How important is a good recorded music to you?

[cheeseboy]

I have given up buying new music as in most cases it is unlistenable to.

your loss I'm afraid

Whether it was intentional or not, it also makes it sound like you're more in to how the music is presented/produced, then actually listening to to music itself.

 

[matt49]

It's one of Nevermind's masterful achievements I feel - it's meant to sound like a lo-fi grungy record, but with Butch Vig behind the controls, and the perfectionism of Cobain the studio, it's actually an incredibly layered and in some cases, quite complex recording, and geffen got behind it in a big way, so not surprising as to how well it actually sounds.

Although in context of the thread, whilst a good recording is a great thing and having spent many hours in studios, something to be admired, it doesn't bother me that much as I tend listen to the music, not the production/hifi etc as for me, good music is good music, no matter what it's played on, or how it was recorded.

(a) the production of Nevermind is one of its "masterful achievements"

(b) "it doesn't bother me that much as I tend listen to the music, not the production/hifi etc as for me, good music is good music, no matter what it's played on, or how it was recorded"

Eh?

 

[CnoEvil]

Think this is very true with some SS amps. Nevertheless, regardless of the type of amp (standard SS, Class A or tube) it will always be a compromise... but to say that a "lot of solid state amps add to the problem" is unfair on the majority of classier SS amps available. That said, even with the best it'll still sound rubbish with below par recordings, if the speakers and source isn't right.

The main thing is to enjoy the music regardless of the recording.

That is not a definitive statement, but reflects my POV, taste and experience.

If Valve amps were much more widely available (and demoed), it is my belief that more people would share my opinion.

IIRC Steve has said he wishes he had heard the Icon Audio before he bought the Rega. I also suspect, the longer he listens to his new amp, the less tolerant he will become of a lot of SS amps which can sound a bit "gritty" if not very carefully matched with speakers.....of course, this is all in my humble opinion.

The problem is that you won't know what you may prefer, if you haven't heard what's available.....which I know isn't always practical.

 

[cheeseboy]

(a) the production of Nevermind is one of its "masterful achievements"

(b) "it doesn't bother me that much as I tend listen to the music, not the production/hifi etc as for me, good music is good music, no matter what it's played on, or how it was recorded"

Eh?

eh what?

 

[matt49]

(a) the production of Nevermind is one of its "masterful achievements"

(b) "it doesn't bother me that much as I tend listen to the music, not the production/hifi etc as for me, good music is good music, no matter what it's played on, or how it was recorded"

Eh?

eh what?

(b) contradicts (a).

 

[cheeseboy]

(a) the production of Nevermind is one of its "masterful achievements"

(b) "it doesn't bother me that much as I tend listen to the music, not the production/hifi etc as for me, good music is good music, no matter what it's played on, or how it was recorded"

Eh?

eh what?

(b) contradicts (a).

no it doesn't, only if you think you *have* to be on one side or the other.

I've spent a lot of time in studios, gigging, recording, soundmixing etc so have been lucky enough to listen to all types of music, and all types of presentations of music. Doesn't mean that I still can't appreciate a) the music itself removed from the production or b) the production removed from the music.

It's my choice if I decide to listen to the production values of the music, or the music itself. What I was saying that if I think music is good, I can enjoy it regardless of the production values/equipment it's played back on/sound mixing etc. However that also doesn't meant that I also can't enjoy a well produced bit of music on some nice kit.

I know that for some people, they chose not to enjoy music which they feel has inferior production values or played back on inferior equipment, as has already been said in this thread. That's up to them, but it's not how it is for me.

Hope that helps clarify things.

 

[matt49]

no it doesn't, only if you think you *have* to be on one side or the other.

I've spent a lot of time in studios, gigging, recording, soundmixing etc so have been lucky enough to listen to all types of music, and all types of presentations of music. Doesn't mean that I still can't appreciate a) the music itself removed from the production or b) the production removed from the music.

It's my choice if I decide to listen to the production values of the music, or the music itself. What I was saying that if I think music is good, I can enjoy it regardless of the production values/equipment it's played back on/sound mixing etc. However that also doesn't meant that I also can't enjoy a well produced bit of music on some nice kit.

I know that for some people, they chose not to enjoy music which they feel has inferior production values or played back on inferior equipment, as has already been said in this thread. That's up to them, but it's not how it is for me.

Hope that helps clarify things.

Yes, that makes a lot more sense to me. I thought in your previous post you were being a bit sniffy about people who do care about production. But you've made it clear that's not what you meant.

 

[cheeseboy]

Yes, that makes a lot more sense to me. I thought in your previous post you were being a bit sniffy about people who do care about production. But you've made it clear that's not what you meant.

yep, tis sometimes tricky to get things over without sounding spikey....

so, just to confuse matters, yes and no. Not being sniffy, I just think it's a bit sad (not in the insulting way, but in the way for the musicians) if people are willing to dismiss music because of the production, as they could and will miss out on some great stuff is all. But I do appreciate how people can get used to certain levels of things and not want to go below that, and if that's their choice, then that's totally up to them and it's something I ain't going to argue about. (for a change )

 

[emperor's new clothes]

Having just recovered from my first spell of upgradeitus for nearly two decades - my AV bug is a little more frequent - I concurr with the learned posters above. At last, a thread that addresses the "elephant in the room' of HiFi. I took my favorite hybrid SACDs to the first few demos, but soon felt that that the lively, detailed top end would not fare so well with compressed or poor recordings. Sure enough, the next demos with additional bad Cds had me scurrying back to my elderly Meridian. I have no doubt that further up the tree, there are Coplands etc that would win hands down, as would valve amps. My introduction to HIFi was my Dad's Quad valve amp in the 60s. I have compromised with new speakers -unexpectedly Dyns - and added a irDAC. Job done even 128kbps internet radio can sound surprisingly good.

Pleased to see Sony addopting DSD/SACD for their new HD products.

Interesting post from elsewhere

http://www.stereophile.com/content/jared-sacks-dsd-present-and-future

 

[plastic penguin]

Think this is very true with some SS amps. Nevertheless, regardless of the type of amp (standard SS, Class A or tube) it will always be a compromise... but to say that a "lot of solid state amps add to the problem" is unfair on the majority of classier SS amps available. That said, even with the best it'll still sound rubbish with below par recordings, if the speakers and source isn't right.

The main thing is to enjoy the music regardless of the recording.

That is not a definitive statement, but reflects my POV, taste and experience.

If Valve amps were much more widely available (and demoed), it is my belief that more people would share my opinion.

IIRC Steve has said he wishes he had heard the Icon Audio before he bought the Rega. I also suspect, the longer he listens to his new amp, the less tolerant he will become of a lot of SS amps which can sound a bit "gritty" if not very carefully matched with speakers.....of course, this is all in my humble opinion.

The problem is that you won't know what you may prefer, if you haven't heard what's available.....which I know isn't always practical.

I honestly do understand where you're coming from. I have heard some real shockers...Still think it's unfair, regardless of taste, experience etc etc., to tar most SS amps with the same brush. If I said a "lot of valve amps are too whatever" I'm pretty sure I would be crucified on here.

Regards Steve, let's see if his enthusiasm with Icon is still the same in 3 months.

 

[matt49]

I just think it's a bit sad (not in the insulting way, but in the way for the musicians) if people are willing to dismiss music because of the production, as they could and will miss out on some great stuff is all.

Yes, indeed.

 

[CnoEvil]

. If I said a "lot of valve amps are too whatever" I'm pretty sure I would be crucified on here.

If that statement came from personal experience and could be be backed up with examples, it's generally not a problem, as everybody is entitled to have a preference.

I think it's sweeping generalizations (from both camps), based on little more than conjecture, that sets people off......I'm not having a go btw.

 

[plastic penguin]

. If I said a "lot of valve amps are too whatever" I'm pretty sure I would be crucified on here.

If that statement came from personal experience and could be be backed up with examples, it's generally not a problem, as everybody is entitled to have a preference.

I think it's sweeping generalizations (from both camps), based on little more than conjecture, that sets people off......I'm not having a go btw.

Cno, I trust you more than most when comes to high end hi-fi stuff. I think I've mentioned similar before. However, you are wrong to think it is a sweeping generalisation or conjecture.

For me it's about experience - not saying I have huge amount of valve or Class A experience, that would be totally wrong, but hearing so much over the 30-odd years, as well as owning various types of SS, and I've heard auditioned real 'plums'. But for every duff amp I've heard there's been 10 I've liked.

It's about keeping everything in context: The OP owns the same amp as you. I've lost count the amount of times you said: "The 35i is the best below 10k..." and you've banged on about Electrocompaniet stuff. With the OP's 35i and Electro you are talking the best part of 10k collectively. This can only mean the OP's system is seriously flawed, or something is amiss elsewhere...

We're no mugs in the hi-fi world, and I've never ever said that Valve amps are crud. I think some SS amps are complete pants but you cannot say most SS amps are equal.

Let's go back to your experience with Leema: You heard the Pulse with Focal speakers of some description, in a dem room at a dealers. I would never recommend Focal with Leema (despite loving Focal with certain amps).

I just wish hi-fi was that cut and dried: All SS amps aren't worthy and all Valves are the best things since sliced bread. Think somehow Chebby, JD, MP, yours truly.... and many others would disagree given our individual budgets.

 

[CnoEvil]

Cno, I trust you more than most when comes to high end hi-fi stuff. I think I've mentioned similar before. However, you are wrong to think it is a sweeping generalisation or conjecture.

I think you are reading more into my comments than was my intention.

I wasn't referring to any particular sweeping generalizations, as I was talking in very general terms; and my comment/s apply "only" as it pertains to my preferences and my thoughts / assumptions.

As for my recommendations....they are usually "price appropriate" and are influenced by what I think sounds well, taking into account the type of sound that the person asking is looking for.

 

[plastic penguin]

Cno, I trust you more than most when comes to high end hi-fi stuff. I think I've mentioned similar before. However, you are wrong to think it is a sweeping generalisation or conjecture.

I think you are reading more into my comments than was my intention.

I wasn't referring to any particular sweeping generalizations, as I was talking in very general terms; and my comment/s apply "only" as it pertains to my preferences and my thoughts / assumptions.

As for my recommendations....they are usually "price appropriate" and are influenced by what I think sounds well, taking into account the type of sound that the person asking is looking for.

You've said on a couple of occasions that you wouldn't own a A/B or D Class amp. On the flipside I've never written off the idea of owning a valve amp, but it would take a vastly better living room and a bigger house... and a hefty budget to displace the Leema.

Back to the OP: Still believe there's something intrinsically wrong or, as I posted earlier, that there's no such thing as a perfect system.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Dunno, cno, if an amp measures close to another the sound isn't going to be different. Wonder if you could really tell class a against the rest in a blind test. Even if you could the difference is probably tiny. Thats's why I can't understand why you recommend hyper expensive amps with average speakers.

valves might be different, but theyre said to distort, and, anyway, who wants to wait hours before the bloody things come on song, not to mention swapping valves as they wear out. Shame no-one was game to try the Harbeth challenge which might have sorted things out.

 

[margetti]

no it doesn't, only if you think you *have* to be on one side or the other.

I've spent a lot of time in studios, gigging, recording, soundmixing etc so have been lucky enough to listen to all types of music, and all types of presentations of music. Doesn't mean that I still can't appreciate a) the music itself removed from the production or b) the production removed from the music.

It's my choice if I decide to listen to the production values of the music, or the music itself. What I was saying that if I think music is good, I can enjoy it regardless of the production values/equipment it's played back on/sound mixing etc. However that also doesn't meant that I also can't enjoy a well produced bit of music on some nice kit.

I know that for some people, they chose not to enjoy music which they feel has inferior production values or played back on inferior equipment, as has already been said in this thread. That's up to them, but it's not how it is for me.

Hope that helps clarify things.

Very well put - sums up my own attitude to the debate perfectly!

As an additional comment, I have on many occassion followed those "what's your best produced cd" type of thread, and through those threads alone I have discovered a lot of music I never would have otherwise. Everything from Norah Jones to Dream Theater, from Eric Bibb to Porcupine Tree... none of these I would now be listening to on a regular basis if it weren't for that initial focus on "production over music"...

 

[CnoEvil]

You've said on a couple of occasions that you wouldn't own a A/B or D Class amp.

I'm not at all sure I have.....My AVR600 is far from shabby for 2 channel.

There are some AB amps I would consider owning, and recently I have said that I would consider a Linn Amp (Class D) and Kef R Series speakers.

What I have said, is I generally prefer Class A the most, and Class D the least (which is not quite the same thing)......but I always try keep an open mind and continue to listen to new stuff whenever I get the chance.

I also like the sound of Matt's Devialet with SF, but I'm unlikely to get to hear it.

 

[matt49]

Dunno, cno, if an amp measures close to another the sound isn't going to be different. Wonder if you could really tell class a against the rest in a blind test. Even if you could the difference is probably tiny. Thats's why I can't understand why you recommend hyper expensive amps with average speakers.

valves might be different, but theyre said to distort, and, anyway, who wants to wait hours before the bloody things come on song, not to mention swapping valves as they wear out. Shame no-one was game to try the Harbeth challenge which might have sorted things out.

Interestingly, Mr Shaw has changed his tune. He now thinks amps do make a difference. His current view is that amp clipping is "endemic" (his word).

Matt

 

[CnoEvil]

Dunno, cno, if an amp measures close to another the sound isn't going to be different. Wonder if you could really tell class a against the rest in a blind test. Even if you could the difference is probably tiny. Thats's why I can't understand why you recommend hyper expensive amps with average speakers.

I would generally advise spending as much, or slightly more on an amp than on speakers.

There are occasions, where the person asking has found speakers they really like and have wondered how they would sound with an amp costing a lot more. If (imo) the speakers have considerable potential, I will advise that it is not unreasonable, but to try it for themselves.

I have heard how a more expensive amp can totally transform cheaper speakers, hence my viewpoint. I am quite happy for others to disagree, but I tend to go with what I've heard.

BTW. What do you call "hyper expensive"?

 

[MakkaPakka]

I have heard how a more expensive amp can totally transform cheaper speakers, hence my viewpoint. I am quite happy for others to disagree, but I tend to go with what I've heard.

Agree. My new amp sounds very different to my old amp. This is not because of something I would put into waffly-audiophile terms (suggesting there is a difference in tonality) but it is very obvious it has a better grip on the speakers. When listening to very agressive music the cheap amp became one dimensional and individual details were lost. With the more costly amp all the details are still there when the music 'explodes' into a loud passage.

I am no amplifier boffin but I believe this is down to the better 'stiffer' power supply in the more costly amp which reacts better to the sudden demands.The cheaper amp couldn't keep up and either clipped or just fell short and distorted in some manner. Both amps had the same 40wpc rating.

 

[matthewpiano]

What is your new amp MakkaPakka?

 

[Covenanter]

Dunno, cno, if an amp measures close to another the sound isn't going to be different. Wonder if you could really tell class a against the rest in a blind test. Even if you could the difference is probably tiny. Thats's why I can't understand why you recommend hyper expensive amps with average speakers.

valves might be different, but theyre said to distort, and, anyway, who wants to wait hours before the bloody things come on song, not to mention swapping valves as they wear out. Shame no-one was game to try the Harbeth challenge which might have sorted things out.

Back in the days (early 1970s) when I was doing research we did lots of experiments to see if people could hear the difference between Class A and Class B amplifiers (everybody in the lab had built their own amplifier). Putting everything else to one side it turned out that some people were particularly good at hearing the type of disortion that can arise from Class B. Of course amplifier design has improved a lot since then and the distortion will be a lot lower BUT I wouldn't be surprised if some people could hear it.

Chris

 

[manicm]

By purchasing 'recorded' it means buying a CD or an equivalent download i.e. no MP3s etc. As to the actual recording I don't really care. To me the recording is what it is - down to the producer or engineer or any ****hole involved. It's the music that must grab me. I first heard Florence + The Machine on the radio. I liked it. I bought the CD. Is there compression? Probably. A bit too loud? Probably. Do I give a toss? Get a life.

It's then up to my hifi to get the most out of it.

 

[Electro]

I have just had a look on youtube to find a video of iceman's system in action and I clicked on this particular one .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2qANPLS81c

In fact it sounded so good that I checked out what the music was an bought it because it grabbed me where good music does and I just wanted it

In fact the whole Cd is superb !

Stew Cutler – Insignia

Could this the musical power of a top class reavealing HiFi system playing what is obviously a very good recording even when it is played back on youtube via little computer speakers ?