite the ear damaging chest pumping volume levels.

* The same thing isn't true of cheap active speakers though. It's only the good quality high powered ones that seem to start around the £2000 - £3000 mark which tend to have this effortless quality no matter what volume they're played at.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Was clearly an informal affair, though both contributers are fairly experienced in hi-fi matters.

What is interesting is not their preferences, but the sense of difference between the two systems, the 'immediacy' and clarity of the AVIs against the warmth and weight of the ATCs, that is important.

I can understand why someone brought up on regular, passive systems might find this difference difficult to come to terms with, most passive setups are far more 'hi-fi' than the ATCs, which I consider among the most neutral of (passive) speakers.

To my mind it transcends the usual differences between passive speakers and does so in a way that makes thoughts of run in, different stands etc, etc, meaningless.

I think the persons involved in the audition understood this, the differences really are on a pretty fundamental level, a level that is difficult to get until you do the comparisons yourself.

I also agree that Atc passive are one of the most neutral. On their own in my house today sounded very good this morning. Played a Cat Stevens track that i had to play 3 times in a row it was that good.

Youve made a good point of highlighting my atcs only sounded less neutral/clear in direct comparison to the Avi's

 

[Andrewjvt]

What speaks volumes for me here is a lack of of any stubborn attachment from Andrew towards his 'own' system.
It would be easy and understandable for him to fight the ATC/Hegel corner, and begrudgingly concede some areas to the DM10's.

But he seems to be giving credit were credit is due,
unequivocally declaring the AVI's superior on many levels,
even if it's at the expense of own kit.

To my mind that speaks volumes.

Ive tried to be as honest as possible but i still love my hegel and Atcs.

But the differences on clarity alone seem substantial - if it could be measured im not sure in % how it would compare. How much of an improvement makes that much different at the end of the day? Who knows

All is i can say at end of demo the sound jumped out of the speakers like nothing ive heard before. All for such a price. The point of demo was to see if a quality sound could be had for cheaper by going active and the answer imo is yes.

 

[Alberich]

What speaks volumes for me here is a lack of of any stubborn attachment from Andrew towards his 'own' system.
It would be easy and understandable for him to fight the ATC/Hegel corner, and begrudgingly concede some areas to the DM10's.

But he seems to be giving credit were credit is due,
unequivocally declaring the AVI's superior on many levels,
even if it's at the expense of own kit.

To my mind that speaks volumes.

Ive tried to be as honest as possible but i still love my hegel and Atcs.

But the differences on clarity alone seem substantial - if it could be measured im not sure in % how it would compare. How much of an improvement makes that much different at the end of the day? Who knows

All is i can say at end of demo the sound jumped out of the speakers like nothing ive heard before. All for such a price. The point of demo was to see if a quality sound could be had for cheaper by going active and the answer imo is yes.

How does the treble performance on the DM10's compare to the SCM11's?
Is it as refined?
That new ATC in-house tweeter is special imo.

 

[lpv]

DM10s & 5s share the very same tweeter.. smooth is what comes to mind when I try to describe it.. uber smooth; that's probably one of the reasons DM's are so easy to listen to.. clarity and smoothness.. and occasional 3D effects as you would listen to sorround sound combined with a mile wide soundstage..

 

[steve_1979]

... Anyway, I was thinking of getting a system along the lines of Steve1979's, still keeping the Technics but the rest can basically go. ...

If you're thinking of a similar system to mine it's worth noting that the Yamaha DSP E-800 is exellent for audio only duties if all you want is a simple DAC with a 2.1 pre-amp and they can be picked up for peanuts now bacause nobody wants old AVRs which don't have HDMI sockets.

The only other good option that I found for a DAC with 2.1 pre-amp which also allows remote controlled easy adjustment of the subwoofer, is the Marantz NR1504. The Marantz is a much more modern unit which has more functions than the Yamaha. Depending on your requirements, the Marantz may fit in better with modern day life than the old Yamaha (mainly due to it having HDMI sockets).

 

[Andrewjvt]

What speaks volumes for me here is a lack of of any stubborn attachment from Andrew towards his 'own' system.
It would be easy and understandable for him to fight the ATC/Hegel corner, and begrudgingly concede some areas to the DM10's.

But he seems to be giving credit were credit is due,
unequivocally declaring the AVI's superior on many levels,
even if it's at the expense of own kit.

To my mind that speaks volumes.

Ive tried to be as honest as possible but i still love my hegel and Atcs.

But the differences on clarity alone seem substantial - if it could be measured im not sure in % how it would compare. How much of an improvement makes that much different at the end of the day? Who knows

All is i can say at end of demo the sound jumped out of the speakers like nothing ive heard before. All for such a price. The point of demo was to see if a quality sound could be had for cheaper by going active and the answer imo is yes.

How does the treble performance on the DM10's compare to the SCM11's?
Is it as refined?
That new ATC in-house tweeter is special imo.

Both tweeters are good
i really like the atc.
I think the dm10 is even smoother - certainly clearer

Both are sweet sounding
Dms clearer though

 

[Alberich]

DM10s & 5s share the very same tweeter.. smooth is what comes to mind when I try to describe it.. uber smooth; that's probably one of the reasons DM's are so easy to listen to.. clarity and smoothness.. and occasional 3D effects as you would listen to sorround sound combined with a mile wide soundstage.. 

There's a pair of DM9's in my local hifi classifieds. Could get for around £400.
Very very tempted.