How close do the two sides actually get?

[andyjm]

The scale goes from relying on 100% Measurements -> 100% Listening...and you can fall anywhere in between. You are a 2.75. *biggrin*

Cno,

The problem with your '100% measurements' is that manufacturers rarely provide adequate measurements to allow a sensible decision to be made, and most buyers don't know how to interpret them if they did.

When you said 'measure' in your initial post, what measurements did you have in mind?

 

[matt49]

... which just goes to show that two people might buy without considering measurements, but do so for completely different reasons, one because subjective fitness trumps measurements, the other because if the kit's designed to competent (objective) standards, it'll sound transparent. In other words, the numbering scheme might conceal big philosophical differences. Maybe that was the point ... *scratch_one-s_head*

You are not far away.

The point of the thread was to show that when you remove points of contention eg. the condiments of the Hifi world, which are the least important part, but generate the most friction...there is a lot of common ground. We may all look for something slightly different in a system, but most of us, given the big picture, use subjective judgements to make the big decisions. The rest is just so much white noise.

Or one might take the other view: that where electronics are concerned, measurements are the 'white noise' and the real issue is whether differences in audible performance exist. On this (arguably more important) axis the deep disagreements remain.

In other words, you've chosen the wrong measure of whether people agree/disagree, and the effect is to create the misleading impression that we actually agree when we don't. An utterly admirable intention, of course ... *smile*

 

[CnoEvil]

Or one might take the other view: that where electronics are concerned, measurements are the 'white noise' and the real issue is whether differences in audible performance exist. On this (arguably more important) axis the deep disagreements remain.

In other words, you've chosen the wrong measure of whether people agree/disagree, and the effect is to create the misleading impression that we actually agree when we don't. An utterly admirable intention, of course ... *smile*

It's a fairly big leap from saying that you don't consider measurements when making a decision, to saying they are no more than white noise and should be put into room 101.

I think the most ardent of subjectivists would agree that specs/measurements aren't totally irrelevent...but maybe we will hear differently.

 

[matt49]

It's a fairly big leap from saying that you don't consider measurements when making a decision, to saying they are no more than white noise and should be put into room 101.

That's precisely the leap many objectivists make. It's easy these days to design electronics competently (they say), and any competently designed electronics will be audibly transparent. Therefore when making buying decisions, measurements are to all intents and purposes irrelevant. It'll sound fine, don't worry ...

In this sense, an objectivist might take superficially the same view of measurements as an extreme subjectivist, but this similarity will be misleading because it disguises the very real and deep difference between their positions, viz. are there any audible differences between competently designed electronics of broadly the same spec? (Subjectivist = yes, objectivist = no.) *bomb*

 

[Macspur]

I trust my ears.... 4 for me.

Mac

www.macsmusic.blogbubble.net

 

[CnoEvil]

It's a fairly big leap from saying that you don't consider measurements when making a decision, to saying they are no more than white noise and should be put into room 101.

That's precisely the leap many objectivists make. It's easy these days to design electronics competently (they say), and any competently designed electronics will be audibly transparent. Therefore when making buying decisions, measurements are to all intents and purposes irrelevant. It'll sound fine, don't worry ...

In this sense, an objectivist might take superficially the same view of measurements as an extreme subjectivist, but this similarity will be misleading because it disguises the very real and deep difference between their positions, viz. are there any audible differences between competently designed electronics of broadly the same spec? (Subjectivist = yes, objectivist = no.) *bomb*

Just like a scientist can over complicate my debate, by getting bogged down in technical details, so can an academic over intectualize it.

At this point, though it may be interesting, I'm am not interested in delving into the cause of people's positions, only that the position is held and what it may be.

I have been pleasantly surprised at some of the answers...sometimes it does no harm to get back to basics and realize, than in many ways, we are not so different in the things that actually matter the most..

 

[Covenanter]

I'm not sure you have covered all the options! I generally speaking would only buy things that sound good to me. I would never buy blind (or should that be deaf?). However, I don't bother to listen to stuff that can't be good. So an amplifier with a wildly erratic frequency response would not appear on my buying radar. Similarly I wouldn't now listen to a vinyl source as I know they come with bucketloads of distortion. This is because I'm interested in high fidelity reproduction of music and not "nice noise".

Speakers are the most difficult area because a technical specification of a speaker is not remotely clear cut. Moreover they interact with the environment. So buying a speaker on technical specification would IMO be complete madness.

Don't get me started on magazine reviews .....

Chris

The scale goes from relying on 100% Measurements -> 100% Listening...and you can fall anywhere in between. You are a 2.75. *biggrin*

You miss the point! You have set up a linear scale when actually it is at least two dimensional. So imagine a two dimensional graph, one axis called measurements and the other called listening and then plot the answers on there. For me, as I said, there would be different plots for speakers and for amplifiers with the speaker plot being heavier on the listening axis and amplifier plot higher on the measurement axis.

Chris

 

[Al ears]

Cno,

The problem with your '100% measurements' is that manufacturers rarely provide adequate measurements to allow a sensible decision to be made, and most buyers don't know how to interpret them if they did.

When you said 'measure' in your initial post, what measurements did you have in mind?

This thread is more about mindset and personal philosophy, when putting together a system

For the question I'm asking, it doesn't matter what measurements are available or how someone interprets them, but where their priorities lie ie. do people completely ignore measurements when buying, or do they feel they are all that's needed (if available)...and of course, everything in between.

You are thinking like a scientist (not surprisingly) and overthinking the question....it's the "principal" of relying on measurements (or not), that I'm after.

My question is this, when buying a system, how much do you rely on your ears?

In my case they are pretty much all I rely on. Now I know my amplifier measures very well indeed, I also happen to know the man that made it personally, and I know it doesn't look that pretty, but if it didn't sound any good it would not be sitting where it is now.

 

[CnoEvil]

You miss the point! You have set up a linear scale when actually it is at least two dimensional. So imagine a two dimensional graph, one axis called measurements and the other called listening and then plot the answers on there. For me, as I said, there would be different plots for speakers and for amplifiers with the speaker plot being heavier on the listening axis and amplifier plot higher on the measurement axis.

Chris

I can't miss the point, as it's my thread and I know what I'm asking. *wink*

It's fine to look at the specs/meaurements of individual components when compiling a system, but they have to be put together to make a sound....then if you chose your system by how it sounds, then you are part objective and part subjective, but the final veto is always left to your ears.

 

[CnoEvil]

I trust my ears.... 4 for me.

Mac

www.macsmusic.blogbubble.net

...and you have certainly shown how effective that can be.

 

[Covenanter]

You miss the point! You have set up a linear scale when actually it is at least two dimensional. So imagine a two dimensional graph, one axis called measurements and the other called listening and then plot the answers on there. For me, as I said, there would be different plots for speakers and for amplifiers with the speaker plot being heavier on the listening axis and amplifier plot higher on the measurement axis.

Chris

I can't miss the point, as it's my thread and I know what I'm asking. *wink*

It's fine to look at the specs/meaurements of individual components when compiling a system, but they have to be put together to make a sound....then if you chose your system by how it sounds, then you are part objective and part subjective, but the final veto is always left to your ears.

You may think you know what you are asking ...

Chris

 

[CnoEvil]

You miss the point! You have set up a linear scale when actually it is at least two dimensional. So imagine a two dimensional graph, one axis called measurements and the other called listening and then plot the answers on there. For me, as I said, there would be different plots for speakers and for amplifiers with the speaker plot being heavier on the listening axis and amplifier plot higher on the measurement axis.

Chris

I can't miss the point, as it's my thread and I know what I'm asking. *wink*

It's fine to look at the specs/meaurements of individual components when compiling a system, but they have to be put together to make a sound....then if you chose your system by how it sounds, then you are part objective and part subjective, but the final veto is always left to your ears.

You may think you know what you are asking ...

Chris

*ROFL*

You're a 2.75...now get over it! *blum3*

 

[matt49]

Just like a scientist can over complicate my debate, by getting bogged down in technical details, so can an academic over intectualize it.

At this point, though it may be interesting, I'm am not interested in delving into the cause of people's positions, only that the position is held and what it may be.

I have been pleasantly surprised at some of the answers...sometimes it does no harm to get back to basics and realize, than in many ways, we are not so different in the things that actually matter the most..

I never overintellectualize things; other people oversimplify them. *preved*

 

[CnoEvil]

Just like a scientist can over complicate my debate, by getting bogged down in technical details, so can an academic over intectualize it.

At this point, though it may be interesting, I'm am not interested in delving into the cause of people's positions, only that the position is held and what it may be.

I have been pleasantly surprised at some of the answers...sometimes it does no harm to get back to basics and realize, than in many ways, we are not so different in the things that actually matter the most..

I never overintellectualize things; other people oversimplify them. *preved*

It depends on your baseline....which I set pretty low. *dirol*

 

[drummerman]

Cno forgot another, imho important thing.

Eyes ... would you choose something that looks pig ugly but sounds or measures good?

 

[CnoEvil]

Cno forgot another, imho important thing.

Eyes ... would you choose something that looks pig ugly but sounds or measures good?

Only if I could get it past The Leader of the Opposition!.....Aesthetics are another separate can of worms and deserve their own scale.

 

[CnoEvil]

Cno,

The problem with your '100% measurements' is that manufacturers rarely provide adequate measurements to allow a sensible decision to be made, and most buyers don't know how to interpret them if they did.

When you said 'measure' in your initial post, what measurements did you have in mind?

This thread is more about mindset and personal philosophy, when putting together a system

For the question I'm asking, it doesn't matter what measurements are available or how someone interprets them, but where their priorities lie ie. do people completely ignore measurements when buying, or do they feel they are all that's needed (if available)...and of course, everything in between.

You are thinking like a scientist (not surprisingly) and overanalyzing the question....it's the "principal" of relying on measurements (or not), that I'm after.

My question is this, when buying a system, how much do you rely on your ears?

 

[fr0g]

Cno forgot another, imho important thing.

Eyes ... would you choose something that looks pig ugly but sounds or measures good?

Good point.

And in my case, not a chance. Why I wouldn't entertain anything that LindsayT recommends!

We do all have different tastes though and I do like the "industrial" look (think pro gear).

 

[Anderson]

Sorry if this isn't to your scale but I went through this whole process recently to the tune of £1500.

I shortlisted based on requirements, ie I wanted a 3 way floor stander and it had to look purdy.

Then I looked at manufacturer specs, then I looked for 3rd party measures specs. If the 3rd party results were good that kept it in my list.

Ultimately I showed the Mrs the ones I would be happy with and she picked the ones she could live with in the living room

 

[CnoEvil]

Sorry if this isn't to your scale but I went through this whole process recently to the tune of £1500.

I shortlisted based on requirements, ie I wanted a 3 way floor stander and it had to look purdy.

Then I looked at manufacturer specs, then I looked for 3rd party measures specs. If the 3rd party results were good that kept it in my list.

Ultimately I showed the Mrs the ones I would be happy with and she picked the ones she could live with in the living room

In this particular case, you are a 1.

 

[lindsayt]

I am a 1.

There are only 3 specs I look at:

Price when new.

Weight.

Price now.

Another surprise.

I thought there would have been a subjective element to your choices.....though is it simply that you can't get to listen to the equipment you buy?

Remember, if you are a 1, you don't need to hear something to know that you will like it, as the specs/measurements tell you everything about how it will sound. Playing the percentage and selling on if you don't like it, does not count as a 1.

If it cost more than 1 million yen new. If it's a source or speakers that weigh over 70 kgs, or an amp that weighs over 25 kgs. And it costs about £150 now, or is selling for £1000 less than the going rate, then it will be good enough for me to buy and enjoy a lot.

 

[CnoEvil]

I am a 1.

There are only 3 specs I look at:

Price when new.

Weight.

Price now.

Another surprise.

I thought there would have been a subjective element to your choices.....though is it simply that you can't get to listen to the equipment you buy?

Remember, if you are a 1, you don't need to hear something to know that you will like it, as the specs/measurements tell you everything about how it will sound. Playing the percentage and selling on if you don't like it, does not count as a 1.

If it cost more than 1 million yen new. If it's a source or speakers that weigh over 70 kgs, or an amp that weighs over 25 kgs. And it costs about £150 now, or is selling for £1000 less than the going rate, then it will be good enough for me to buy and enjoy a lot.

Then I think you are a 1.5.

 

[Anderson]

Sorry if this isn't to your scale but I went through this whole process recently to the tune of £1500.

I shortlisted based on requirements, ie I wanted a 3 way floor stander and it had to look purdy.

Then I looked at manufacturer specs, then I looked for 3rd party measures specs. If the 3rd party results were good that kept it in my list.

Ultimately I showed the Mrs the ones I would be happy with and she picked the ones she could live with in the living room

In this particular case, you are a 1.

I should have added I did also audition so I think that makes me a 2 .

 

[Vladimir]

Just watched Going Clear, the HBO documentary on Scientology. I had a chuckle and thought of you guys. *bye* Recommended watch.

 

[Vladimir]

I've been audited. Please sign me up for OT III.