How do you know which speakers your amp is best suited to?

[BigH]

The main critism of the Creek is lack of bass.

And since you auditioned it, do you agree with that criticism?

I'm not keen on too much bass so its not an issue for me, to be honest I did not notice it in the audition, but with the Epos floorstanders there was too much bass for me so I don't think its an issue but for some who it maybe.

 

[BigH]

Thanks for the response!

So to clarify, do you refer to the A19 when you mention budget amplifiers with "overhanded" bass?

I am interested in the Creek with all these comments, so would like to give it a try. Living where I live, that likely means buying a unit—hopefully, pre-owned in good shape—, and selling afterwards it if it doesn't catch. The 50A is the obvious choice, but would you recommend the Evolution 2 or the Destiny better?

If you live in England, Wales or Scotland you can get a free home trial of Creek 50A for 2 weeks, if you don't like you will have to mail back to them.

 

[unsleepable]

If you live in England, Wales or Scotland you can get a free home trial of Creek 50A for 2 weeks, if you don't like you will have to mail back to them.

Currently in Germany. The access to, and tradition of Hi-Fi in the UK is unmatched in the whole world.

Anyways I have found an Evo 2, new at a good price—probably from stock clearance—, and already bought it. I have never been able to audition Creek and I am really curious about it.

I finally went for the Evo 2 because according to the German Audio magazine, it's better in the bass department than the 50A. And it's not like I want the deepest bass—I am actually happy with what my little R100 produce. But I also don't enjoy having to imagine it while I listen to music, I'd rather hear it. If anyone wants to add something in relation to how the Evo 2 compares to the 50A, this is the moment.

By the way, and going back to the Arcam A19, after comparing it with the Naim Nait XS—a much acclaimed, and not budget amplifier—I think that the A19 does not overblow anything. It simply produces a much tighter bass than the XS, at least with my speakers.

 

[lindsayt]

Hi Lindsayt - it would be very interesting to know the hifi equpment you have used over the years.

Davedotco I appreciate most of the informed comments you make on this forum. Whereabouts in leicester can you hear some valve amplification?

Cheers tonky

From memory:

LP12, Basik LVX, Rega R100 / Creek CAS 4040 / Heybrook HB1

LP12, Basik LVX, Linn K9 / Creek CAS 4040 / Heybrook HB1

LP12, Lingo 2, Ittok LVIII, K9 / Creek CAS 4040 / Heybrook HB1

LP12, Lingo 2, Ittok LVIII, Karma / EAR 834p , Creek CAS4040 / Linn Sara

LP12, Lingo 2, Ittok LVIII, Troika / EAR 834p , Affordable Valve 300b push pull / Saras

LP12, Lingo 2, Ittok LVIII, Klyde / EAR 834p , Affordable Valve 300b push pull / Isobariks

LP12, Lingo 2, Ittok LVIII, Klyde / EAR 834p , Avondale homebrew / Isobariks

LP12, Lingo 2, Ittok LVIII, Troika / EAR 834p , Avondale homebrew or Affordable Valve 300b push pull / Isobariks

EMT 930, Denon 103 / EAR 834p , Avondale homebrew / Isobariks

EMT 930, EMT TSD15 SPH / Avondale homebrew / Isobariks

EMT 930, EMT TSD15 SPH / Avondale homebrew / Isobariks

EMT 930, EMT TSD15 SPH / Ashly xr2001, Affordable Valve 300b push pull, Avondale homebrew / Bozak Symphony

EMT 930, EMT TSD15 SPH / Ashly xr2001, Coincident Frankesntein prototype, Avondale homebrew / Bozak Symphony

EMT 950, EMT TSD15 SFL / Ashly xr2001, Coincident Frankesntein prototype, Avondale homebrew / Bozak Symphony

EMT 950, EMT TSD15 SFL / Promitheus Reference, Pioneer SF-700, Coincident Frankesntein prototype, Avondale homebrew / Bozak Symphony

EMT 950, EMT TSD15 SFL / Lightspeed LDR, Pioneer SF-700, Coincident Frankesntein prototype, Avondale homebrew / Bozak Symphony

Additional A/V system:
Denon 1800 blu-ray player, Freeview PVR, Epson TW3200, 130" screen / Creek CAS4040 / EV Sentry III

Split into 2 main systems:

Upstairs system: EMT 930, EMT TSD15 SPH / Lightspeed LDR, Pioneer SF-700, Coincident Frankesntein prototype, Avondale homebrew / Bozak Symphony

Downstairs system: EMT 950 EMT TSD 15 SFL / Urei 6290 / EV Patrician 800

Downstairs system: EMT 950 EMT TSD 15 SFL or Studer A807 / Urei 6290 / EV Patrician 800

Upstairs system: EMT 930, EMT TSD15 SPH or Denon DN C640 / Lightspeed LDR, Pioneer SF-700, Coincident Frankesntein prototype, Urei 6230 / Bozak Symphony

Downstairs system: EMT 950 EMT TSD 15 SFL or Studer A807 or Denon DN C630/ Urei 6290 / EV Patrician 800

Kitchen system: Denon DN C630 / Urei 6290 or Urei 6240 / Linn Sara or Heybrook HB1 or Sansui SP 5500

 

[matthewpiano]

Hi matthewpiano

Thanks for your post.

In one thread, I saw you praising the Denon 720AE budget amp. In another, your system was listed as the Marantz CR610. What is so different with your current set-up compared to how it was before?

Also, how do you find the exposure 1010?

Thanks.

Throppers

Sorry to be a bit slow off the mark here but I've been away.

I enjoyed the Denon but I realised after nearly 12 months of using it that I was at a point where I was only really playing a relatively small handful of my music collection. It was very impressive with certain recordings but, for some reason it failed to un-pick some in any sort of meaningful or convincing way. I changed it to a Pioneer A-30, which certainly gave more detail and I enjoyed some of what it did, but again it didn't inspire me. I wasn't exploring my music collection and neither was I really rushing out to buy new music. Both these amps did much the same as most of the other amps I've had in the past, a list which has included Marantz 6003 and 6004 models, NADs, Yamaha A-S500, various Cambridge Audio models, Onkyos and several others.

I purchased the Marantz MCR610 with the intention of it getting me enthused about the music again, with the multiple boxes and system matching issues removed and with wider access to music through not only my own collection but also internet radio, Spotify etc. It did its job and if I had to part with my current system for any reason and buy something very affordable, I would go back to a '610. It is an engaging unit and very even handed across a wide range of music. I also found it seemed to control a range of speakers better than some of the budget integrateds I've had which wasn't what I expected to find at all. However, the inevitable happened quite quickly and as I got back into the music more and more I wanted to get as much as possible out of it. Previous experience with a brilliant Creek 4330R amplifier had shown me what was possible (and I still can't fathom why I didn't hang on to that gem to this day) and davedotco's posts gave me the idea that there was a different way to buy hi-fi. This led to me going to a dealer in Saddleworth who gave me excellent advice about listening to the music rather than the system and who gave me the most informative audition I've ever had with a range of equipment. This was where I became aware of how capable the Exposure 1010 is and purchased it. I also very much wanted to buy the Audio Note speakers he played me but couldn't stretch to them.

I've had the 1010 for several weeks now and I've been using it with a Roksan Kandy K2 CD player that I've had for some time but never totally got on with before, and with the Dynaudio DM2/6s (as well as my pre-existing Rega RP3). I have listened to so much music in that time and re-engaged with a lot of stuff that I'd 'fallen out' with. The major difference between this and what I had before is that I don't fiddle with the equipment any more, and I don't have any thoughts at all of making changes to it. It pulls me into the music, disappearing in a way that I never thought I would achieve on a relatively tight budget.

The question is why does it work so much better? I feel the quality of what is in the amp is so much higher and better thought out that it is able to grip the speakers (drive AND control) in a way that eludes most affordable amps. This is somewhat supported by the fact that I have previously heard Dynaudio DM2/6s with Marantz 6003, 6004 and Arcam A18 amplification and not heard anything like what they are capable of. The relationship between the Exposure amp with its good quality power delivery and control, and the stable impedance and extremely high quality drive units of the Dyns works to the point where the equipment no longer gets in the way of the music. Even when it exposes the differences in recordings (and it does, more than anything I've had before), it places that information in front of you without using it as a barrier between listener and music. It is also extremely smooth across the frequency range with none of the annoying spikes that I've experienced previously. The treble (thanks in large part to that tweeter I'm sure) is the most insightful yet smooth I have heard at reasonable money.

I am quite sure I would have to spend a great deal of money to make a worthwhile improvement. The key for me is I'm wrapped up in the music again and I actually don't feel like I need to make an improvement. For the first time in living memory I don't even have any sort of long-term plan with the hi-fi, apart from enjoying the music and exploring new music! Hope this sort of answers your question!!

 

[matthewpiano]

Oh, and the other great measure of how good it is, is that I have been away for a week and have seen 4 live bands in that time. One of them was the Oysterband, on Thursday night, and on playing their latest album at home this afternoon I didn't get any of the disappointment I usually get when listening in the days after hearing live music. For the first time in ages I am also able to come home and play recordings of piano music without being totally put on edge by how un-realistic it sounds (I work in a Piano Department).

 

[tonky]

Hi Covenanter

Looking forward to your views on the amps and speakers that you are listening to this week.

Tonky

 

[Thropplenoggin]

One follow up question for this thread: I have read elsewhere peope recommending the RA-10 amp to drive the QAcoustic 2050i speakers over the Marantz PM6005. I'm always surprised by this given the numbers cites (Rotel 40 watts, Marantz 45 watts). Indeed, sometimes the Rotel is preferred over 50 watt amps. Why is this? Is the 40 w. misleading as an indicator of the amp's 'true' power? If so, what can one rely on apart from one's ears?!

 

[davedotco]

One follow up question for this thread: I have read elsewhere peope recommending the RA-10 amp to drive the QAcoustic 2050i speakers over the Marantz PM6005. I'm always surprised by this given the numbers cites (Rotel 40 watts, Marantz 45 watts). Indeed, sometimes the Rotel is preferred over 50 watt amps. Why is this? Is the 40 w. misleading as an indicator of the amp's 'true' power? If so, what can one rely on apart from one's ears?!

Go back and read this thread from the beginning.

Pay particular attention to the bits about amplifier power supplys and the bits about the way amplifiers interact with the awkward load presented by some loudspeakers.

Then read this.

The 2050i are large relatively cheap loudspeakers. Although pretty sensitive they can sound fat and overblown with amplifiers that are unable to contol them adequately.

 

[Thropplenoggin]

Thanks, Dave. I suspected someone would say that!

I've just read a useful article on the ways amps and speakers interact in this month's Hi-Fi Choice, too.

 

[tonky]

Hi Covenanter

Did you listen to those amps you were auditioning this week. If so be great to tell us what you thought of them.

Tonky

 

[Thropplenoggin]

Like Tonky, I'm also curious.

I'd also love to know how you settled on your 'simple system' given your taste in music, as I listen mostly to classical.

Throppers

 

[Covenanter]

Hi Covenanter

Did you listen to those amps you were auditioning this week. If so be great to tell us what you thought of them.

Tonky

Hi

They didn't get the Marantz in until today and I'm laid up with a nasty cold. I've arranged the audition for Tuesday. I will do a full report.

Chris

 

[peterpiper]

One follow up question for this thread: I have read elsewhere peope recommending the RA-10 amp to drive the QAcoustic 2050i speakers over the Marantz PM6005. I'm always surprised by this given the numbers cites (Rotel 40 watts, Marantz 45 watts). Indeed, sometimes the Rotel is preferred over 50 watt amps. Why is this? Is the 40 w. misleading as an indicator of the amp's 'true' power? If so, what can one rely on apart from one's ears?!

both the Rotel and Marantz are conservative in the rating of these amps, not heard the pm6005 but the RA10 and 6004 sounded pretty powerful to me and kept refined at high but confortable listening levels, if you want nightclub sound levels in your lounge they would struggle no doubt

something else that interests me, i am no electical enginner but the rotel is only 40w but consumes 220w, the marantz is 45w but consumes 155w

then something like the exposure 1010 is 50w, yet that consumes even less. only..120w

all according to the manufauers, does this mean the rotel is just less efficent than the exposure 1010 and marantz 6005

 

[davedotco]

One follow up question for this thread: I have read elsewhere peope recommending the RA-10 amp to drive the QAcoustic 2050i speakers over the Marantz PM6005. I'm always surprised by this given the numbers cites (Rotel 40 watts, Marantz 45 watts). Indeed, sometimes the Rotel is preferred over 50 watt amps. Why is this? Is the 40 w. misleading as an indicator of the amp's 'true' power? If so, what can one rely on apart from one's ears?!

both the Rotel and Marantz are conservative in the rating of these amps, not heard the pm6005 but the RA10 and 6004 sounded pretty powerful to me and kept refined at high but confortable listening levels, if you want nightclub sound levels in your lounge they would struggle no doubt

something else that interests me, i am no electical enginner but the rotel is only 40w but consumes 220w, the marantz is 45w but consumes 155w

then something like the exposure 1010 is 50w, yet that consumes even less. only..120w

all according to the manufauers, does this mean the rotel is just less efficent than the exposure 1010 and marantz 6005

Power supply size can be a good indicator of an amplifiers capability to deliver and sustain power, but like most hi-fi specs it is rarely cut and dried.

Some products quote power consumption, some transformer size, not always directly comparable. Also some manufactureres have developed vey efficient supplies, some prefer the 'traditional' route of big capacitors but as usual in hi-fi, real, helpful information is hard to come by.

The Exposure is pitched as an entry level product of fairly limited power, this is aknowledged by the manufacturer though not in as many words.

Modern amplifiers tend to go reasonably loud, often because of the limited dynamic range of many modern recordings, rarely do they distort in an obvious way but what I find an issue is that they lack the ability to 'swell' with the music, they can sound a bit flat and lacking in energy.

In another thread, low level listening is being discussed, I find that inadequate amplifiers are poor in this respect, the classic case of the music failing to get out and free from the speakers.

 

[peterpiper]

my spelling is atrocious today, too many red wines last night

another thing is , isnt the extra circuitry in the rotel and marantz, such as tone controls and in the case of the marantz a dac, taking more from the tranformer, or has this been allowed for,

and then you have the marantz MCR610 with its claimed 60w, yet the consumption 55w :?

class D efficiency helping here?

 

[Thropplenoggin]

Hi Dave

I'm seriously considering buying a 'decent' amp e.g. Creek 50a or Exposure 1010, marrying it with the best CD player my limited budget would then allow (CA Azur 341C for £249) and using both with my Dali Zensor 1s, rather than buying new floorstanders, which would take me well over budget.

My question: if I match a solid amp like the Creek with a budget(ish) CD player, how compromised would the audio quality be? Obviously, in the long term, I'd look to upgrade the CDP, too, but can't do it all at once.

Throppers

 

[matthewpiano]

If you are going to buy a CD player as a stepping stone I'd suggest considering a 2nd hand one, specifically a Rotel RCD965BX. Very capable machine - better than the 351C. I used mine '965BX with the Exposure when the Roksan was away having a new display module and I actually would have been perfectly happy to stick with it.

 

[peterpiper]

If you are going to buy a CD player as a stepping stone I'd suggest considering a 2nd hand one, specifically a Rotel RCD965BX. Very capable machine - better than the 351C. I used mine '965BX with the Exposure when the Roksan was away having a new display module and I actually would have been perfectly happy to stick with it.

that was my first cd player, loved it in its original form, it was a full sweet sounding thing, after a few years I modified it by sticking the discrete output stage in and removing the op amps (a dealer did this for me) BIG mistake, it changed the sound , sounded brighter like a bright light shining on the performers on stage, whereas the original had a dimmer light but you could see more of the finer details

if it aint broke dont fix it apllied with that

sold it and got a marantz CD7300 which has a similar warmth about it,

 

[Thropplenoggin]

Hi, Matthew, I hadn't thought of second-hand. That could save me a fortune!

Any other recommended players of yore I should get my eye out for?

Throppers

 

[stevepg1975]

Hi, you might want to check out 2ndhandhifi.com they have a Rotel965BX (and other options) in at good price. I have used this site a few times before before with no problems at all.

 

[robg1976]

This subject always opens a can of worms....... Let start by stating the Output figures are just used often to sell products... more watts sounds Better... TRUST me it is not the case..... It comes down to other factors the speakers you are driving and the quality of the stated Watts Ie the power supply in your amp.

For example a 40w amp driving a 100w speaker with a sensitivity of 91db will probable sound better or louder than a 100w amp driving speakers that are 100w but with a 87db sensitivity.

It comes down to load. or what you are driving if you like... Lets use a car engine for example a 2.0 litre engine in a Mini will be a powerfull rocket.. (a light load) Put that engine 2.0 litre in a bus and you have a pretty slow bus....

My point is choose a quality amp. Good power supply rather than the amp with the most watts

Hope this helps

 

[Thropplenoggin]

Thanks, Robg, very helpful.

<cite>My point is choose a quality amp. Good power supply rather than the amp with the most watts</cite>

Any clues on what to look for in a 'good power supply'?

Amps I'm considering are the Exposure 1010 and others around £300-500 (Rotel RA-10 and RA-11, etc.)

Thanks.

Throppers

 

[CnoEvil]

Thanks, Robg, very helpful.

<cite>My point is choose a quality amp. Good power supply rather than the amp with the most watts</cite>

Any clues on what to look for in a 'good power supply'?

Amps I'm considering are the Exposure 1010 and others around £300-500 (Rotel RA-10 and RA-11, etc.)

Thanks.

Throppers

The sign of a good p/s, is the ability to double its power (or get reasonably close to it), as impedance halves ie. 60W @ 8 Ohms / 120W @ 4 Ohms.

 

[davedotco]

Thanks, Robg, very helpful.

<cite>My point is choose a quality amp. Good power supply rather than the amp with the most watts</cite>

Any clues on what to look for in a 'good power supply'?

Amps I'm considering are the Exposure 1010 and others around £300-500 (Rotel RA-10 and RA-11, etc.)

Thanks.

Throppers

The baby Exposure is a relatively low powered device, designed by Exposure to deal with the essentials well when included in sympathetic systems.

If you do not have a good dealer to hand, take advice from Mathewpiano, he has one and has, I believe, tried it in different systems. First hand knowledge is always most valuable.