How do you know which speakers your amp is best suited to?

[Thropplenoggin]

Hi Plastic Penguin

I should have about a grand to play with, tho' I had envisaged buying a new CD player, amp, speakers, and cables with that. The plan was to use the Denon M-30/Dali Zensor 1 set-up as a new system for another room.

At present, I play at low levels as I live in a modern terraced house with neighbours either side.

Just out of curiosity, why don't you think Rotel/Cambridge speakers are a good match? Is this because B&W are a known better pairing and that would simply make more sense?

I'm torn between budget kit and mid-range because this is an investment I want to last for several years.

I notice the exposure 1010 amp/CD player can be had in deals for around £800.

Throppers

p.s. why do my posts keep triggering the spam filter?!

 

[plastic penguin]

Hi Plastic Penguin

I should have about a grand to play with, tho' I had envisaged buying a new CD player, amp, speakers, and cables with that. The plan was to use the Denon M-30/Dali Zensor 1 set-up as a new system for another room.

At present, I play at low levels as I live in a modern terraced house with neighbours either side.

Just out of curiosity, why don't you think Rotel/Cambridge speakers are a good match? Is this because B&W are a known better pairing and that would simply make more sense?

I'm torn between budget kit and mid-range because this is an investment I want to last for several years.

I notice the exposure 1010 amp/CD player can be had in deals for around £800.

Throppers

p.s. why do my posts keep triggering the spam filter?!

IMHO, Rotel are fantastic if you like a highly detailed sound. But, unless you get the speaker match right, the sound doesn't seem to hang together as other makes (I've heard a fair number of different Rotels over the years). I've not heard Cambridge speakers but the amps are very similar to Rotel: The treble can sound quite hard IMO.

You'll need to them together, though...

 

[Broner]

p.s. why do my posts keep triggering the spam filter?!

Post your problem here: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/about-the-site/spam-filter-does-not-let-me-post and they will fix it for you.

 

[davedotco]

I have what Davedotco would call a "budget" system and yet I don't perceive the issues that he does. Ok I don't want to listen at "dance club" levels, indeed living in an apartment that isn't possible, but I do want to listen at levels that give a reasonable simulation of a concert hall. I'm often listening to solo instruments, for example lute music, and in real life this isn't very loud, in fact it is quite quiet.

My perception is that my "budget" amplifier is perfectly capable of "controlling" my "not quite so budget" speakers at all levels that I wish to listen to. I don't claim it is the ultimate hifi experience because my personal budget for hifi is limited by my budgets for other interests and I know I could get better by spending more. However my system does produce what are to me thrilling sound images of music that I love and that is enough for me.

Perhaps there is a difference between listening to classical music and for want of a better word "pop" music. Perhaps the latter demands more from equipment?

Chris

PS Having said this I might upgrade my kit shortly thanks to a windfall from Vodafone selling its US business.

PPS I auditioned several Dali Zensor speakers when choosing my kit (I can't remember the models) and I have to say that I found them uniformly grim.

Covenanter.

I have tried, and sometimes failed, to use the words "most" and "usual" a lot in my comments.

Of course an experienced user can, with care, put together an inexpensive system that works well, particularly if the musical 'taste' is fairly specific. Tuning a system to do this is an art in itself.

My admittedly limited experience of the Kefs suggest that they need careful positioning and a bit of space, this is even more important with music that relies on rhthyms and a bit of bass for it's effect. My general experience of speakers of this type is that they fall down in their ability to deliver music with a bit of punch and presence, probably not an issue for you but it will be for others.

Solo instruments, I listen to a fair amount of piano and voice, bring their own set of issues, even at quite reasonable levels I find most amplifiers in the budget class can not even begin to handle the speed and dynamic range of this instrument, distortion may not be obvious but the lack of presence is, to me anyway.

Much "Pop" music will tax the bass control and turning it up a bit could put a strain on the amplifier power supply, as due to the lack of dynamic range in the recording the amplifier will be called upon to provide high average outputs over a sustained period. There will always be examples of systems that work well, very well, for the price but for 'most' music, 'most' of the time this is not the 'norm'.

 

[Covenanter]

I have what Davedotco would call a "budget" system and yet I don't perceive the issues that he does. Ok I don't want to listen at "dance club" levels, indeed living in an apartment that isn't possible, but I do want to listen at levels that give a reasonable simulation of a concert hall. I'm often listening to solo instruments, for example lute music, and in real life this isn't very loud, in fact it is quite quiet.

My perception is that my "budget" amplifier is perfectly capable of "controlling" my "not quite so budget" speakers at all levels that I wish to listen to. I don't claim it is the ultimate hifi experience because my personal budget for hifi is limited by my budgets for other interests and I know I could get better by spending more. However my system does produce what are to me thrilling sound images of music that I love and that is enough for me.

Perhaps there is a difference between listening to classical music and for want of a better word "pop" music. Perhaps the latter demands more from equipment?

Chris

PS Having said this I might upgrade my kit shortly thanks to a windfall from Vodafone selling its US business.

PPS I auditioned several Dali Zensor speakers when choosing my kit (I can't remember the models) and I have to say that I found them uniformly grim.

Covenanter.

I have tried, and sometimes failed, to use the words "most" and "usual" a lot in my comments.

Of course an experienced user can, with care, put together an inexpensive system that works well, particularly if the musical 'taste' is fairly specific. Tuning a system to do this is an art in itself.

My admittedly limited experience of the Kefs suggest that they need careful positioning and a bit of space, this is even more important with music that relies on rhthyms and a bit of bass for it's effect. My general experience of speakers of this type is that they fall down in their ability to deliver music with a bit of punch and presence, probably not an issue for you but it will be for others.

Solo instruments, I listen to a fair amount of piano and voice, bring their own set of issues, even at quite reasonable levels I find most amplifiers in the budget class can not even begin to handle the speed and dynamic range of this instrument, distortion may not be obvious but the lack of presence is, to me anyway.

Much "Pop" music will tax the bass control and turning it up a bit could put a strain on the amplifier power supply, as due to the lack of dynamic range in the recording the amplifier will be called upon to provide high average outputs over a sustained period. There will always be examples of systems that work well, very well, for the price but for 'most' music, 'most' of the time this is not the 'norm'.

I don't disagree with this but I would emphasise the point that you make that with careful auditioning you can put together a system on a budget to suit particular tastes.

I also listen to a lot of voice and piano, for example I am currently listening to all the Schubert Goethe Lieder, and I find my system very satisfactory in this genre with a full and present piano sound. (I found listening to this music on cheaper speakers almost unbearable.) The Kefs do need very careful positioning, I spent the best part of a day moving them about until I was happy, and I am lucky in having a largish room so that they can "breathe". You may well be correct about their ability to handle "pop", I've not tested this.

Chris

 

[Cypher]

There is a widespread belief that modern budget hi-fi is very good and that spending more money only brings modest improvements, I disagree totally.

I disagree with you. I've always had budget amps and I think they are very good for the money.

Tried a Marantz pearl lite amp............the PM6004 which I had at the time sounded almost as good. So not worth the money.

The Roksan K2 was a dissapointment. Never had the feefling it had more power than my budget amp and couldn't live with the sound.

So I'm not gonna try a more expensive amp again soon.

BTW, have you heard the Marantz PM6005 and/or Pioneer A-30 amps ? I think they are more capable than you think.

 

[Native_bon]

I have what Davedotco would call a "budget" system and yet I don't perceive the issues that he does. Ok I don't want to listen at "dance club" levels, indeed living in an apartment that isn't possible, but I do want to listen at levels that give a reasonable simulation of a concert hall. I'm often listening to solo instruments, for example lute music, and in real life this isn't very loud, in fact it is quite quiet.

My perception is that my "budget" amplifier is perfectly capable of "controlling" my "not quite so budget" speakers at all levels that I wish to listen to. I don't claim it is the ultimate hifi experience because my personal budget for hifi is limited by my budgets for other interests and I know I could get better by spending more. However my system does produce what are to me thrilling sound images of music that I love and that is enough for me.

Perhaps there is a difference between listening to classical music and for want of a better word "pop" music. Perhaps the latter demands more from equipment?

Chris

PS Having said this I might upgrade my kit shortly thanks to a windfall from Vodafone selling its US business.

PPS I auditioned several Dali Zensor speakers when choosing my kit (I can't remember the models) and I have to say that I found them uniformly grim.

Covenanter.

I have tried, and sometimes failed, to use the words "most" and "usual" a lot in my comments.

Of course an experienced user can, with care, put together an inexpensive system that works well, particularly if the musical 'taste' is fairly specific. Tuning a system to do this is an art in itself.

My admittedly limited experience of the Kefs suggest that they need careful positioning and a bit of space, this is even more important with music that relies on rhthyms and a bit of bass for it's effect. My general experience of speakers of this type is that they fall down in their ability to deliver music with a bit of punch and presence, probably not an issue for you but it will be for others.

Solo instruments, I listen to a fair amount of piano and voice, bring their own set of issues, even at quite reasonable levels I find most amplifiers in the budget class can not even begin to handle the speed and dynamic range of this instrument, distortion may not be obvious but the lack of presence is, to me anyway.

Much "Pop" music will tax the bass control and turning it up a bit could put a strain on the amplifier power supply, as due to the lack of dynamic range in the recording the amplifier will be called upon to provide high average outputs over a sustained period. There will always be examples of systems that work well, very well, for the price but for 'most' music, 'most' of the time this is not the 'norm'.

So could you give a price piont were you think a system will perform up to your standard..?

 

[davedotco]

I have what Davedotco would call a "budget" system and yet I don't perceive the issues that he does. Ok I don't want to listen at "dance club" levels, indeed living in an apartment that isn't possible, but I do want to listen at levels that give a reasonable simulation of a concert hall. I'm often listening to solo instruments, for example lute music, and in real life this isn't very loud, in fact it is quite quiet.

My perception is that my "budget" amplifier is perfectly capable of "controlling" my "not quite so budget" speakers at all levels that I wish to listen to. I don't claim it is the ultimate hifi experience because my personal budget for hifi is limited by my budgets for other interests and I know I could get better by spending more. However my system does produce what are to me thrilling sound images of music that I love and that is enough for me.

Perhaps there is a difference between listening to classical music and for want of a better word "pop" music. Perhaps the latter demands more from equipment?

Chris

PS Having said this I might upgrade my kit shortly thanks to a windfall from Vodafone selling its US business.

PPS I auditioned several Dali Zensor speakers when choosing my kit (I can't remember the models) and I have to say that I found them uniformly grim.

Covenanter.

I have tried, and sometimes failed, to use the words "most" and "usual" a lot in my comments.

Of course an experienced user can, with care, put together an inexpensive system that works well, particularly if the musical 'taste' is fairly specific. Tuning a system to do this is an art in itself.

My admittedly limited experience of the Kefs suggest that they need careful positioning and a bit of space, this is even more important with music that relies on rhthyms and a bit of bass for it's effect. My general experience of speakers of this type is that they fall down in their ability to deliver music with a bit of punch and presence, probably not an issue for you but it will be for others.

Solo instruments, I listen to a fair amount of piano and voice, bring their own set of issues, even at quite reasonable levels I find most amplifiers in the budget class can not even begin to handle the speed and dynamic range of this instrument, distortion may not be obvious but the lack of presence is, to me anyway.

Much "Pop" music will tax the bass control and turning it up a bit could put a strain on the amplifier power supply, as due to the lack of dynamic range in the recording the amplifier will be called upon to provide high average outputs over a sustained period. There will always be examples of systems that work well, very well, for the price but for 'most' music, 'most' of the time this is not the 'norm'.

I don't disagree with this but I would emphasise the point that you make that with careful auditioning you can put together a system on a budget to suit particular tastes.

I also listen to a lot of voice and piano, for example I am currently listening to all the Schubert Goethe Lieder, and I find my system very satisfactory in this genre with a full and present piano sound. (I found listening to this music on cheaper speakers almost unbearable.) The Kefs do need very careful positioning, I spent the best part of a day moving them about until I was happy, and I am lucky in having a largish room so that they can "breathe". You may well be correct about their ability to handle "pop", I've not tested this.

Chris

Then we are clearly on the same wavelength.

Piano accompaniment is a little easier than solo piano, either classical or jazz, but you are right, Lieder can be very difficult to get right, though it is not so much a power issue.

Again, you have space for your speakers and do not tax them too heavily with 'bass driven' music so I am sure you system will work fine though a collection of lieder and lute pieces may not be exactly the norm on this forum.....

When giving guidance it is important to take the OP's taste into account though I feel it would be poor advice, generally speaking, to suggest systems that will only sound good on one genre.

 

[Thropplenoggin]

Covenanter,

how does your set-up cope with heavier symphonic works (Bruckner), opera (Wagner) and denser choral writing (Bach, Beethoven, etc.)?

Throppers

 

[plastic penguin]

I have what Davedotco would call a "budget" system and yet I don't perceive the issues that he does. Ok I don't want to listen at "dance club" levels, indeed living in an apartment that isn't possible, but I do want to listen at levels that give a reasonable simulation of a concert hall. I'm often listening to solo instruments, for example lute music, and in real life this isn't very loud, in fact it is quite quiet.

My perception is that my "budget" amplifier is perfectly capable of "controlling" my "not quite so budget" speakers at all levels that I wish to listen to. I don't claim it is the ultimate hifi experience because my personal budget for hifi is limited by my budgets for other interests and I know I could get better by spending more. However my system does produce what are to me thrilling sound images of music that I love and that is enough for me.

Perhaps there is a difference between listening to classical music and for want of a better word "pop" music. Perhaps the latter demands more from equipment?

Chris

PS Having said this I might upgrade my kit shortly thanks to a windfall from Vodafone selling its US business.

PPS I auditioned several Dali Zensor speakers when choosing my kit (I can't remember the models) and I have to say that I found them uniformly grim.

Covenanter.

I have tried, and sometimes failed, to use the words "most" and "usual" a lot in my comments.

Of course an experienced user can, with care, put together an inexpensive system that works well, particularly if the musical 'taste' is fairly specific. Tuning a system to do this is an art in itself.

My admittedly limited experience of the Kefs suggest that they need careful positioning and a bit of space, this is even more important with music that relies on rhthyms and a bit of bass for it's effect. My general experience of speakers of this type is that they fall down in their ability to deliver music with a bit of punch and presence, probably not an issue for you but it will be for others.

Solo instruments, I listen to a fair amount of piano and voice, bring their own set of issues, even at quite reasonable levels I find most amplifiers in the budget class can not even begin to handle the speed and dynamic range of this instrument, distortion may not be obvious but the lack of presence is, to me anyway.

Much "Pop" music will tax the bass control and turning it up a bit could put a strain on the amplifier power supply, as due to the lack of dynamic range in the recording the amplifier will be called upon to provide high average outputs over a sustained period. There will always be examples of systems that work well, very well, for the price but for 'most' music, 'most' of the time this is not the 'norm'.

So could you give a price piont were you think a system will perform up to your standard..?

Given the Op has said his max is around £1000 for amp, source and speakers, Dave was suggesting Croft and Creek amps.

 

[Covenanter]

Covenanter,

how does your set-up cope with heavier symphonic works (Bruckner), opera (Wagner) and denser choral writing (Bach, Beethoven, etc.)?

Throppers

Hi

It works great with concertos, symphonies, etc (I've just put on my favourite old Bruckner 4th with Bohm and the Vienna Phil and it sounds great). I can't comment on Wagner because I hate Wagner (sorry!) but it is great with opera in general (I listen to a lot of Donizetti, Bellini and Puccini). It is excellent in Bach choral works but I can't comment on Beethoven choral as I don't listen to that often (it's a gap in my taste). I do listen to a lot of early polyphony and it is brilliant with that.

I hope that is useful.

Chris

 

[Thropplenoggin]

That's very helpful, Chris. Thank you.

Throppers

 

[davedotco]

That's very helpful, Chris. Thank you.

Throppers

Agreed, very interesting indeed.

How do you get on with the 'scale' of a big orchestra.

I alwayd have a problem with this issue with all but the biggest systems, how do you find it?

 

[davedotco]

I have what Davedotco would call a "budget" system and yet I don't perceive the issues that he does. Ok I don't want to listen at "dance club" levels, indeed living in an apartment that isn't possible, but I do want to listen at levels that give a reasonable simulation of a concert hall. I'm often listening to solo instruments, for example lute music, and in real life this isn't very loud, in fact it is quite quiet.

My perception is that my "budget" amplifier is perfectly capable of "controlling" my "not quite so budget" speakers at all levels that I wish to listen to. I don't claim it is the ultimate hifi experience because my personal budget for hifi is limited by my budgets for other interests and I know I could get better by spending more. However my system does produce what are to me thrilling sound images of music that I love and that is enough for me.

Perhaps there is a difference between listening to classical music and for want of a better word "pop" music. Perhaps the latter demands more from equipment?

Chris

PS Having said this I might upgrade my kit shortly thanks to a windfall from Vodafone selling its US business.

PPS I auditioned several Dali Zensor speakers when choosing my kit (I can't remember the models) and I have to say that I found them uniformly grim.

Covenanter.

I have tried, and sometimes failed, to use the words "most" and "usual" a lot in my comments.

Of course an experienced user can, with care, put together an inexpensive system that works well, particularly if the musical 'taste' is fairly specific. Tuning a system to do this is an art in itself.

My admittedly limited experience of the Kefs suggest that they need careful positioning and a bit of space, this is even more important with music that relies on rhthyms and a bit of bass for it's effect. My general experience of speakers of this type is that they fall down in their ability to deliver music with a bit of punch and presence, probably not an issue for you but it will be for others.

Solo instruments, I listen to a fair amount of piano and voice, bring their own set of issues, even at quite reasonable levels I find most amplifiers in the budget class can not even begin to handle the speed and dynamic range of this instrument, distortion may not be obvious but the lack of presence is, to me anyway.

Much "Pop" music will tax the bass control and turning it up a bit could put a strain on the amplifier power supply, as due to the lack of dynamic range in the recording the amplifier will be called upon to provide high average outputs over a sustained period. There will always be examples of systems that work well, very well, for the price but for 'most' music, 'most' of the time this is not the 'norm'.

So could you give a price piont were you think a system will perform up to your standard..?

Given the Op has said his max is around £1000 for amp, source and speakers, Dave was suggesting Croft and Creek amps.

To be fair when I made that suggestion I thought the OP was going to buy amp and speakers, my thought was to spend the money on the amp and keep the speakers. However it appears he has different plans.

Given where he is at, and given his budget, my choice would be as follows.

I would get down to Richers and buy a pair of £40 Diamonds for my all in one.

Then I would take a punt (as I have only heard the bigger models) on the new Exposure 1010 series CD player and amplifier. I stress I am going on hearsay here so do not take this as an unqualified recomendation, but the 2010 components that I have heard have been outstanding.

 

[peterpiper]

There is a widespread belief that modern budget hi-fi is very good and that spending more money only brings modest improvements, I disagree totally.

I disagree with you. I've always had budget amps and I think they are very good for the money.

Tried a Marantz pearl lite amp............the PM6004 which I had at the time sounded almost as good. So not worth the money.

The Roksan K2 was a dissapointment. Never had the feefling it had more power than my budget amp and couldn't live with the sound.

So I'm not gonna try a more expensive amp again soon.

BTW, have you heard the Marantz PM6005 and/or Pioneer A-30 amps ? I think they are more capable than you think.

and I agree with you , davedotco has many valid points, but he is not always right , I too have a'budget'amp,in the form of the Yamaha AS500 with a decent 80w of solid power, the speakers on the end of this are some acoustic energy AE109, classed as budget in their day, but i will tell you there are no speakers below £800 that i have personally heard that sound better than these, and no they are not lightweight flimsy build, they weigh a hefty 21 klio each are pre sand filled and feel like they are made of solid concete, and they relish the 'budjet' AS500 sounding tight agile deep , the speakers almost dissapear into a huge stoundstage when the wick is turned up, but we at this end of the market and I qoute...'.dont know what good sound is' :dance:

 

[matthewpiano]

I have only achieved real satisfaction by buying equipment which focuses on getting the fundamentals right. The combination of very high quality drive units and an amp which has a good power supply and can control the Dyns with ease, has put the music firmly back at the centre of my listening. My experience is that davedotco is absolutely right in what he says and I'm not sure I would have got to this point without his contributions to this forum.

 

[marou]

Crikey - have you guys all been to the same "How to conduct yourself on a HiFi Forum" class? Exemplary postings - concise, civil and relevant. I learned something which isn't always the case. Thanks

 

[Thropplenoggin]

Hi matthewpiano

Thanks for your post.

In one thread, I saw you praising the Denon 720AE budget amp. In another, your system was listed as the Marantz CR610. What is so different with your current set-up compared to how it was before?

Also, how do you find the exposure 1010?

Thanks.

Throppers

 

[davedotco]

Crikey - have you guys all been to the same "How to conduct yourself on a HiFi Forum" class? Exemplary postings - concise, civil and relevant. I learned something which isn't always the case. Thanks

I'm still a bit 'chilled' from my holibobs, give it another week and I would be taking Peter Piper to task for any number of reasons.......

 

[peterpiper]

Crikey - have you guys all been to the same "How to conduct yourself on a HiFi Forum" class? Exemplary postings - concise, civil and relevant. I learned something which isn't always the case. Thanks

I'm still a bit 'chilled' from my holibobs, give it another week and I would be taking Peter Piper to task for any number of reasons.......

A week ! now, I say

 

[Thropplenoggin]

Davedotco,

thanks for your replies thus far. Say I dive in at the mid-price end and buy a very good amp, what CD player would you then recommend? My budget might be able to go over a thousand...and perhaps the speakers can wait.

Throppers

 

[matt49]

Covenanter,

how does your set-up cope with heavier symphonic works (Bruckner), opera (Wagner) and denser choral writing (Bach, Beethoven, etc.)?

Throppers

Hi

It works great with concertos, symphonies, etc (I've just put on my favourite old Bruckner 4th with Bohm and the Vienna Phil and it sounds great). I can't comment on Wagner because I hate Wagner (sorry!) but it is great with opera in general (I listen to a lot of Donizetti, Bellini and Puccini). It is excellent in Bach choral works but I can't comment on Beethoven choral as I don't listen to that often (it's a gap in my taste). I do listen to a lot of early polyphony and it is brilliant with that.

I hope that is useful.

Chris

IMO to reproduce the physical scale of a symphony orchestra you need one of two things. Either you need good speakers firing into a large room, or you need very tall speakers. Small or medium sized speakers in a small to medium sized room just won't do it.

The most convincing renditions of orchestras that I've heard have been through line array speakers. There's nothing quite like tall electrostatic panels for reproducing an orchestra.

Matt

 

[davedotco]

Davedotco,

thanks for your replies thus far. Say I dive in at the mid-price end and buy a very good amp, what CD player would you then recommend? My budget might be able to go over a thousand...and perhaps the speakers can wait.

Throppers

To be honest the last cd player I bought (aquired might be a better word) was around the turn of the century. I still have it but it, like the rest of my 'proper system' is in storage, so to be honest I do not have a clue.

I think the Regas and maybe the Exposures may be interesting at the more afordable end of the price spectrum but I really don't know. ( pick the pickled pepper out of that one Peter). Another option might be the entry level Creeks, the 50a is smashing but I have not heard the cd player. The 50a is still my pick for an amplifier in my sub £2k system. The Croft is better but more expensive and ultra minimalist, though whenever I hear it I think it is worth the bother.

Since packing up my music collection, my ribbons and valves I have mostly been living on Spotify through what should be my desktop system. Every time I find a bit of cash, Mrs DDC spends it, new apartment, holidays, god knows what next.

 

[matt49]

Every time I find a bit of cash, Mrs DDC spends it, new apartment, holidays, god knows what next.

Antarctica. Got to be.

 

[davedotco]

Covenanter,

how does your set-up cope with heavier symphonic works (Bruckner), opera (Wagner) and denser choral writing (Bach, Beethoven, etc.)?

Throppers

Hi

It works great with concertos, symphonies, etc (I've just put on my favourite old Bruckner 4th with Bohm and the Vienna Phil and it sounds great). I can't comment on Wagner because I hate Wagner (sorry!) but it is great with opera in general (I listen to a lot of Donizetti, Bellini and Puccini). It is excellent in Bach choral works but I can't comment on Beethoven choral as I don't listen to that often (it's a gap in my taste). I do listen to a lot of early polyphony and it is brilliant with that.

I hope that is useful.

Chris

IMO to reproduce the physical scale of a symphony orchestra you need one of two things. Either you need good speakers firing into a large room, or you need very tall speakers. Small or medium sized speakers in a small to medium sized room just won't do it.

The most convincing renditions of orchestras that I've heard have been through line array speakers. There's nothing quite like tall electrostatic panels for reproducing an orchestra.

Matt

I agree about the room but I am not too sure about the panels. My CLS11 were about 5 ft high and though they excelled with anything up to the size of a chamber orchestra they could really not handle symphonic scale.

The new hybrids might be better but I cound never manage to integrate a subwoofer with any degree of sarisfaction. Maybe it is me.