How close do the two sides actually get?

[Native_bon]

Speakers 4 and everything else 3.

If you check the specs of the speakers to make sure they are a suitable load for the amp/size for the room, you are a 3. If you just connect them up and go with what you hear, you're a 4. ie. Any sneaky peaks into a spec sheet/checking of measurements, puts you into 3 territory.

Okay. 3 across the board for me then.

That said I am building a new system at the moment (see my new chapter thread) based entirely upon technical specs vs cost!

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/new-chapter

The problem with this is measurments can vary from system to system, or exact same model.

 

[Gazzip]

Speakers 4 and everything else 3.

If you check the specs of the speakers to make sure they are a suitable load for the amp/size for the room, you are a 3. If you just connect them up and go with what you hear, you're a 4. ie. Any sneaky peaks into a spec sheet/checking of measurements, puts you into 3 territory.

Okay. 3 across the board for me then.

That said I am building a new system at the moment (see my new chapter thread) based entirely upon technical specs vs cost!

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/new-chapter

The problem with this is measurments can vary from system to system.

Agreed. My new system is an attempt to recreate my reference system at the lowest possible cost, hence buying spec against cost. Some of the gear is so "budget" that I wouldn't be able to demo it if I wanted to. An experiment that could go catastrophically wrong but worth a try!

 

[CnoEvil]

The DAC/pre would be selected totally by measurements and functions alone but with the cravat that I would also AB them against other 'known' DAC/pre's to check the the measurements aren't lies.

The speakers (I'd buy DM10's) would be bought based purely on my current experience with my DM5 speakers and other peoples descriptions but they would only stay and replace the DM5's if I like the way they sound irrespective of what any measurements say.

Good luck putting a number on that.

Still 2.5.

 

[steve_1979]

The DAC/pre would be selected totally by measurements and functions alone but with the cravat that I would also AB them against other 'known' DAC/pre's to check the the measurements aren't lies.

The speakers (I'd buy DM10's) would be bought based purely on my current experience with my DM5 speakers and other peoples descriptions but they would only stay and replace the DM5's if I like the way they sound irrespective of what any measurements say.

Good luck putting a number on that.

Still 2.5.

2.5 it is then.

 

[steve_1979]

You are becoming too specific.

If you were selecting an entire system (from scratch), to what extent would you rely on your senses and to what extent would you be swayed by measurements?

The DAC/pre would be selected totally by measurements and functions alone but with the cravat that I would also AB them against other 'known' DAC/pre's to check that the measurements aren't lies.

The speakers (I'd buy DM10's) would be bought based purely on my current experience with my DM5 speakers and other peoples descriptions but they would only stay and replace the DM5's if I like the way they sound irrespective of what any measurements say.

Good luck putting a number on that.

 

[CnoEvil]

The DAC/pre would be selected totally by measurements and functions alone but with the cravat that I would also AB them against other 'known' DAC/pre's to check the the measurements aren't lies.

The speakers (I'd buy DM10's) would be bought based purely on my current experience with my DM5 speakers and other peoples descriptions but they would only stay and replace the DM5's if I like the way they sound irrespective of what any measurements say.

Good luck putting a number on that.

Still 2.5.

2.5 it is then.

You see, even after all that arguing over the years, we're only half a point apart. *unknw*

 

[steve_1979]

The DAC/pre would be selected totally by measurements and functions alone but with the cravat that I would also AB them against other 'known' DAC/pre's to check the the measurements aren't lies.

The speakers (I'd buy DM10's) would be bought based purely on my current experience with my DM5 speakers and other peoples descriptions but they would only stay and replace the DM5's if I like the way they sound irrespective of what any measurements say.

Good luck putting a number on that.

Still 2.5.

2.5 it is then.

You see, even after all that arguing over the years, we're only half a point apart. *unknw*

But my 0.5 is righter than yours. *blum3*

 

[bigboss]

Hmmm....dunno.

I demoed Monitor Audio Silver with Yamaha AV receiver. Because I wanted to go for in-wall and in-ceiling speakers, I bought the series which was closest to the Silver range. I was set on the Yamaha RX-A2040, but then was advised to consider Marantz SR7009 as it could so 7.1.4. Never had a chance to demo it, so bought it blind with the agreement of a swap to Yamaha if I didn't like the sound. But it exceeded my expectations.

Chose the Oppo because of build quality, manufacturer reputation and the guarantee of playing VCDs.

Never demoed the KK subwoofer. I bought it based on manufacturer reputation and reading many reviews.

 

[ID.]

Depends on what I'm buying. Ideally I'd make my final decision based on an audition.

I bought my headphone amp/preamp/DAC without hearing it, so function plays a role.

With amps, now there are certain things I look at to get a general idea.

Starting from scratch I'd be happy to buy a DAC/pre and match it with some genelecs without an audition.

Currently considering a Luxman amp but perhaps the most important measurement is whether it will physically fit.

 

[lindsayt]

I am a 1.

There are only 3 specs I look at:

Price when new.

Weight.

Price now.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

4

Bought my current speakers based on the performance of their budget sibblings - the mission 731 which I bought blind I was really impressed with them - Bought some Sony 176e . WHF review was good and trusted them bought blind. Fine speakers.

The 782se was not demoed - liked the look and they had solid reviews plus the performance of the 731. A very Good speaker, never mentioned their fault in any reviews which I found out about after a couple of years. Fortunately got the replacement drivers free with free fitting from Superfi - no problems since.

Amp bought for surround sound - a group test winner in WHF turned out to be excellent for stereo were it stayed.

Cdplayer bought for recording - bought totally blind, turned out to be a stunner.

Interconnects bought out of curiosity just to compare with standard cables - was so impressed with the upgrade tried others with disposable income.

My system achieved mainly through luck.

Although my HT was bought using reviews, look and rep.

Yamaha ra-1020 and KEF 1005.1 it works really well too.

The KEF were actually bought to work with the ax-620. Which never happened. But when compared it was not has good with the KEFs as the 1020. Although the ax-620 is Mich much better at stereo.

Bought an ra-1520 - demoed, read reviews compared with price comparible amps ticked all the boxes but never came up to snuff within my system against the ax-620.

My nephew bought it and loves it - sounds nice in his set.

So 4

 

[richard38]

I look at components used and as few as possibilities as necessary, i'd rather see good connectors then on an power-amp a useless dac connection. Rather old stock, then new, since the amount of speakers coming on the market( cheaper and cheaper) win prices, which is technically for that price impossible to make good drivers and sturdy build speakers. And i'm getting tired of the dacs, since i have perfect dacs on my studio and dj-gear . But the competition forces brands to use normal components, since they can afford to put chinese stuff in new gear. But cambridge with the new c-serie, uses the same circuit as in the a -serie , since they still use a wolfson, which for a long time has the words: not recommended for new prododucts ; Which just means they stop producing it and that's why i need to see the components. Easy for them, not honoust to the buyer.

Reviews from this site, i don't take serious.1

 

[drummerman]

There is hardly a straightforward answer to a straightforward question ... surprise (and we can behave like kids in a playground scrap on occasions), which kind of makes me think we would make great polititians

Happy weekend to all x

 

[fr0g]

Weirdly maybe, 4.

Without a doubt.

I consider myself more of an objectivist. But in the end, if I do demo something and it sounds good to me, then that is enough.

The only reason I became an objectivist in these debates is because of quite clearly nonsense claims from the subjectivist camp (not to mention the utter uselessness of reviews, WHF being a prime example of the BS propagation league.)

Now I wasn't expecting that.

The acid test of this is Valves and TTs.....would you avoid them out principal?

No.

But I like convenience. I also have a "thing" about interuptions in music. I consider a "click" an interuption. I've heard an amazing TT system with expenive pre/power and a tricked out Linn sondeck, and it sounded great...Until the record popped and I shuddered.

Valves... If someone gave me a valve amp and it sounded good, I'd use it. Otherwise it isn't something I would search out.

Well, into catagory 4 you go (for the moment). *biggrin*

If you see my reply in the other thread...Tone controls are a feature like inbuilt DAC or having a certain number of inputs. It would be something I would want included. And as I said, the point is moot, as if I was back in the market for an amp, I'd get an AV receiver. (As an aside, I was listening to the Dali system yesterday, and I had the presets set to Hall. It sounded better with the album I was listening to. I sometimes have it set to 5.1 too depending on mood )

SO, I would get a list of the features I want, compile a list, then check a few out in the shop. If it sounded good then I'd buy it. The measurements wouldn't even come into it.

 

[matt49]

SO, I would get a list of the features I want, compile a list, then check a few out in the shop. If it sounded good then I'd buy it. The measurements wouldn't even come into it.

... which just goes to show that two people might buy without considering measurements, but do so for completely different reasons, one because subjective fitness trumps measurements, the other because if the kit's designed to competent (objective) standards, it'll sound transparent. In other words, the numbering scheme might conceal big philosophical differences. Maybe that was the point ... *scratch_one-s_head*

 

[CnoEvil]

Hmmm....dunno.

I demoed Monitor Audio Silver with Yamaha AV receiver. Because I wanted to go for in-wall and in-ceiling speakers, I bought the series which was closest to the Silver range. I was set on the Yamaha RX-A2040, but then was advised to consider Marantz SR7009 as it could so 7.1.4. Never had a chance to demo it, so bought it blind with the agreement of a swap to Yamaha if I didn't like the sound. But it exceeded my expectations.

Chose the Oppo because of build quality, manufacturer reputation and the guarantee of playing VCDs.

Never demoed the KK subwoofer. I bought it based on manufacturer reputation and reading many reviews.

That puts you around a 2.5. You would have demoed the Marantz if you could and would have returned it if you didn't like it.

 

[CnoEvil]

Depends on what I'm buying. Ideally I'd make my final decision based on an audition.

I bought my headphone amp/preamp/DAC without hearing it, so function plays a role.

With amps, now there are certain things I look at to get a general idea.

Starting from scratch I'd be happy to buy a DAC/pre and match it with some genelecs without an audition.

Currently considering a Luxman amp but perhaps the most important measurement is whether it will physically fit.

I think you are a 3, but fighting it a bit.

Luxman..Mmmm.

 

[CnoEvil]

I am a 1.

There are only 3 specs I look at:

Price when new.

Weight.

Price now.

Another surprise.

I thought there would have been a subjective element to your choices.....though is it simply that you can't get to listen to the equipment you buy?

Remember, if you are a 1, you don't need to hear something to know that you will like it, as the specs/measurements tell you everything about how it will sound. Playing the percentage and selling on if you don't like it, does not count as a 1.

 

[CnoEvil]

4

Bought my current speakers based on the performance of their budget sibblings - the mission 731 which I bought blind I was really impressed with them - Bought some Sony 176e . WHF review was good and trusted them bought blind. Fine speakers.

The 782se was not demoed - liked the look and they had solid reviews plus the performance of the 731. A very Good speaker, never mentioned their fault in any reviews which I found out about after a couple of years. Fortunately got the replacement drivers free with free fitting from Superfi - no problems since.

Amp bought for surround sound - a group test winner in WHF turned out to be excellent for stereo were it stayed.

Cdplayer bought for recording - bought totally blind, turned out to be a stunner.

Interconnects bought out of curiosity just to compare with standard cables - was so impressed with the upgrade tried others with disposable income.

My system achieved mainly through luck.

Although my HT was bought using reviews, look and rep.

Yamaha ra-1020 and KEF 1005.1 it works really well too.

The KEF were actually bought to work with the ax-620. Which never happened. But when compared it was not has good with the KEFs as the 1020. Although the ax-620 is Mich much better at stereo.

Bought an ra-1520 - demoed, read reviews compared with price comparible amps ticked all the boxes but never came up to snuff within my system against the ax-620.

My nephew bought it and loves it - sounds nice in his set.

So 4

In order to be a 4, everything has to be bought through a demo and selected based on what you hear...with specs never looked at.

You are in the same vicarious catagory as NJB ie. you buy based on reviews and feedback....which means you don't fit neatly into one of my numbers, as you don't use demos or measurements.

 

[CnoEvil]

I look at components used and as few as possibilities as necessary, i'd rather see good connectors then on an power-amp a useless dac connection. Rather old stock, then new, since the amount of speakers coming on the market( cheaper and cheaper) win prices, which is technically for that price impossible to make good drivers and sturdy build speakers. And i'm getting tired of the dacs, since i have perfect dacs on my studio and dj-gear . But the competition forces brands to use normal components, since they can afford to put chinese stuff in new gear. But cambridge with the new c-serie, uses the same circuit as in the a -serie , since they still use a wolfson, which for a long time has the words: not recommended for new prododucts ; Which just means they stop producing it and that's why i need to see the components. Easy for them, not honoust to the buyer.

Reviews from this site, i don't take serious.1

If you were heading out today to spend £2k on a Hi-Fi system, would you buy one on specs alone, or would you listen and select on what you hear, ignoring the specs?

 

[FennerMachine]

I buy based on demo's but I will check the specs of equipment to make sure it has all the features I want first. I would rather have a nice sounding 40w amp than a 200w bruiser that sounds harsh.

For speakers, I go by reviews and reputation to narrow the field then demo to make sure I like them.

I have bought amps and speakers blind but with the idea I can sell them on.

I suppose I'm a 3, maybe a 2.5

 

[CnoEvil]

... which just goes to show that two people might buy without considering measurements, but do so for completely different reasons, one because subjective fitness trumps measurements, the other because if the kit's designed to competent (objective) standards, it'll sound transparent. In other words, the numbering scheme might conceal big philosophical differences. Maybe that was the point ... *scratch_one-s_head*

You are not far away.

The point of the thread was to show that when you remove points of contention eg. the condiments of the Hifi world, which are the least important part, but generate the most friction...there is a lot of common ground. We may all look for something slightly different in a system, but most of us, given the big picture, use subjective judgements to make the big decisions. The rest is just so much white noise.

 

[CnoEvil]

It's 3 for me , but I also check out the history and general philosophy of the company and the founding personel.

I also try and work out what the main motivation was for starting the buisness , such as whether the company was purely profit driven or founded on a desire to build a piece of equipment that performs and sounds better.

I then read as much specification and information and that I can about their products then let my instinct sift all through the many thousands of little pieces of information and after a period of time an answer will pop into my head *smile* .

In fact this is how I do almost everything and it works extremely well for me with a very high success rate *smile* .

I think you might be a 2.5.

 

[Covenanter]

I'm not sure you have covered all the options! I generally speaking would only buy things that sound good to me. I would never buy blind (or should that be deaf?). However, I don't bother to listen to stuff that can't be good. So an amplifier with a wildly erratic frequency response would not appear on my buying radar. Similarly I wouldn't now listen to a vinyl source as I know they come with bucketloads of distortion. This is because I'm interested in high fidelity reproduction of music and not "nice noise".

Speakers are the most difficult area because a technical specification of a speaker is not remotely clear cut. Moreover they interact with the environment. So buying a speaker on technical specification would IMO be complete madness.

Don't get me started on magazine reviews .....

Chris

 

[CnoEvil]

I'm not sure you have covered all the options! I generally speaking would only buy things that sound good to me. I would never buy blind (or should that be deaf?). However, I don't bother to listen to stuff that can't be good. So an amplifier with a wildly erratic frequency response would not appear on my buying radar. Similarly I wouldn't now listen to a vinyl source as I know they come with bucketloads of distortion. This is because I'm interested in high fidelity reproduction of music and not "nice noise".

Speakers are the most difficult area because a technical specification of a speaker is not remotely clear cut. Moreover they interact with the environment. So buying a speaker on technical specification would IMO be complete madness.

Don't get me started on magazine reviews .....

Chris

The scale goes from relying on 100% Measurements -> 100% Listening...and you can fall anywhere in between. You are a 2.75. *biggrin*