How close do the two sides actually get?

[CnoEvil]

This thread has the potential to deteriorate, so please keep it civil and stay on topic....I really don't want to get into any specific, contentious issues

What I want to do is dig behind all the posturing (on both sides) and get to the heart of one simple area ie. what do you rely on when buying a system.....and I don't care what the system is.

The scale goes like this:

1. If it measures right, I will buy it unseen/heard.

2. I will always listen, but wouldn't buy it, if it didn't measure well.

3. I buy on what I hear, but make sure that I've also checked the specs/measurements, to avoid disaster.

4 I don't care how it measures, I will buy it if I like it.

As far as I'm concerned there isn't a right answer; but I suspect Subjectivists check measurements and Objectivists also listen (even if they take different paths). I also suspect there is more common ground than there often appears.....and as blokes and audiophiles, we just like a good argument.

So please forgive what may appear to be old ground...but it's old ground with a specific twist.

 

[rainsoothe]

3.5

 

[CnoEvil]

3.5

Well, nobody can accuse you of being unnecessarily argumentative. *biggrin*

 

[Superaintit]

3

 

[CnoEvil]

3

I suppose on my Litmus Test, 2.5 would be strictly neutral, where Measurements and Listening Preferences, would hold equal sway.

 

[Deleted member 2457]

Based on my history I would say 3. I demoed my system numerous times and always felt it sounded brilliant, I was well read in systems from WHF and HCC so and my past systems which were bought blind, but the more the money went up, the more fussy I got. I am at my limit now and I will just keep with the system I have. It would only be a downgrade from now on. I did check to see how my system measured up and spec and it just sounded perfect. So I was not worried at all. I suppose 4 as well, I bought my Pioneer all in one home cinema based on a review in WHF and then finding it cheap at Hispek. I bought my first TV blind from Empire Direct based on a WHF review too. I bought my cables blind too. *biggrin*

I suppose I am really 4 in general. My B&W MT30 was bought mainly blind and blind with the Pioneer a amp but I did read up on both and thought there shouldn't be any problem. I basically do my reaserch through WHF and then buy based upon my experiences too. That has been my history at least. I found now the systems builders in the mag useful and I would also try to buy depending upon cost. The more it costs the more I would try with specs and measurements and demos.

Now I am starting to change a bit though, I am finding myself listening to WHF forum advice more, but sometimes this works well and sometimes I buy based on demos when really I should listen to WHF instead. I suppose based on past and now I demo, listen to the forum, listen to mag advice and reviews.

*smile*

 

[Al ears]

42 - the meaning of life etc....

I would say I'm definitely in camp #4 possibly tending towards 3. Does that make me Subjective?..... possibly.

On another note just how bad does stuff have to measure before you refuse to consider it? I'm thinking more in terms of valve amps and speakers.

 

[NJB]

I don't really look at measurements, but read as many reviews as possible. Plus, I go through the forums for opinions from those who are more experienced than I am. Based on my track record, I am good at finding gear that gives an instant wow, but not the stuff that I enjoy for days, weeks or months.

So, if you replace measurements with reviews, then I am a 2.

 

[CnoEvil]

42 - the meaning of life etc....

I would say I'm definitely in camp #4 possibly tending towards 3. Does that make me Subjective?..... possibly.

On another note just how bad does stuff have to measure before you refuse to consider it? I'm thinking more in terms of valve amps and speakers.

If you check specs, simply to see if the amp can drive the speakers, or if there will be possible room problems from the speaker design, you are a 3....which is on the subjective side of neutral.

 

[Electro]

It's 3 for me , but I also check out the history and general philosophy of the company and the founding personel.

I also try and work out what the main motivation was for starting the buisness , such as whether the company was purely profit driven or founded on a desire to build a piece of equipment that performs and sounds better.

I then read as much specification and information and that I can about their products then let my instinct sift all through the many thousands of little pieces of information and after a period of time an answer will pop into my head *smile* .

In fact this is how I do almost everything and it works extremely well for me with a very high success rate *smile* .

 

[drummerman]

3

 

[Al ears]

42 - the meaning of life etc....

I would say I'm definitely in camp #4 possibly tending towards 3. Does that make me Subjective?..... possibly.

On another note just how bad does stuff have to measure before you refuse to consider it? I'm thinking more in terms of valve amps and speakers.

If you check specs, simply to see if the amp can drive the speakers, or if there will be possible room problems from the speaker design, you are a 3....which is on the subjective side of neutral.

That's what I thought but if I was looking at measurement figures for most valve amps then I'd never buy one based on this fact alone, which is clearly not a good way to look at hifi products.. What I'm trying to say is that you will probably find people do not fall completely into one category they are going to be somewhere between two of them be that 2.5 or 3.5...

 

[fr0g]

Weirdly maybe, 4.

Without a doubt.

I consider myself more of an objectivist. But in the end, if I do demo something and it sounds good to me, then that is enough.

The only reason I became an objectivist in these debates is because of quite clearly nonsense claims from the subjectivist camp (not to mention the utter uselessness of reviews, WHF being a prime example of the BS propagation league.)

 

[CnoEvil]

I don't really look at measurements, but read as many reviews as possible. Plus, I go through the forums for opinions from those who are more experienced than I am. Based on my track record, I am good at finding gear that gives an instant wow, but not the stuff that I enjoy for days, weeks or months.

So, if you replace measurements with reviews, then I am a 2.

If you are good at reading between the lines and picking the bones out of "subjective" reviews, and then buy without listening....you have created a whole different catagory. It is a sort of vicarious approach, where you learn to trust other people's ears. It could push you into either camp, depending on who you follow. Interesting.

There are a hundred and one ways to skin a cat.

 

[wilro15]

4 and nearly always blind !

 

[chebby]

Weirdly maybe, 4.

Without a doubt.

I consider myself more of an objectivist. But in the end, if I do demo something and it sounds good to me, then that is enough.

The only reason I became an objectivist in these debates is because of quite clearly nonsense claims from the subjectivist camp (not to mention the utter uselessness of reviews, WHF being a prime example of the BS propagation league.)

4 as well. I only read the specs to ensure it has all the connectivity and 'functionality' that I need. Then i'll swipe my card and demo the thing at home. If I like it i'll call the dealer to complete the transaction and email the receipt.

 

[CnoEvil]

Weirdly maybe, 4.

Without a doubt.

I consider myself more of an objectivist. But in the end, if I do demo something and it sounds good to me, then that is enough.

The only reason I became an objectivist in these debates is because of quite clearly nonsense claims from the subjectivist camp (not to mention the utter uselessness of reviews, WHF being a prime example of the BS propagation league.)

Now I wasn't expecting that.

The acid test of this is Valves and TTs.....would you avoid them out principal?

 

[TrevC]

Is there a number that covers hearing sound differences where there can't possibly be any?

 

[CnoEvil]

Is there a number that covers hearing sound differences where there can't possibly be any?

There's plenty of other threads dealing with that.

It's a simple question Trev. Which number gets closest to how you buy hifi?

 

[fr0g]

Weirdly maybe, 4.

Without a doubt.

I consider myself more of an objectivist. But in the end, if I do demo something and it sounds good to me, then that is enough.

The only reason I became an objectivist in these debates is because of quite clearly nonsense claims from the subjectivist camp (not to mention the utter uselessness of reviews, WHF being a prime example of the BS propagation league.)

Now I wasn't expecting that.

The acid test of this is Valves and TTs.....would you avoid them out principal?

No.

But I like convenience. I also have a "thing" about interuptions in music. I consider a "click" an interuption. I've heard an amazing TT system with expenive pre/power and a tricked out Linn sondeck, and it sounded great...Until the record popped and I shuddered.

Valves... If someone gave me a valve amp and it sounded good, I'd use it. Otherwise it isn't something I would search out.

 

[fr0g]

Weirdly maybe, 4.

Without a doubt.

I consider myself more of an objectivist. But in the end, if I do demo something and it sounds good to me, then that is enough.

The only reason I became an objectivist in these debates is because of quite clearly nonsense claims from the subjectivist camp (not to mention the utter uselessness of reviews, WHF being a prime example of the BS propagation league.)

4 as well. I only read the specs to ensure it has all the connectivity and 'functionality' that I need. Then i'll swipe my card and demo the thing at home. If I like it i'll call the dealer to complete the transaction and email the receipt.

Well indeed. 4, so long as it meets my needs.

A friend who knows my penchant for good sound rang me today from a Hifi store. He is not an audiophile and simply wanted a solution for his Xbox One, projector and TV for gaming and a bit of background music. He was asking me about a powered speaker he was demoing. I simply said "Does it sound good and does it have the connections you need?". The rest is irrelevant, especially reviews. Too many people go and try something, like it, look up the review...3 stars from WHF and they don't buy it, which IMO is stupid.

 

[fr0g]

Is there a number that covers hearing sound differences where there can't possibly be any?

...And this week's prize for dumbest question!

*Just to add, nothing personal. The Eggman took it so. It isn't meant that way. But seriously it's a simple topic and a simple and pretty interesting question.

 

[CnoEvil]

Weirdly maybe, 4.

Without a doubt.

I consider myself more of an objectivist. But in the end, if I do demo something and it sounds good to me, then that is enough.

The only reason I became an objectivist in these debates is because of quite clearly nonsense claims from the subjectivist camp (not to mention the utter uselessness of reviews, WHF being a prime example of the BS propagation league.)

Now I wasn't expecting that.

The acid test of this is Valves and TTs.....would you avoid them out principal?

No.

But I like convenience. I also have a "thing" about interuptions in music. I consider a "click" an interuption. I've heard an amazing TT system with expenive pre/power and a tricked out Linn sondeck, and it sounded great...Until the record popped and I shuddered.

Valves... If someone gave me a valve amp and it sounded good, I'd use it. Otherwise it isn't something I would search out.

Well, into catagory 4 you go (for the moment). *biggrin*

 

[fr0g]

Weirdly maybe, 4.

Without a doubt.

I consider myself more of an objectivist. But in the end, if I do demo something and it sounds good to me, then that is enough.

The only reason I became an objectivist in these debates is because of quite clearly nonsense claims from the subjectivist camp (not to mention the utter uselessness of reviews, WHF being a prime example of the BS propagation league.)

Now I wasn't expecting that.

The acid test of this is Valves and TTs.....would you avoid them out principal?

No.

But I like convenience. I also have a "thing" about interuptions in music. I consider a "click" an interuption. I've heard an amazing TT system with expenive pre/power and a tricked out Linn sondeck, and it sounded great...Until the record popped and I shuddered.

Valves... If someone gave me a valve amp and it sounded good, I'd use it. Otherwise it isn't something I would search out.

Well, into catagory 4 you go (for the moment). *biggrin*

Just to confuse things, I would probably check out specs before auditioning to see what I wanted to audition. But if a salesman suggested something, I'd try it. And if I liked it, the specs wouldn't matter.

 

[TrevC]

OK, 1 for everything apart from speakers and cartridges 4.