Hifi streamer vs playing from Mac into DAC

[audiokid]

Hi all,

Just trying to get some advice. If I play music from my Mac Mini (2012 via optical) into my Naim Dac using iTunes and BitPerfect, is it any different in SQ than playing through a Naim streamer, say NDX? I have a flac library and use a plug in for iTunes to play.

One argument says if the signal is bit perfect, it is the Naim DAC doing the work and should be just the same. Another argument might be in favour of the NDX doing the work, not the mac. Am I missing something here?

I really like the convenience of using the mac via screen share, storing files and also playing spotify in addition to my Flac library. Just wondering if I'm missing out on anything in terms of SQ.

 

[Overdose]

Hi all,

Just trying to get some advice. If I play music from my Mac Mini (2012 via optical) into my Naim Dac using iTunes and BitPerfect, is it any different in SQ than playing through a Naim streamer, say NDX? I have a flac library and use a plug in for iTunes to play.

One argument says if the signal is bit perfect, it is the Naim DAC doing the work and should be just the same. Another argument might be in favour of the NDX doing the work, not the mac. Am I missing something here?

I really like the convenience of using the mac via screen share, storing files and also playing spotify in addition to my Flac library. Just wondering if I'm missing out on anything in terms of SQ.

Any difference in sound will likely as not, be attributed to the analogue output stages of the respective DACs in the Naim DAC and NDX. I very much doubt that you would notice much if any difference at all, but you would be best advised to back to back test these in your own home and see for yourself.

 

[CnoEvil]

IMO At a similar price point, a well sorted Streamer sounds better. I believe the transport makes a difference, and keeping the whole thing "under control" in one box also works better......but as OD rightly advised, you have to hear this for yourself.

 

[BigColz]

Hi,

I've been in exactly the same position as you for months now.. I have been using my 2009 Mac Mini with FLACs, AIFFs and WAVs through toslink to my pre xpd qx..

If you search around you'll find othewr people with the same issue. I listened my amp in the shop through a CD player and sounded musical, crisp and beautifull.. Once i got my amp and used my Mac i thought it sounded crap as it was running in and although it improved it still doesn't sound right.. I blamed my speakers, my amp etc.. After reding a lot of information I thought it had to be my computer. I took my amp and listened to the Naim ND5 XS and it absoiultly blew me away... I tried the same streamer through, Quad pre/power and a Naim Super uniti, then also a supernait.

I found the rich, punchier aspects of the naim input through the detailed airy sparkling presentation of the Cyrus an absolute winner for me..

The technical point is that essentially PC's, Macs, Computers in general are just plain awful as a HiFi source.. Like me you probably assumed that if it comes out the computer into the amp surely that does the work? Wrong.. The computer messes up the signal with it's own reclocking and sampking when played through iTunes or any software.. I've tried programs that supposedly ''bypass'' this but it just doesn't work.. Also all the noise, interference etc that is happening inside a computer just causes a terrible signal.. I find mine sounds flat, cold, electronicly reproduced and lifeless.. The Naim streamer sounded unbelievably natural and refined and so glad i have fallen back in love with my amp speakers..

I'm not saying you have to blow £2k on a network player but you now know why it doesn't sound right.. Go try some auditions, if you have a high end DAC you could use a cheaper streamer into this which would sound a whole lot better than a computer.. I did and i am so happy (and poor) now

 

[Overdose]

The technical point is that essentially PC's, Macs, Computers in general are just plain awful as a HiFi source.. Like me you probably assumed that if it comes out the computer into the amp surely that does the work? Wrong.. The computer messes up the signal with it's own reclocking and sampking when played through iTunes or any software.. I've tried programs that supposedly ''bypass'' this but it just doesn't work.. Also all the noise, interference etc that is happening inside a computer just causes a terrible signal.. I find mine sounds flat, cold, electronicly reproduced and lifeless.. The Naim streamer sounded unbelievably natural and refined and so glad i have fallen back in love with my amp speakers..

The above is largely uninformed nonsense.

 

[cheeseboy]

The technical point is that essentially PC's, Macs, Computers in general are just plain awful as a HiFi source.. Like me you probably assumed that if it comes out the computer into the amp surely that does the work? Wrong.. The computer messes up the signal with it's own reclocking and sampking when played through iTunes or any software.. I've tried programs that supposedly ''bypass'' this but it just doesn't work.. Also all the noise, interference etc that is happening inside a computer just causes a terrible signal.. I find mine sounds flat, cold, electronicly reproduced and lifeless.. The Naim streamer sounded unbelievably natural and refined and so glad i have fallen back in love with my amp speakers..

The above is largely uninformed nonsense.

Agreed.

 

[audiokid]

Some interesting views there.

So, if I narrowed down my question slightly and compared the following setup, which one would sound the best. I'm going to demo by the way, just interested to hear people's views of whether I would be wasting my time.

1- Mac Mini (Low jitter 2012 one) with optical to - Naim DAC > Hiline > Naim Supernait > Speakers

vs

2- Storage drive > Naim NDX > Supernait > Speakers

vs

3- Storage drive > Superuniti > Speakers

 

[cheeseboy]

Some interesting views there.

So, if I narrowed down my question slightly and compared the following setup, which one would sound the best. I'm going to demo by the way, just interested to hear people's views of whether I would be wasting my time.

1- Mac Mini (Low jitter 2012 one) with optical to - Naim DAC > Hiline > Naim Supernait > Speakers

vs

2- Storage drive > Naim NDX > Supernait > Speakers

vs

3- Storage drive > Superuniti > Speakers

Well for what it's worth, I wouldn't have said demoing would be a waste of time, far from it. Personally I think the biggest waste of time (not meant offensively btw) would be asking people which sounded best. Go and demo it and see which one you think sounds best and go with that - horses for courses and everybodies ears are different Either way, hope one of the above combination floats your boat

 

[Overdose]

Some interesting views there.

So, if I narrowed down my question slightly and compared the following setup, which one would sound the best. I'm going to demo by the way, just interested to hear people's views of whether I would be wasting my time.

1- Mac Mini (Low jitter 2012 one) with optical to - Naim DAC > Hiline > Naim Supernait > Speakers

vs

2- Storage drive > Naim NDX > Supernait > Speakers

vs

3- Storage drive > Superuniti > Speakers

Some points..

I have no idea what any of the systems would sound like, having never heard them, however, before spending big bucks, you might like to do some meaningful comparisons with the Squeezebox Touch and maybe the StreamMagic 6,with some of the Naim kit, also Cno has a penchant for the Linn Sneaky. Worth a try.

Jitter? Forget about it, it's pretty much a non issue. A 2012 Mac mini would have no audible difference over a 2011 where jitter is concerned. I certainly have no issues with my 2009 Mac mini and again, it does not differ from my Macbook, or in fact any of the i devices in my house.

If you want Naim for a variety of reasons, that's perfectly fine, but don't think that a streamer or DAC has to be silly money to be able to perform excellently.

Out of your three choices, I'd go for the Superuniti option due to it's low box count (if I had to).

 

[busb]

The technical point is that essentially PC's, Macs, Computers in general are just plain awful as a HiFi source.. Like me you probably assumed that if it comes out the computer into the amp surely that does the work? Wrong.. The computer messes up the signal with it's own reclocking and sampking when played through iTunes or any software.. I've tried programs that supposedly ''bypass'' this but it just doesn't work.. Also all the noise, interference etc that is happening inside a computer just causes a terrible signal.. I find mine sounds flat, cold, electronicly reproduced and lifeless.. The Naim streamer sounded unbelievably natural and refined and so glad i have fallen back in love with my amp speakers..

The above is largely uninformed nonsense.

+1

What many fail to realise is that most streamers are running embedded Windows anyway! People have 2 choices: pay an audio manufacturer money for what's essentually a PC in a nice HiFi rack-friendly box that's got all the right drivers sorted for audio streaming or buy a dedicated PC (or just use an existing one) for far less money but requires knowledge to sort out what's needed for it to work well. Either method can stream bit-perfect data to an external DAC.

Not everyone has the time to sort out their own PC or the expertise & if a one-box solution only requires power & speakers being connected, this route can be very atractive. Those who say dedicated streamers are always better are talking tosh.

 

[MajorFubar]

Maybe someone could explain to me in 'like I'm stupid' terms why a particular CD, played though your favourite choice of DAC, amp and speakers, will sound different depending on whether the DAC is fed from a dedicated streamer or from a PC/Mac running 'bit perfect' software like Bit Perfect or J-River (etc).

 

[cheeseboy]

Maybe someone could explain to me in 'like I'm stupid' terms why a particular CD, played though your favourite choice of DAC, amp and speakers, will sound different depending on whether the DAC is fed from a dedicated streamer or from a PC/Mac running 'bit perfect' software like Bit Perfect or J-River (etc).

which streamer? Only reason I ask (and I don't know the answer) is there a way to check if the streamer is sending out the signal bit perfect? It might be on explanation why you would hear a difference.

 

[relocated]

Audiokid,

What gear do you already own and use? Because if you are looking at a big spend there are probably better ways of seperating you from your cash.

 

[BigColz]

Take your mac to a shop and try it vs a streamer.. Or get a home audition of a ND5 XS or NDX..

A lot of the points i put are from research from other people, i only know that iTunes etc has it's own reclocking etc when it is played through that software and in turn affects the sound of the music.. All i know is the ND5 XS with the n-stream app sounds fantastic and is an awesome user friendly way to enjoy music.

 

[busb]

MajorF, there seem to be these possibilities:

1 There's something going on that science can't explain despite understanding nearly every aspect of audio engineering.

2 One isn't "bitperfect"

3 One hasn't got the magic audio dust-fairy's blessing

4 You have imagined a difference where none exists

 

[MajorFubar]

Busb: well I know which option I think it is

Take your mac to a shop and try it vs a streamer.. Or get a home audition of a ND5 XS or NDX..

A lot of the points i put are from research from other people, i only know that iTunes etc has it's own reclocking etc when it is played through that software and in turn affects the sound of the music.. All i know is the ND5 XS with the n-stream app sounds fantastic and is an awesome user friendly way to enjoy music.

The fact you like your ND5 XS is excellent, but I think your comments re computer-based hosting are a case of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. Which is why, a couple of posts above, I asked someone with more knowledge than me to clarify why a streamer's sound (or more accurately, it's digital output) will be superior (ie more accurate) to that from a computer running 'hifi' audio software or add-ons like Bit Perfect.

 

[BigColz]

Fair enough, i'm saying it's the fact that the software effects the sound.. I don't know much about bit perfect but i assume it sends the digital information to a DAC without any changing in clocking, eq etc.. I tried pure music which is supposed to do that but i found it still sounded false and electronic and unnatural.. Although it undoubtedly sounded different. You can get a free 15 day free trial..

Maybe you can get perfect sound from a Mac/PC all i know is when i heard the streamer i didn't care anymore.. Be interesting to see if you do though. I just assumed that the way Naim build there stuff so intricatly it would have to make some kind of difference, so i took the plunge.. Maybe I have just payed £1900 for a media centre and DAC with software and drivers but christ it sounds good

Here's a review of some different PC and Mac setups on High end stuff.. I'l try and find some other bits i was looking through before.. http://www.hifi-advice.com/Computeraudio-part-4-fileformats-revisited-mac-pc.html

 

[BigColz]

Some interesting views there.

So, if I narrowed down my question slightly and compared the following setup, which one would sound the best. I'm going to demo by the way, just interested to hear people's views of whether I would be wasting my time.

1- Mac Mini (Low jitter 2012 one) with optical to - Naim DAC > Hiline > Naim Supernait > Speakers

vs

2- Storage drive > Naim NDX > Supernait > Speakers

vs

3- Storage drive > Superuniti > Speakers

I found the Superuniti sounded better than Supernait + ND5 XS.. Didn't try with Naim DAC.. If you can budget it the streaming module in the NDX is better than ND5 XS and with Naim DAC (and passibly powerpack) either would be a pretty ultimate source..

 

[MajorFubar]

Maybe I have just payed £1900 for a media centre and DAC with software and drivers but christ it sounds good

If you're using the DAC in your Naim then yes, that would fully explain why it sounds different to a Mac playing through your amp. Presumably when you tried the computer, you at least used the DAC in your Cyrus Pre XPd QX to give it a fighting chance. Even so, I'm hazarding a bet that the DAC in the Naim sounds better than the one in the Cyrus seeing that the unit costs about £500 more, so that's hardly a level playing field.

 

[audiokid]

Audiokid,

What gear do you already own and use? Because if you are looking at a big spend there are probably better ways of seperating you from your cash.

My system is as per Option 1, mentioned in the first post of the thread.

I'm going to home dem an NDX this weekend.

I suppose another way to do it is to stick a USB of Flac files straight into the Naim DAC USB slot and play directly, thus avoiding the Mac altogether. Can't believe I missed that one!

Will report back.

 

[cheeseboy]

Maybe you can get perfect sound from a Mac/PC all i know is when i heard the streamer i didn't care anymore.. Be interesting to see if you do though. I just assumed that the way Naim build there stuff so intricatly it would have to make some kind of difference, so i took the plunge.. Maybe I have just payed £1900 for a media centre and DAC with software and drivers but christ it sounds good

Possibly, but that doesn't matter. Something is worth as much as somebody is willing to pay for it, so if spending 1900 on something brings you joy, then massive thumbs up I say

(generally speaking - so not a personal remark) given the current merging of computers and hi fi equipment there is a lot of misinformation and confusion going around, and yes, it's possible that you can put together something for a lot less money than an out of the box soultion. I was saying this on another thread about the vortexbox (ripper) that was being sold for £500+ when to actually put one together yourself with practically the same parts (different box) could be done for £300.

Here's a review of some different PC and Mac setups on High end stuff.. I'l try and find some other bits i was looking through before.. http://www.hifi-advice.com/Computeraudio-part-4-fileformats-revisited-mac-pc.html

Intersting read, but unfortunately the guy doing the review didn't even know about ASIO drivers until later on, when he updated his review. Given he took on doing a review like that without even knowing about ASIO drivers, and also ended up using a generic ASIO driver when the soundcard he was using has it's own proprietory drivers leads me to think his review is more money than knowledge I'm afraid.

 

[audiokid]

Hmm, I returned home tonight and plugged a USB stick into the DAC, therefore not using the Mac at all.

This sounds better than using my Mac. It's not in a particular area, just everything sounds better to me. Everything sounds a touch more insightful. They are not huge improvements, but a positive uplift overall.

I am hopefully going to demo the NDX at the weeeknd (at home) and takes things from there (yikes...££)

 

[BigColz]

Maybe I have just payed £1900 for a media centre and DAC with software and drivers but christ it sounds good

If you're using the DAC in your Naim then yes, that would fully explain why it sounds different to a Mac playing through your amp. Presumably when you tried the computer, you at least used the DAC in your Cyrus Pre XPd QX to give it a fighting chance. Even so, I'm hazarding a bet that the DAC in the Naim sounds better than the one in the Cyrus seeing that the unit costs about £500 more, so that's hardly a level playing field.

I use a Toslink optical cable and i've tried a USB cable into my Pre XPd QX.. Even the Naim dealer said the DAC in my Pre was eaisly on par if not better than the Naim.. Both DACs sounded great with the streamer.. I've been looking into this for a long time and there are a lot of people saying the same thing..

IMO At a similar price point, a well sorted Streamer sounds better. I believe the transport makes a difference, and keeping the whole thing "under control" in one box also works better......but as OD rightly advised, you have to hear this for yourself.

As CnoEvil says it's the transport part that is important. Even if you ''bypass'' all the problem with re-clocking and messing with timing and EQ it doesn't have dedicated transport that keeps things at audiophile levels before it reaches the DAC.. In a low/midrange system it probably not as noticable and some people wouldn't care.. It would be like saying playing a CD on a mac would sound as good as a high end CD transport.. Naim have spent years perfecting this, even if it was 'just software' it is reproduces data MUCH better than any mac/generic pc.. Infact better than Some CD players 2/3 times the price. Just listen to one and see what you think

 

[BigColz]

Hmm, I returned home tonight and plugged a USB stick into the DAC, therefore not using the Mac at all.

This sounds better than using my Mac. It's not in a particular area, just everything sounds better to me. Everything sounds a touch more insightful. They are not huge improvements, but a positive uplift overall.

I am hopefully going to demo the NDX at the weeeknd (at home) and takes things from there (yikes...££)

Sounded more natural? More Authority? Better Dynamics? Intersting the DAC has a USB input.. The streamer 'should' sound a lot better than that even.. Look forward to hearing how you get on

PS don't write off the ND5 XS it's by no standards 'entry level' sounding.. Infact the difference is very small.. Especially if you're planning on keeping the nDAC.. Been a bit of an uproar on forums as some guy too photos and the internals are almost identical.. If you can afford the NDX go for it, but £1100 a lot of dollar.

Good luck either way mate, I love mine!

 

[MajorFubar]

As CnoEvil says it's the transport part that is important. Even if you ''bypass'' all the problem with re-clocking and messing with timing and EQ it doesn't have dedicated transport that keeps things at audiophile levels before it reaches the DAC.. In a low/midrange system it probably not as noticable and some people wouldn't care.. It would be like saying playing a CD on a mac would sound as good as a high end CD transport.. Naim have spent years perfecting this, even if it was 'just software' it is reproduces data MUCH better than any mac/generic pc.. Infact better than Some CD players 2/3 times the price. Just listen to one and see what you think

I respect your view, but at the end of the day, if we're saying that a computer sounds inferior to a streamer when plugged into the same DAC, then going back to busb's post on page one (#14) it can only be because of his Reason 2: it isn't bit-perfect. This in turn can only be because of either poor ripping or poor playback.

As far as ripping on a computer goes, I hear the argument that the transports from such as Naim and Cyrus should easily waste a £15 DVD ROM drive on a computer, but I'm not sure how significant the differences are. If so instructed, most ripping software will happily instruct the drive to re-scan error-prone parts of the disc multiple times to get the best rip. In iTunes this is enabled by selecting "Use error correction" in the Import Settings dialog box. Some ripping software goes even further and will actually give you an overall accuracy-rating and tell you how many errors it was unable to correct. Neat stuff. So on the whole, I think that rules-out the ripping side, most of the time.

As for the playback side, you're right it is a bit legion, particularly for Windows users. However, unless we're saying that full-blown 'HiFi grade' players and plug-ins aren't really presenting a bit-perfect stream to the DAC like they claim to do, then that rules-out playback as well. That leaves just Computer->DAC interface anomalies like jitter. I've no idea why jitter would be worse from a computer-driven source than from a dedicated streamer, nor what the audio differences would be.

If dedicated streamers really do sound better as digital sources than computers using 'HiFi grade' software, then I'd like to know why, in easy-to-understand irrefutable terms. There are a good few people on this forum who have invested a lot of money in computer-based ripping and playback, and I'm pretty certain they don't think they're getting compromised results...