passive set up v active set up

[lpv]

In terms of cost yes my set up much more expensive but in terms specs no as the avi is a 4 seperate mono power amp 2 x 75w for hf, 2 x250w for lf. Hegel 2 x250. The avi also has pre amp and dac built in.

That is a misleading statement.

The Hegel H360 produces 250 watts into 8 ohms continuous.

The mid-bass amplification on the AVI speakers can not do that. They produce somewhere in the region of 70 watts into 8 ohms continuous.

as Ash says:

" Both points are misunderstandings and have often been explained.

1. Music comprises of a continuous requirement of less than a watt. If you're speakers are 87 dB/W/m, one Watt produces 87dB which is bloody loud, so continuosly less than one is plenty loud enough. However there are lots of continuous peaks that can require hundreds of Watts. They're over quickly so just seem clear if the amp can produce them without clipping. Piano hammers hitting strings and snare drums are the obvious ones, but all sorts of sounds you wouldn't expect to, have these peaks. Our amazing clarity is partly because we have more headroom than the competition.

Because of this peak to mean ratio, the continuous power requirement of an amplifier rarely exceeds 10 Watts and of you try to put a continuous 250 Watts into a driver, two things will happen quickly. A. The driver will quickly destroy and B. The peaks would require thousands of Watts that the amp cannot possibly produce, so it's clip like hell.

The power amps in the DM10s produce 500 Watt peaks into their drivers or 250 Watts is a fair guide and a more conservative rating than most active speaker manufacturers use. Our claims are conservative.

Most modern power amps are rated the same way, but various high end one may well be able to drive a continuous few hundred Watts. Think of it as asking for a glass of Water and Plastic Penguin turning up with a 10,000 gallon tanker. Pointless.

Likewise I have explained on numerous occasions that we have two UK dealers who've been with us since the company started, one in his seventies. They both sell DMs and we share our margin with them because they're are friends. Normal passive speakers in hi fi shops have absolutely colossal margins in them and if we had the same, even the DM5s would be over £2,000. By controlling dealer margins and not selling through hi fi shops Yamaha make an absolutely superb 5" two that is at least as good and the loony tunes hi fi efforts and beautifully finished for £229."

 

[abacus]

Their speakers are unusual in that they are an integrated active system deliberately designed for hi-fi use. There are many such designs but most are made for the pro/home studiomarket.

The industrial looks of such speakers tend to put a lot of people off and, in my view, contributes a lot to the percieved sound quality, often in a negative way. I am fortunate in that my actives, like the AVI's are very acceptable domestically (slim piano black columns) and it is interesting that they seem much more acceptable to others because of that.

I have had, on occasion, much better speakers at home that have been recieved less well possibly because of their 'studio' looks, I find that quite interesting. The point being that, for those who do not wish to spend the £1600 or so for the ADMs, or for that matter the £700 for the diminutive DM5, there are some very decent active designs (some dross too, beware) available at budget prices, starting with the Presonus Eris 5, still available around £200pr if you look around.

Assuming you can live with the 'studio' looks of course.

+1

 

[Andrewjvt]

Please put pictures on as people can see the looks of them.

 

[lpv]

 

[CnoEvil]

Thank you for posting your thoughts.

By any chance, did you try swaping the stands over as well, as the ATCs could well sound better on those very solid looking jobbies (Soundstyle Z1s?) under the AVIs.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Have your ATCs run in yet Andrew?!

 

[lpv]

Thank you for posting your thoughts.

By any chance, did you try swaping the stands over as well, as the ATCs could well sound better on those very solid looking jobbies (Soundstyle Z1s?) under the AVIs.

That's the Soundstyle Z1 indeed.. if only Andrew had more time we could try swaping stands etc

 

[Andrewjvt]

In terms of cost yes my set up much more expensive but in terms specs no as the avi is a 4 seperate mono power amp 2 x 75w for hf, 2 x250w for lf. Hegel 2 x250. The avi also has pre amp and dac built in.

That is a misleading statement.

The Hegel H360 produces 250 watts into 8 ohms continuous.

The mid-bass amplification on the AVI speakers can not do that. They produce somewhere in the region of 70 watts into 8 ohms continuous.

I don't think Andrew is intending to mis-lead us. It's just what anyone can read from the manufacturer's website in both cases. 

I also don't think Andrew is going to care given his previous comments on the performance.

While its obvious that the hegel has the more robust power supply the avi's go incredibly loud and stay composed and clear with no distortion.

The amps in the avi are also 4 x mono block to suit the drivers and is very efficient.

The hegel on the other hand is designed to deal with a whole different range of different speaker loads etc.

In the real world playing i dont think anyone would need more power unless they are in a very large room and want party levels though.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Have your ATCs run in yet Andrew?!

Not sure David, they have had over 30 hours at least.

Atc say 150 hours but ive not noticed any changes in sq

 

[Andrewjvt]

Well that surprised me ! I really thought the passive speakers would be better . How meany hours have you had out of your new speakers then Andrew ?  So does this mean the hagal h-360 is in for a trade-in then for some actives ? 

Im not sure at this stage.
Regards active v passive: if you have passive set up its easy to enjoy and will sound good.

If you change to active and get used to it imo will be very hard to go back to passives after the accuarcy of active though.

Im talking good quality actives

 

[CnoEvil]

Thank you for posting your thoughts.

By any chance, did you try swaping the stands over as well, as the ATCs could well sound better on those very solid looking jobbies (Soundstyle Z1s?) under the AVIs.

That's the Soundstyle Z1 indeed.. if only Andrew had more time we could try swaping stands etc

Thank you.

IME. The effect of stands shouldn't be underestimated, so it would be interesting to re-do the bakeoff, but with the stands changed around (and when the ATCs have been fully run in).....not that the result would be different, but it might be much closer.

 

[lpv]

Thank you for posting your thoughts.

By any chance, did you try swaping the stands over as well, as the ATCs could well sound better on those very solid looking jobbies (Soundstyle Z1s?) under the AVIs.

That's the Soundstyle Z1 indeed.. if only Andrew had more time we could try swaping stands etc

Thank you.

IME. The effect of stands shouldn't be underestimated, so it would be interesting to re-do the bakeoff, but with the stands changed around (and when the ATCs have been fully run in).....not that the result would be different, but it might be much closer.

even if the two set ups are identical there's no reason to buy hegel/ atc from financial perspective

 

[ID.]

Well that surprised me ! I really thought the passive speakers would be better . How meany hours have you had out of your new speakers then Andrew ? So does this mean the hagal h-360 is in for a trade-in then for some actives ?

Im not sure at this stage. Regards active v passive: if you have passive set up its easy to enjoy and will sound good.

If you change to active and get used to it imo will be very hard to go back to passives after the accuarcy of active though.

Im talking good quality actives

If you like the presents, it's hard to go back, even after relatively reasonably priced actives. For my main setup I can't see myself going for anything other than better quality active speakers

At some stage if I have the space, etc. I may do a second setup with a beefy Japanese amp bought 2nd hand and whatever speakers tickle my fancy on the 2nd hand market, but that's more because I like the look of the gear and a bit of fun rather than pursuing a particular sound. Still nothing near lindsayt levels.

 

[CnoEvil]

Thank you for posting your thoughts.

By any chance, did you try swaping the stands over as well, as the ATCs could well sound better on those very solid looking jobbies (Soundstyle Z1s?) under the AVIs.

That's the Soundstyle Z1 indeed.. if only Andrew had more time we could try swaping stands etc

Thank you.

IME. The effect of stands shouldn't be underestimated, so it would be interesting to re-do the bakeoff, but with the stands changed around (and when the ATCs have been fully run in).....not that the result would be different, but it might be much closer.

even if the two set ups are identical there's no reason to buy hegel/ atc from financial perspective

You may be right but it's hard for me to meanfully comment, as I haven't heard any of the components that were compared. The only Actives that I have listoned to, were very expensive ones from Linn and Meridian.

I just know that the set up can make a very big difference and those ATCs may well take the 150 hours to come on song.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

and the winner is ......... Passive......... Passive *pleasantry*

Hi Blacksabbath

Just catching up with this thread as i've been somewhat busy going through old CCTV footage *biggrin*

Like i said some clients prefer actives and others passive

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Well that surprised me ! I really thought the passive speakers would be better . How meany hours have you had out of your new speakers then Andrew ? So does this mean the hagal h-360 is in for a trade-in then for some actives ?

Im not sure at this stage. Regards active v passive: if you have passive set up its easy to enjoy and will sound good.

If you change to active and get used to it imo will be very hard to go back to passives after the accuarcy of active though.

Im talking good quality actives

I do not no a lot about active speakers only that they have a built in amp inside .

But my argument is that you can have passive speakers that have good accuracy and instrument detail the same as the active speakers .

how good are theses amps that they put in this active speakers ? Where do this speaker companies source this amps from are they made in house or brought in if so were from and what is their quality and reliability like .

The hegal is one hell of an amp not just because of its power supply but because of the companies fine history of making fine amplifiers they are good at make amps and they do what they say on the tin play music very well and can handle the most difficult speakers out there .

It's only my opinion but if it was me I would keep hold of that lovely hegal or find a speaker that would give you what your after . I watched a YouTube video of the hegal h360 hooked up to some top of the range floorstanding b&w speakers and the details that were coming out of the hegal were amazing . My opinion says you just have not found what your looking for yet Andrew or your new speakers need a bit more time running in . But no disrespect to you mate your ears are the best tool here .

 

[plastic penguin]

Congrats to Andrew on a satisfactory dem. They do sound like crackers. Always good to get a variety of opinions regardless of the set-up.

I wonder now If Andrew has shelved the idea, after hearing the AVIs, of building his own active speakers.

But looking at the pictures I do wonder, with the combo of a properly run in speaker and the right stands, the ATCs should have a lot more to give.

 

[lpv]

Congrats to Andrew on a satisfactory dem. They do sound like crackers. Always good to get a variety of opinions regardless of the set-up.

I wonder now If Andrew has shelved the idea, after hearing the AVIs, of building his own active speakers.

But looking at the pictures I do wonder, with the combo of a properly run in speaker and the right stands, the ATCs should have a lot more to give.

Andrew played CD rips from his JRiver player and I've played same songs from Spotify.

 

[thewinelake.]

I'm sure the Hegel is likely a better all-round amp than that inside the AVI, with the ability to handle lots of different loads well. Thing is that the AVI amp's job is so much easier - having to drive just one driver without any funny crossovers, that perhaps it's understandable that one can get away with something simpler.

I'd like to see a comparison of a bi-amped ATC driven by a pair of Hegels... What would do the crossing over in that case?

 

[plastic penguin]

Congrats to Andrew on a satisfactory dem. They do sound like crackers. Always good to get a variety of opinions regardless of the set-up.

I wonder now If Andrew has shelved the idea, after hearing the AVIs, of building his own active speakers.

But looking at the pictures I do wonder, with the combo of a properly run in speaker and the right stands, the ATCs should have a lot more to give.

Andrew played CD rips from his JRiver player and I've played same songs from Spotify.

Sorry, IPV, perhaps I'm thick. If so I apologise, but what has a source got to do with speaker stand performance and/or a properly run in speaker?

 

[lpv]

But my argument is that you can have passive speakers that have good accuracy and instrument detail the same as the active speakers .

like what? any examples?

how good are theses amps that they put in this active speakers ? Where do this speaker companies source this amps from are they made in house or brought in if so were from and what is their quality and reliability like .

check AVI forum and get the answer from where they have theirs

The hegal is one hell of an amp not just because of its power supply but because of the companies fine history of making fine amplifiers they are good at make amps and they do what they say on the tin play music very well and can handle the most difficult speakers out there .

AVI built 600 watts per channel mono blocks, they wanted to start selling them but this massive and powerful amps weren't any better then the amps inside ADM9's

It's only my opinion but if it was me I would keep hold of that lovely hegal or find a speaker that would give you what your after . I watched a YouTube video of the hegal h360 hooked up to some top of the range floorstanding b&w speakers and the details that were coming out of the hegal were amazing . My opinion says you just have not found what your looking for yet Andrew or your new speakers need a bit more time running in . But no disrespect to you mate your ears are the best tool here .

you don't judge speakers watching you tube videos, don't you?

 

[MUSICRAFT]

you don't judge speakers watching you tube videos, don't you?

But on the other hand it's perfectly acceptable to buy an expensive £3400 amplifier unheard and unseen.

Btw, as neither of you have said or implied it was the H360/curved SCM11 transducer combination also heard with the subwoofer?

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Naturally.

Hi plastic penguin

That's funny *biggrin*

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

That's the point. We all, including myself, get caught up in this in this mad caldron of upgradeitus... or we must have this or that because...

Yet we forget about people, like me, who is still gets a sonic thrill from our existing components.

I would never slag off anyone for trying something different, and if people get a buzz from that then hats off to them.

Personally speaking, wild horses would not drag me away from my current system. It does a great job and some...

As regards Andrew testing actives against more expensive passive set-up is good to read, but has no relevance to me or any future set-up I might be planning.

Hi plastic penguin

I think you might have got the wrong end of the stick as i was referring to something else. As to the rest that's fair enough

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

My stick is firmly placed in the right direction. *biggrin*

It was just a summary of my posts to you and Andrew. It'll make a good read but my stick is concreted firmly into the ground (Windsock! Anyone got a windsock?) *ROFL*

Hi plastic penguin

*biggrin*

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Blacksabbath25]

But my argument is that you can have passive speakers that have good accuracy and instrument detail the same as the active speakers .

like what? any examples?

how good are theses amps that they put in this active speakers ? Where do this speaker companies source this amps from are they made in house or brought in if so were from and what is their quality and reliability like .

check AVI forum and get the answer from where they have theirs

The hegal is one hell of an amp not just because of its power supply but because of the companies fine history of making fine amplifiers they are good at make amps and they do what they say on the tin play music very well and can handle the most difficult speakers out there .

AVI built 600 watts per channel mono blocks, they wanted to start selling them but this massive and powerful amps weren't any better then the amps inside ADM9's

It's only my but if it was me I would keep hold of that lovely hegal or find a speaker that would give you what your after . I watched a YouTube video of the hegal h360 hooked up to some top of the range floorstanding b&w speakers and the details that were coming out of the hegal were amazing . My opinion says you just have not found what your looking for yet Andrew or your new speakers need a bit more time running in . But no disrespect to you mate your ears are the best tool here .

you don't judge speakers watching you tube videos, don't you?

the youtube video .... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDAwCBSjT8E .

i used my head phones its not the best way to tell but you can roughly tell how good the hagel is .

but like i have said above its only my opinion here .... but would love to hear the hagel h360 hooked upto my dali opticon 8s which i think would sound amazing also think maybe a dealer would be the best person to ask this questions as they have there hands on lots of different speakers , amps , active speakers they would no surly what they thought was better in the sound quality front were I can only talk about what I have had or listened too in the past

 

[lpv]

Congrats to Andrew on a satisfactory dem. They do sound like crackers. Always good to get a variety of opinions regardless of the set-up.

I wonder now If Andrew has shelved the idea, after hearing the AVIs, of building his own active speakers.

But looking at the pictures I do wonder, with the combo of a properly run in speaker and the right stands, the ATCs should have a lot more to give.

Andrew played CD rips from his JRiver player and I've played same songs from Spotify.

Sorry, IPV, perhaps I'm thick. If so I apologise, but what has a source got to do with speaker stand performance and/or a properly run in speaker?

well.. if the stands used were not right and speakers not run in then maybe, just maybe and in the same spirit, flac's are better than ogg vorbis