Forum poll - How important is accurate music reproduction to you?

[Infiniteloop]

3 going on 4.

How do you reconcile your answer with the use of a turntable?

Not too sure what that's meant to mean. Some of the best uncompressed classical recordings I have are on vinyl, my system plays them just nicely thank you.

I also have them on SACD and high res downloads.

This doesn't prevent me in considering the turntable as essential for some of my recordings.

You listen to whatever you like your way, and I will do similarly, it's a poll, not twenty questions!

I wasn't trying to be confrontational, I'm genuinely interested. I personally don't go looking for a totally accurate sound because I believe it's like chasing a rabbit down a hole. I have a Valve set-up and a Devialet set-up and very much enjoy both, so some might say that the question of accuracy doesn't mean much to me. What I look for is believability and enjoyment.

I'm interested because of things like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFxiLeQmb5k

For what it's worth I'm also considering a turntable purchase (postponed due to house move).

Forgive me, though it as a personal attack.

Amplification ultimately doesn't matter if your source is rubbish. Get this sorted and then it comes down to the recorded material itself. However, I might just be preaching to the converted here.

No worries. It's interesting though isn't it?

I auditioned some turntables earlier this year (prior to any intention of a house move) using the Devialet and it became a different animal compared to when it is fed a digital signal. I guess what I'm saying is that the Devialet was being completely transparent to the signal. Anyway, accurate or not, the combination of a TT and the Devialet made some very nice sounds indeed.

 

[Vladimir]

Beats improved and now Apple earbuds. We are running out of lo-fi examples to slander. *help*

 

[Ajani]

Beats improved and now Apple earbuds. We are running out of lo-fi examples to slander. *help*

At least there's still Bose.

 

[lpv]

Beats improved and now Apple earbuds. We are running out of lo-fi examples to slander. *help*

no at all.. customers say: iphone sound better than toblerone neil bar...

 

[Ajani]

Again, some may say 4, but when actually compared to a 2, the 2 may sound more accurate. Sounding close to the original is all in the hearing ability of the listener or how the individual wants the system to sound or both. Again, a system can use excellent dynamics & timing to portray accuracy or believability without really being accurate. On the other hand a system could be very accuracy yet not believable.

To me most of the systems out there dnt sound real, most of them sound like what the Hifi world has set as the norm as suppose to the real world. That's just my opinion.

I'm a 4 but accuracy = colors

We all like colors, instruments make colors and guitarist add even more with effects and feedbacks. The question of accuracy is rather how much colors comes across. Small reverbs and harmonics and faint tonal nuances is what accuracy should be about. The problem is everyone got stuck on frequency response and distortion. When does the amp clips when does the cone breals? Questions that are interesting for loud concert sound ingeneering but not for casual home listening. But seriously to add colors doesn't make sense, for the simple reason that colors are added by the artist already and colors are not compatible so adding colors down after the mix is very bad. I say that as a 25 years guitar player that happens to play many other instruments and have produced 8 albums. Sorry if that sound pretentious it's just that many ask how can we possibly know how an album was intended to sound and the obvious answer is make one!

OK fair enough. But if you record your own album and when you play it back it sounds bad, how do you determine whether the bad sound is as a result of your HiFi equipment or due to the quality of the recording being bad? You could en up changing your speakers when the real problem was the Microphone.

 

[pyrrhon]

Again, some may say 4, but when actually compared to a 2, the 2 may sound more accurate. Sounding close to the original is all in the hearing ability of the listener or how the individual wants the system to sound or both. Again, a system can use excellent dynamics & timing to portray accuracy or believability without really being accurate. On the other hand a system could be very accuracy yet not believable.

To me most of the systems out there dnt sound real, most of them sound like what the Hifi world has set as the norm as suppose to the real world. That's just my opinion.

I wrote a few answers and deleted to focus on the essential. I simply believe that we are at an immature state of science where we want to measure everything and dismiss what we cant. Like a man trading his wife for a 36-24-36 statue so to speak. Hifi measure well but often sound dry.

 

[pyrrhon]

it's just that many ask how can we possibly know how an album was intended to sound and the obvious answer is make one![/b]

OK fair enough. But if you record your own album and when you play it back it sounds bad, how do you determine whether the bad sound is as a result of your HiFi equipment or due to the quality of the recording being bad? You could en up changing your speakers when the real problem was the Microphone.

When I replay my acoustic guitar track and it sounds like my real guitar then I assume microphone and speaker are ok. But if I have a bright room with a dark speaker I could be misled. But I use room calibration and check afterward on 2 headphone sets. I got sony mdr 7506 because it's a reference for studio work to do the final adjustments. My story is that I have some albums that sounded good on every setup then one day around 2012 I decided to play an album I made but didn't play for like 10 years. In the meantime I had got my first hifi a nad 275 and 165bee with spendor s6e. Decent enough system and I was struck how some parts of the songs where better but the main articulation and tensions and emotions were not there. I had also noticed that from a lot of music I used to like. That my hifi made me dislike.

I kept the s6e but now have studio 148 and I like to switch from time to time. What I can say is while the s6e gives more low bass punch and instrument separation the 148 give much more of those subtle things like reverbs and sustained notes. I also believe harmonics pass better too because I get more emotions. But it's hard too explain at that level it's something I feel when I struck a chord that I feel again or not through the speaker. But I can detect some speakers that don't express these harmonics enough. Ls50 was an exemple. You probably can guess with that exemple why hifi upset me a little because the most praised speaker sounds dead to me.

 

[Vladimir]

Beats improved and now Apple earbuds. We are running out of lo-fi examples to slander. *help*

At least there's still Bose.

Bose car audio sounds pretty damn good. Older Bose gear and their desktop gadgets all sound fine. Only real poo they made were those Acoustimas sets.

 

[chebby]

What is it with you and Steely Dan?

The last time I heard them played at a hifi demonstration, they were a contributory factor (along with incessant Phil Collins, Level 42 and Dire Straits) in my decision - at the age of 20 - to never, ever attend a hi-fi show ever again. (I've kept that promise to myself.)

 

[Vladimir]

What is it with you and Steely Dan?

The last time I heard them played at a hifi demonstration, they were a contributory factor (along with incessant Phil Collins, Level 42 and Dire Straits) in my decision - at the age of 20 - to never, ever attend a hi-fi show ever again. (I've kept that promise to myself.)

Replace Steely Dan with Dire Straits, Norah Jones and Diana Krall if it helps. It's to illustrate a point.

 

[Vladimir]

I don't understand why so many people can't grasp a simple concept such as determining accuracy. I don't need to know how the original recording sounded in the studio. All I need to do is use test tones and bits of audio recordings I made and play them through the equipment I'm testing. If it reproduces it accurately, it will reproduce everything accurately. Simples.

Also one of the biggest misconceptions among audiophiles is not understanding the difference between music production and reproduction. Production is a one time artistic event. Every sound of the instruments, every room mode, noisy floor boards, all effects added by the producer, all of it is music production. High Fidelity is about music reproduction. Accurate portray of the recorded art. Any deviation means less original art consumed and more a variation of it. I don't mind when people introduce their own sound preferences in music reproduction intentionally, but at least be aware what you are doing.

My system is not more accurate because it excited and pleased me more. If a flat frequency response bores me, that means my choice of music bores me, not the equipment. If I don't want to adapt and look for new music, and I want to listen to Steely Dan for 1000000th time and still feel excited by it, I'll need new kit with a different sound. Accurate kit sounds similar and is thus boring, which is why I'd like vinyl where I change carts or valve amp where I change bulbs to get different euphonic sound so I can listen to Steely Dan again. I'm not saying all vinyl spinners and valve glowers do this, I can keep changing SS amps, CDPs and wire to keep listening Steely Dan again. But at least there is real audible change with valves* and vinyl.

*As I understand in valve amps the biggest coloration is from the output transformers, so valves in preamp may not make a big difference but people say the tubes themselves add different sound.

 

[chebby]

You could keep up your excitement for Steely Dan by always buying them on new/different formats (LP, 'hi-res' downloads etc.)

Saves you the additional expense of changing the whole system every time.

There's usually a new format or a new re-mastering just around the corner for most of the 'hi-fi demo stalwarts'. (Like that Sheffield Drum Labs that you linked to somewhere.)

 

[Vladimir]

Music lovers do that. They buy different masterings and can't wait to hear them on their 12 years old Sony mini systems.

Audiophiles have a different approach.

 

[Jota180]

You can't know that the music you've bought is being reproduced by your system accurately. You don't know what that particular piano/guitar/drum kit sounded like when recorded and produced. By the time it got to production it could have sounded different to when it was played by the musician. If you use a different speaker to the one used in the studio you must be off to a loser straight away surely if your goal is sounding as close to what the producer/artist produced.

There's also the fact that all speakers colour the music uniquely to some degree there must be a level of inaccuracy built in.

 

[Infiniteloop]

I don't understand why so many people can't grasp a simple concept such as determining accuracy. I don't need to know how the original recording sounded in the studio. All I need to do is use test tones and bits of audio recordings I made and play them through the equipment I'm testing. If it reproduces it accurately, it will reproduce everything accurately. Simples.

Also one of the biggest misconceptions among audiophiles is not understanding the difference between music production and reproduction. Production is a one time artistic event. Every sound of the instruments, every room mode, noisy floor boards, all effects added by the producer, all of it is music production. High Fidelity is about music reproduction. Accurate portray of the recorded art. Any deviation means less original art consumed and more a variation of it. I don't mind when people introduce their own sound preferences in music reproduction intentionally, but at least be aware what you are doing.

My system is not more accurate because it excited and pleased me more. If a flat frequency response bores me, that means my choice of music bores me, not the equipment. If I don't want to adapt and look for new music, and I want to listen to Steely Dan for 1000000th time and still feel excited by it, I'll need new kit with a different sound. Accurate kit sounds similar and is thus boring, which is why I'd like vinyl where I change carts or valve amp where I change bulbs to get different euphonic sound so I can listen to Steely Dan again. I'm not saying all vinyl spinners and valve glowers do this, I can keep changing SS amps, CDPs and wire to keep listening Steely Dan again. But at least there is real audible change with valves* and vinyl.

*As I understand in valve amps the biggest coloration is from the output transformers, so valves in preamp may not make a big difference but people say the tubes themselves add different sound.

I find that the PreAmp tubes make the biggest change in SQ. Output valves seem to affect the sound less.

The great thing is that there are many variations on the same tube type. e.g. The 12AU7's I use have a whole raft of alternatives I can play with: http://www.audiotubes.com/12au7.htm

These are all mainly still plentiful and can be had cheaply on FleaBay.

 

[Infiniteloop]

What is it with you and Steely Dan?

The last time I heard them played at a hifi demonstration, they were a contributory factor (along with incessant Phil Collins, Level 42 and Dire Straits) in my decision - at the age of 20 - to never, ever attend a hi-fi show ever again. (I've kept that promise to myself.)

The Dan are immortal and not to be lumped in with Level 42, Phil Collins and Dire Straits. 'Aja' is one of the best Albums ever made. - Have another listen. Your now more experienced ears may be surprised.*smile*

 

[davedotco]

Far more fun to be had with a band doing the rounds, bars and clubs, called 'Stealing Dan and Don', a bunch of session players and other pro musicians who play the music of Steely Dan and Donald Fagin for fun.

Typically 9 to 13 people on stage, I doubt they cover their petrol money most nights and they are fun, plenty of scope for interaction and little solos, some different arrangements of well known tunes and some less obvious stuff too.

*good*

 

[Infiniteloop]

Far more fun to be had with a band doing the rounds, bars and clubs, called 'Stealing Dan and Don', a bunch of session players and other pro musicians who play the music of Steely Dan and Donald Fagin for fun.

Typically 9 to 13 people on stage, I doubt they cover their petrol money most nights and they are fun, plenty of scope for interaction and little solos, some different arrangements of well known tunes and some less obvious stuff too.

*good*

Sounds interesting. - I'll look out for them.

 

[Native_bon]

I don't understand why so many people can't grasp a simple concept such as determining accuracy. I don't need to know how the original recording sounded in the studio. All I need to do is use test tones and bits of audio recordings I made and play them through the equipment I'm testing. If it reproduces it accurately, it will reproduce everything accurately. Simples.

Also one of the biggest misconceptions among audiophiles is not understanding the difference between music production and reproduction. Production is a one time artistic event. Every sound of the instruments, every room mode, noisy floor boards, all effects added by the producer, all of it is music production. High Fidelity is about music reproduction. Accurate portray of the recorded art. Any deviation means less original art consumed and more a variation of it. I don't mind when people introduce their own sound preferences in music reproduction intentionally, but at least be aware what you are doing.

My system is not more accurate because it excited and pleased me more. If a flat frequency response bores me, that means my choice of music bores me, not the equipment. If I don't want to adapt and look for new music, and I want to listen to Steely Dan for 1000000th time and still feel excited by it, I'll need new kit with a different sound. Accurate kit sounds similar and is thus boring, which is why I'd like vinyl where I change carts or valve amp where I change bulbs to get different euphonic sound so I can listen to Steely Dan again. I'm not saying all vinyl spinners and valve glowers do this, I can keep changing SS amps, CDPs and wire to keep listening Steely Dan again. But at least there is real audible change with valves* and vinyl.

?

?

*As I understand in valve amps the biggest coloration is from the output transformers, so valves in preamp may not make a big difference but people say the tubes themselves add different sound.

 

I dnt think it's as simple as that. Unless you got a reference point, instrument sounds recorded can differ on the same mastering system. All boils dwn to who is doing the mastering. I have got a recording studio at home, and play stuff recorded from my studio on my hifi a lot.

This may sound strange but hifi makes the music sound better. Adds more life without any hardness to the sound. Now if I take that same recording to the studio it will sound exactly as I mastered it.

I think most people understand what production and reproduction means, just once one of the situation changes ie speakers you way of from the original sound. As for me emotion and timing in more important. If a system does not time properly then the musical message is lost.

What I have noticed in most systems the problems are mostly with speakers. A lot of speakers are just too bassy and others lacking in bass. Also control of the bass frequency. If this is missing a system will never sound believable.There is more to it, but getting the bass right is a big part of it. Having said that, may also be music type dependent.

 

[GeoffreyW]

It has to be a 4 for me, I think. I love to hear the characteristic sound of instruments, be it acoustic or electronically influenced. Composers and musicians usually go to considerable trouble achieving the sound they want, but no matter what reproduction equipment we may use, it will only be a version of the original, surely?

But, I also love the (woody?) resonances of stringed instruments, including guitars, the vibrations and harmonics of brass and woodwind, the impact and vibrations of timpani and percussion, all of which shape and form the tunes we listen to. I like to "immerse" myself in it, in a sort of emotional way, which is what the musicians playing music do.

As I get older, my hearing is deteriorating, and I can't hear frequencies above 10khz, but I can still enjoy the lower frequencies and their harmonics, and thus my music; this is important, the cost of new vinyl being what it is, and I can still hear differences between SD and HD playback.

Finally, I must say that better equipment certainly reveals more of the detail in recorded sound, which is, for me, of major importance, and I can only guess at how my vinyl and cds would sound on equipment I could buy if I had, say, another 10K to spend on a turntable, cartridge, cd player, amp, speakers and headphones.

 

[pyrrhon]

What I have noticed in most systems the problems are mostly with speakers. A lot of speakers are just too bassy and others lacking in bass. Also control of the bass frequency. If this is missing a system will never sound believable.There is more to it, but getting the bass right is a big part of it. Having said that, may also be music type dependent.

The problem you talk about I would add is in the upper bass. Because often hifi is about spec and frequency extension is taken seriously. Hifi always goes deep. But metal or grunge styles don't go much below 60 hertz. If you can I'd suggest you try a distortion pedal with wet setting at 100% on hifi.

My experiment and from memory I have a feeling it needs large woofers small throw and high sensitivity to sound better. But the amp is important too, my nad clearly sounded way more dry then vintage technics. Small Long throw woofer simply sound dry toi but can dig deeper so they are favored bymeasurement but there is no way it can convey the weight, energy and fullness of say 'angry chair' first chord stroke. I also think paper cones have a great way to expose richness but they may distort more then carbon at high volume. If you follow most of these points they are all directed toward, we made compromise to achieve best specs. We are in the blinded by numbers. One day harmonics and richness will be measured and I bet some old designs will come back to the hifi market.

 

[Native_bon]

What I have noticed in most systems the problems are mostly with speakers. A lot of speakers are just too bassy and others lacking in bass. Also control of the bass frequency. If this is missing a system will never sound believable.There is more to it, but getting the bass right is a big part of it. Having said that, may also be music type dependent.

The problem you talk about I would add is in the upper bass. Because often hifi is about spec and frequency extension is taken seriously. Hifi always goes deep. But metal or grunge styles don't go much below 60 hertz. If you can I'd suggest you try a distortion pedal with wet setting at 100% on hifi.

My experiment and from memory I have a feeling it needs large woofers small throw and high sensitivity to sound better. But the amp is important too, my nad clearly sounded way more dry then vintage technics. Small Long throw woofer simply sound dry toi but can dig deeper so they are favored bymeasurement but there is no way it can convey the weight, energy and fullness of say 'angry chair' first chord stroke. I also think paper cones have a great way to expose richness but they may distort more then carbon at high volume. If you follow most of these points they are all directed toward, we made compromise to achieve best specs. We are in the blinded by numbers. One day harmonics and richness will be measured and I bet some old designs will come back to the hifi market.

Thats the very reason I love my current speakers, harmonics & richness!! I would not say its the cleanest I have heard as per bass, but its very fast & rich. This is the area were most speakers fail. Each woofer is only 4 inches across, (4woofers per speaker) yet agile and very deep. Yes an amp able to control the speakers is also important. Also like I said before, peoples listening abilities differ.

What may be believeable to one person may differ to the next person. So we can safely say only those who have perfect hearing can tell an accurate or believeable HIFI system. In other words believable is to the listeners ears.

 

[masterblaster]

I am using Dirac Live to neutralize playback. A neutral presentation is in my experience (much) more relaxed, no listening fatigue anymore, especially with longer listening sessions.