How do you know which speakers your amp is best suited to?

[Thropplenoggin]

What does the Rotel RA-10's 2 x 40 watts mean vs Marantz PM6005 2 x 45 watts?

What speakers would match the power of amps such as these? Are there any speakers that just wouldn't work?

Often I read this in the specs of retailers: 'Recommended amp power (watts) 25 - 150 watts' (Q Acoustic Concept 40). How would this recommendation apply to the above two amps? Would they be in the sweet spot or not able to get the best out of the speakers?

Sorry if this is obvious but I'm new to all of this.

Thanks.

Throppers

 

[hoojtune73]

hello there to be honest you would never hear the difference in volume terms with the amps you suggest.

when number crunching with audio figures also take into account speaker sensitivity(the db rating) and impedence (ohms)which is the resistance to electrical current.the lower this figure the harder it will be for an amp to drive.

the best way is to go to a dealer and judge with your ears,most modern budget priced amps will drive speakers around there same price range with ease.

 

[Thropplenoggin]

Thanks for your reply, hoojtune73. So would there be no point in pairing a budget amp like the Marantz with relatively high-end speakers like the KEF LS50s? Would something like the new B&W 686 S2 or Dali Zensor 3s make more sense?

 

[hoojtune73]

no worries,not heard any of those speakers in question but the marantz shouldnt have any trouble driving them.

they say as a rule always spend a bit more on your amp than speakers but it isnt always the case.

can you find a good dealer,they are great,spend as many hours as you like listening to music of your choice until you find the gear you like

regards

matt

 

[Thompsonuxb]

You don't.

its trial and error and lots of luck - what one person may consider a good sound others may consider it not so good. You can't even tell in an audition with your amp connected in a typical demo room.

best bet is go for a design you like then play with positioning in your room.

 

[peterpiper]

KEF and Marantz have good synergy generally, but those particular KEFs need a somthing more than the PM6005 ,it will probaly sound fine but you would need to move up to the 800x range or Pearl Lite to get them singing, the Dali is good with the Marantz 600x range, apparantly, Rotel would suite the B&W according to many

 

[davedotco]

For once Thompson is right, though not for the reasons given.

This really is not a sound 'signature' thing, more an interaction issue.

For obvious reasons budget amplifiers and loudspeakers have their limitations, primarily of course due to cost. Budget amplifiers are not going to have the heavy duty, 'stiff' power supplies of more expensive amplifiers, which is a real pity as that is exactly what is needed to control the modest quality drive units and lightweight enclosures that are the norm in inexpensive loudspeakers.

The result is that in many combinations the amplifier is working much harder than you might think, having to cope with the resonances of the main driver can cause issues at the bass end and the awkward impedences that surround the crossover point can lead to the amplifier being over driven and sounding 'bright'.

These interactions are different for each amplifier/speaker combination and although trends can be observed, they are not always obvious unless you spend a lot of time with different equipment.

Modern amplifiers and speakers are so accomplished that they rarely distort in an obvious manner and they usually will go reasonably loud without distress, but the issues are there and show up in other ways. When audition combinations at this level it is exactly these interactions that are making the real differences.

This is why, at the budget end of the market I usually suggest small speakers and better amplifiers, though this is not a view shared by all. (or many for that matter)

 

[Al ears]

When are people going to give up trying to match speakers to amplifiers?

You just have to find a speaker that works well in your listening room.

 

[davedotco]

When are people going to give up trying to match speakers to amplifiers?

You just have to find a speaker that works well in your listening room.

I would suggest when they start buying better than the low budget kit that seems to be the norm on this forum.

Or put it another way, why are you not using a PM6005 to drive your Adagios, they're pretty sensitive, should work great....... :?

 

[unsleepable]

When are people going to give up trying to match speakers to amplifiers?

You just have to find a speaker that works well in your listening room.

But then you also need to find an amplifier that goes well with those speakers, no? Or how do you suggest that the amplifier should be chosen? I ask with honest interest, as I find this whole matching process a bit of a headache.

 

[plastic penguin]

What does the Rotel RA-10's 2 x 40 watts mean vs Marantz PM6005 2 x 45 watts?

What speakers would match the power of amps such as these? Are there any speakers that just wouldn't work?

Often I read this in the specs of retailers: 'Recommended amp power (watts) 25 - 150 watts' (Q Acoustic Concept 40). How would this recommendation apply to the above two amps? Would they be in the sweet spot or not able to get the best out of the speakers?

Sorry if this is obvious but I'm new to all of this.

Thanks.

Throppers

I usually go by a few pointers, and questions you need to ask yourself:

1) What volumes will you be listening to?

2) Choose a speaker that suits your room size. So if you have a small box room it's best to avoid large floostanders, and if your room is large a mini monitor probably won't fill the room and give you a 3D sound.

3) What overall sound do you need to achieve? For instance, does a warm, smooth, neutral or bright sound appeal most?

4) What source do you have? So if you have, let's say, a Marantz CDP then listen to its sibling amp. They are designed to work together - aesthetically and sonically - and (most) share the same remote.

5) Room acoustics: If you have lots of soft furnishings, like sofas, heavy-duty curtains, thick carpets then you may find a warm set-up too warm and soupy. Likewise if you have a bright set-up in a refelctive room: This could influence any residual forwardness in the treble, and make for a long-term listening issues.

However, amp matching with speakers isn't an exact science. The best judge on whether a combo works or not is your ears.

 

[davedotco]

The whole amplifier/speaker/room matching issue is a complex one and difficult to understand, particularly by those new to the hobby.

People talk about room acoustics a lot, but in my view that is a much lesser proplem than the one that plagues most modern systems of the type regularly discussed on here.

There is a widespread belief that modern budget hi-fi is very good and that spending more money only brings modest improvements, I disagree totally. Budget amplifiers lack real world power and more importantly lack the ability to control the speakers, they are then used to drive inexpensive speakers with cheap drive units that are, shall we say, a bit 'unruly'.

Compound that with the popularity of floorstanders, ie cheap drivers in big, lightly built enclosures often poorly placed in rooms that are too small for them and it is hardly surprising that so many systems sound so awful. No point blaming the room in situations like this, it is simply poor equipment, lousy system building or, quite likely, both.

 

[plastic penguin]

Budget stuff is better now than 10 years ago. But regardless of whether it's budget, midrange, mid/high end or silly money, the room is key. No, I'm not saying a bad set-up will make it sound great if the room is correct...

I know, quite recently (last year), that when our carpets were lifted and curtains taken down it was audibly different.

Budget amps will drive speakers to decent levels as long as expectations aren't too high: As in trying to drive low impedance/ohm speakers with a amp that doesn't exceed 50 watts. That's okay if you play at low/idle levels but if you try and replicate night club volumes, you'll come unstuck.

 

[davedotco]

Budget stuff is better now than 10 years ago. But regardless of whether it's budget, midrange, mid/high end or silly money, the room is key. No, I'm not saying a bad set-up will make it sound great if the room is correct...

I know, quite recently (last year), that when our carpets were lifted and curtains taken down it was audibly different.

Budget amps will drive speakers to decent levels as long as expectations aren't too high: As in trying to drive low impedance/ohm speakers with a amp that doesn't exceed 50 watts. That's okay if you play at low/idle levels but if you try and replicate night club volumes, you'll come unstuck.

I do not agree with opening statement but that is a matter of opinion, I'm not going to argue that one.

Of course room acoustics make a difference but fortunately humans are very adaptive creatures and as long as the room is not too bad they will adjust. Obviously removing all the soft furnishings will make a difference but most normally furnished rooms will be fine, once they are 'run in'.

Poorly chosen systems are the big problem, underpowered amplifiers, unsuitable speakers and poor positioning/installation causes the real problems.

There is more required of an amplifier than driving the speakers to 'decent levels' and the modern fashion for cheap floorstanders and the lack of control that results (with cheaper amplifiers) simply 'couples' the system to the room and emphasises the room issues. Use a well specced, tight and controlled system and most of the room issues fade into insignificance.

 

[Thropplenoggin]

Lots of food for thought: thanks to all.

The speakers I'm most keen to try out are these Cambridge Aero 2, which received a glowing review in Hifi Choice. I hope WHF cover them soon, or the floorstander equivalent (Aero 6).More glowing reviews here: http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/products/aero-2-stand-mount-speaker

Apparently, they take a different approach to the design:

"Instead of a conventional tweeter, the Aero 2 uses BMR (Balanced Mode Radiator) drivers for sensational results...Left to concentrate on the bass and only the very lowest part of the mid-range, the matching 6" woofers can perform their task of providing a punchy beat with aplomb. The Aero cone woofers are specially designed to complement the BMR drivers and have similar sonic characteristics in terms of their precision and rhythm.".

It seems for the music I listen to - classical - that this could be the ideal budget speaker for me. I'm thinking of pairing it with either the Marantz PM6005 or Rotel Ra-10 and will try and listen to both.

At present, I have Dali Zensor 1s, which I love. I expect either of the aforementioned amps will get more out of them than my Denon M-38.

 

[plastic penguin]

Lots of food for thought: thanks to all.

The speakers I'm most keen to try out are these Cambridge Aero 2, which received a glowing review in Hifi Choice. I hope WHF cover them soon, or the floorstander equivalent (Aero 6).More glowing reviews here: http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/products/aero-2-stand-mount-speaker

Apparently, they take a different approach to the design:

"Instead of a conventional tweeter, the Aero 2 uses BMR (Balanced Mode Radiator) drivers for sensational results...Left to concentrate on the bass and only the very lowest part of the mid-range, the matching 6" woofers can perform their task of providing a punchy beat with aplomb. The Aero cone woofers are specially designed to complement the BMR drivers and have similar sonic characteristics in terms of their precision and rhythm.".

It seems for the music I listen to - classical - that this could be the ideal budget speaker for me. I'm thinking of pairing it with either the Marantz PM6005 or Rotel Ra-10 and will try and listen to both.

At present, I have Dali Zensor 1s, which I love. I expect either of the aforementioned amps will get more out of them than my Denon M-38.

Personally I wouldn't match Rotel amp with Cambridge speakers, although a dem will confirm if it'll be a good combo.

If you like the Dalis so much, why not upgrade to better Dali?

If a speaker states 40-150 watts and your amp is only 45 watts, that'll be okay for low volumes, but if you want to shake the walls look elsewhere for a more powerful amp or less demanding speakers.

 

[Native_bon]

Budget stuff is better now than 10 years ago. But regardless of whether it's budget, midrange, mid/high end or silly money, the room is key. No, I'm not saying a bad set-up will make it sound great if the room is correct...

I know, quite recently (last year), that when our carpets were lifted and curtains taken down it was audibly different.

Budget amps will drive speakers to decent levels as long as expectations aren't too high: As in trying to drive low impedance/ohm speakers with a amp that doesn't exceed 50 watts. That's okay if you play at low/idle levels but if you try and replicate night club volumes, you'll come unstuck.

I do not agree with opening statement but that is a matter of opinion, I'm not going to argue that one.

Of course room acoustics make a difference but fortunately humans are very adaptive creatures and as long as the room is not too bad they will adjust. Obviously removing all the soft furnishings will make a difference but most normally furnished rooms will be fine, once they are 'run in'.

Poorly chosen systems are the big problem, underpowered amplifiers, unsuitable speakers and poor positioning/installation causes the real problems.

There is more required of an amplifier than driving the speakers to 'decent levels' and the modern fashion for cheap floorstanders and the lack of control that results (with cheaper amplifiers) simply 'couples' the system to the room and emphasises the room issues. Use a well specced, tight and controlled system and most of the room issues fade into insignificance.

I wish I could take you up on your words by trying £500 speakers to a £2000 speaker & see if your theories are right.. Cause I have heard some cheap speakers sound better.

 

[davedotco]

Lots of food for thought: thanks to all.

The speakers I'm most keen to try out are these Cambridge Aero 2, which received a glowing review in Hifi Choice. I hope WHF cover them soon, or the floorstander equivalent (Aero 6).More glowing reviews here: http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/products/aero-2-stand-mount-speaker

Apparently, they take a different approach to the design:

"Instead of a conventional tweeter, the Aero 2 uses BMR (Balanced Mode Radiator) drivers for sensational results...Left to concentrate on the bass and only the very lowest part of the mid-range, the matching 6" woofers can perform their task of providing a punchy beat with aplomb. The Aero cone woofers are specially designed to complement the BMR drivers and have similar sonic characteristics in terms of their precision and rhythm.".

It seems for the music I listen to - classical - that this could be the ideal budget speaker for me. I'm thinking of pairing it with either the Marantz PM6005 or Rotel Ra-10 and will try and listen to both.

At present, I have Dali Zensor 1s, which I love. I expect either of the aforementioned amps will get more out of them than my Denon M-38.

Personally I wouldn't match Rotel amp with Cambridge speakers, although a dem will confirm if it'll be a good combo.

If you like the Dalis so much, why not upgrade to better Dali?

If a speaker states 40-150 watts and your amp is only 45 watts, that'll be okay for low volumes, but if you want to shake the walls look elsewhere for a more powerful amp or less demanding speakers.

Thropple...

I would suggest that you are falling into the same trap as most every one else. The Dali speakers are fine, what you need is some decent amplification, instead of splitting your budget just buy the best amp you can afford to drive the Dali's, you will be amazed at what they can do when driven properly.

If you can, try them with a Creek 50a, a Croft integrated or a small Exposure.

PP......

Once again, our views diverge here. It is not just volume levels that will be compromised with the lesser amplifier, the lack of quality leads to the inability of the system to 'project' into the room, the music barely gets out of the speakers and all the clarity and dynamic shading is lost, fine for background, but thats about it.

As you say elsewhere, it is about expectations, and I expect rather better from my system.

 

[Thropplenoggin]

Hi Dave,

Would the exposure 1010 (50 watts) be worth looking at or is it still too 'budget'?

Throppers

 

[plastic penguin]

Lots of food for thought: thanks to all.

The speakers I'm most keen to try out are these Cambridge Aero 2, which received a glowing review in Hifi Choice. I hope WHF cover them soon, or the floorstander equivalent (Aero 6).More glowing reviews here: http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/products/aero-2-stand-mount-speaker

Apparently, they take a different approach to the design:

"Instead of a conventional tweeter, the Aero 2 uses BMR (Balanced Mode Radiator) drivers for sensational results...Left to concentrate on the bass and only the very lowest part of the mid-range, the matching 6" woofers can perform their task of providing a punchy beat with aplomb. The Aero cone woofers are specially designed to complement the BMR drivers and have similar sonic characteristics in terms of their precision and rhythm.".

It seems for the music I listen to - classical - that this could be the ideal budget speaker for me. I'm thinking of pairing it with either the Marantz PM6005 or Rotel Ra-10 and will try and listen to both.

At present, I have Dali Zensor 1s, which I love. I expect either of the aforementioned amps will get more out of them than my Denon M-38.

Personally I wouldn't match Rotel amp with Cambridge speakers, although a dem will confirm if it'll be a good combo.

If you like the Dalis so much, why not upgrade to better Dali?

If a speaker states 40-150 watts and your amp is only 45 watts, that'll be okay for low volumes, but if you want to shake the walls look elsewhere for a more powerful amp or less demanding speakers.

PP......

Once again, our views diverge here. It is not just volume levels that will be compromised with the lesser amplifier, the lack of quality leads to the inability of the system to 'project' into the room, the music barely gets out of the speakers and all the clarity and dynamic shading is lost, fine for background, but thats about it.

As you say elsewhere, it is about expectations, and I expect rather better from my system.

I agree that budget amps have their limitations - in fact, all components do but...

Time to get this into context, especially for the OP's sake. Of course a better quality amp will yield a more controlled sound over a budget effort, but my A65 was absolutely fine dealing with the RS6s, up until you hit 11 o clock on the dial, and then the sound started to harden. At idle or low levels it reproduced music as good as any within a reasonable price bracket.

No point in you suggesting a Croft or a Creek. The OP has mentioned a Marantz 6005 and a Rotel RA-10 for a reason: He can't push his budget higher, unless he searches down the back of the sofa.

 

[plastic penguin]

Hi Dave,

Would the exposure 1010 (50 watts) be worth looking at or is it still too 'budget'?

Throppers

What is the max you can push your budget?

 

[Covenanter]

I have what Davedotco would call a "budget" system and yet I don't perceive the issues that he does. Ok I don't want to listen at "dance club" levels, indeed living in an apartment that isn't possible, but I do want to listen at levels that give a reasonable simulation of a concert hall. I'm often listening to solo instruments, for example lute music, and in real life this isn't very loud, in fact it is quite quiet.

My perception is that my "budget" amplifier is perfectly capable of "controlling" my "not quite so budget" speakers at all levels that I wish to listen to. I don't claim it is the ultimate hifi experience because my personal budget for hifi is limited by my budgets for other interests and I know I could get better by spending more. However my system does produce what are to me thrilling sound images of music that I love and that is enough for me.

Perhaps there is a difference between listening to classical music and for want of a better word "pop" music. Perhaps the latter demands more from equipment?

Chris

PS Having said this I might upgrade my kit shortly thanks to a windfall from Vodafone selling its US business.

PPS I auditioned several Dali Zensor speakers when choosing my kit (I can't remember the models) and I have to say that I found them uniformly grim.

 

[BigH]

The only way is to try out different components, the problem is finding a dealer that has them in stock, Richer Sounds carry some of them but are not the best for auditions IMHO. I would not bother too much about reviews they can be misleading. I would make a short list of several amps and speakers and see which you like best. You can try your speakers with amps like the Creek 50A or Arcam A19 or Rega Brio R and try the Marantz 6005 and then try speakers like the CAs and Dali Zensor 3s. Also Q Acoustics Concept 20 maybe worth trying for classical music.

Have not heard the Exposure amp but yes it would be on my list if you can find a dealer.

 

[BigH]

No point in you suggesting a Croft or a Creek. The OP has mentioned a Marantz 6005 and a Rotel RA-10 for a reason: He can't push his budget higher, unless he searches down the back of the sofa.

Well he is looking at more expensive speakers as well so no reason why he can't try those out. Who knows he may think the the Creek or Croft with Dali Zensor 3s are perfect and get a deal not much over his current budget, its about getting a system you are happy with then you can keep it longer before upgrading.

 

[matt49]

Perhaps there is a difference between listening to classical music and for want of a better word "pop" music. Perhaps the latter demands more from equipment?

I do think there's some truth in this. I think it's easier to get decent (satisfying, exciting) playback of classical music on a budget.

Classical recordings tend to have fewer 'nasties' in them: very deep, loud bass; artificially created distortion; extreme (again often artifically created) dynamics. Funnily enough, I think artificially created distortion (e.g. distortion effects with rock guitar) is very hard for hi-fi systems to reproduce well.

Matt