Hifi streamer vs playing from Mac into DAC

[Overdose]

It seems that some people are making the tenuous assumption that 'high-end' and high price equals superior quality. This is a mistake and one that will cost you dearly in monetary terms if audio quality is your only goal.

Affordable products like the Squeezebox Touch, amongst many others, are in fact superb and spending thousands on dedicated high end streamers will not neccessarily result in any audible benefits. Digital audio technology is reliable and very cheap these days, requiring a relatively small investment for superb reproduction. And it really is the case that a cheap nettop/laptop can be every bit as good a transport as any high end streamer in producing a digital signal. In fact a computer is far more versatile and will allow access to more formats than any streamer could hope to. They also have larger screens for viewing any media selection.

Of course, if you want to spend the amount of money that 'high-end' demands then that's what you should do, after all, some of the pricier components do look quite nice. Just be aware that all that glitters etc...

 

[WishTree]

This thread, especiallay after reading Cno's strong recommendation of a streamer got me into thinking and since I have some borrowed components, I decided to do some tests.

USB connection from Mac Mini iTunes to Marantz NA 7004

USB connection from Mac Mini iTunes with BitPerfect to Marantz NA 7004

DLNA server on Mac Mini and NA 7004 playing files directly

Airplay connection to Marantz NA 7004

Just for the heck, I put my Classe CP-800 in the equation

USB connection from Mac Mini iTunes to CP-800

USB connection from Mac Mini iTunes with Bit Perfect to CP-800

USB connection from iPhone to CP-800

All these while Classe CA-2100 is the power amp and CP-800 is the pre-amp and the speakers are KEF R300

My experiments are not blind folded so please take my findings based on your usual assumptions

iTunes with BitPerfect to Classe CP-800 directly sounded the best. Next is the iPhone connected to CP-800 BUT there is a difference in both. Though iPhone connection was not the most accurate there seems to be more emotion. I am guessing it is purely a mind game but also my macmini does not have SSD. However the CP-800 USB is supposed to extract only data over USB and discard everything.

With Marantz NA7004, things are not much different on any of the options except that Airplay sounded a tad less accurate. It made the biggest difference with BitPerfect turned on (things are more accurate and cleaner + precise)

 

[CnoEvil]

It seems that some people are making the tenuous assumption that 'high-end' and high price equals superior quality. This is a mistake and one that will cost you dearly in monetary terms if audio quality is your only goal.

Of course, if you want to spend the amount of money that 'high-end' demands then that's what you should do, after all, some of the pricier components do look quite nice. Just be aware that all that glitters etc...

I wouldn't call it a tenuous assumption, if you've heard the difference for yourself (possibly a subjective opinion).....and I take it from your comments that you've heard the Linn DS or Naim range of streamers, otherwise it could be argued that you are also making tenuous assumptions.

 

[MajorFubar]

Great insight WishTree, thank you for taking the time to both test and post!

 

[Overdose]

All music presumably the same song, same bitrate etc?

Any EQ settings on iTunes, or was it turned off (same question for iPod and Mac mini)?

 

[WishTree]

All music presumably the same song, same bitrate etc?

Any EQ settings on iTunes, or was it turned off (same question for iPod and Mac mini)?

Yes. Same two songs. All EQs off and both the songs are Apple Lossless format.

 

[WishTree]

Great insight WishTree, thank you for taking the time to both test and post!

I am not too sure whether I made things more clear or otherwise

 

[Overdose]

It seems that some people are making the tenuous assumption that 'high-end' and high price equals superior quality. This is a mistake and one that will cost you dearly in monetary terms if audio quality is your only goal.

Of course, if you want to spend the amount of money that 'high-end' demands then that's what you should do, after all, some of the pricier components do look quite nice. Just be aware that all that glitters etc...

I wouldn't call it a tenuous assumption, if you've heard the difference for yourself (possibly a subjective opinion).....and I take it from your comments that you've heard the Linn DS or Naim range of streamers, otherwise it could be argued that you are also making tenuous assumptions.

For the record, no I haven't ,but the statement I made is based on the fact that digital tech is cheap and need not be expensive for good quality. The tenuous stretch is made by people who have dismissed the cheaper option for something marketed as a premium product, at least in price terms, without having heard the back to back comparison. The belief being that if its expensive, it must be good.

If I were to hear an improvement in quality over my system and something more expensive (and that would have to be some sort of home demo) I might be inclined to spend more. For now, I cannot justify the expense when my system already sounds so good. It would also mean perhaps demoing kit on the pretense that I might buy it and I wouldn't want to do that. I would love to sit down and listen to a whole range of equipment, but have neither the time nor means, especially in this financial climate.

If Wishtrees reply is anything to go by, you could have a £4K amp/DAC and still not be 100% certain of any specific improvements. Certainly he couldn't detect any meaningful differences with the Marantz N7004 and that's not peanuts at over £700.

I am relatively certain in my belief, but willing to be persuaded or shown otherwise.

 

[CnoEvil]

I am not too sure whether I made things more clear or otherwise

How are you getting on with the R300s, and how do they compare with the 201s on your system?

 

[Overdose]

All music presumably the same song, same bitrate etc?

Any EQ settings on iTunes, or was it turned off (same question for iPod and Mac mini)?

Yes. Same two songs. All EQs off and both the songs are Apple Lossless format.

Ok, thanks for the info.

Insightful indeed.

 

[CnoEvil]

For the record, no I haven't ,but the statement I made is based on the fact that digital tech is cheap and need not be expensive for good quality. The tenuous stretch is made by people who have dismissed the cheaper option for something marketed as a premium product, at least in price terms, without having heard the back to back comparison. The belief being that if its expensive, it must be good.

If I were to hear an improvement in quality over my system and something more expensive (and that would have to be some sort of home demo) I might be inclined to spend more. For now, I cannot justify the expense when my system already sounds so good. It would also mean perhaps demoing kit on the pretense that I might buy it and I wouldn't want to do that. I would love to sit down and listen to a whole range of equipment, but have neither the time nor means, especially in this financial climate.

If Wishtrees reply is anything to go by, you could have a £4K amp/DAC and still not be 100% certain of any specific improvements. Certainly he couldn't detect any meaningful differences with the Marantz N7004 and that's not peanuts at over £700.

I am relatively certain in my belief, but willing to be persuaded or shown otherwise.

All I can tell you is that IMO Linn Sneaky is substantially better than a Sonos, and a Linn Majik is a good step up again.

This is very different from dissmissing good sounding vfm products like the SBT, or claiming that throwing money at an expensive solution is always the answer.....which I'm definitely not.

If WT ever gets round to listening to a DS, it will be interesting to hear his opinion.

I'm not having a go, it's just that I've heard some cheap, as well as some expensive options, and post my personal experience accordingly.

The scores given by this magazine are imo, not a mile away:
http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/streamer-league-table

Where the law of diminishing returns kicks in, and what any individual wishes to pay for the improvement, in the context of their system is a different argument.

 

[WishTree]

How are you getting on with the R300s, and how do they compare with the 201s on your system?

well.. I bought the R300s as they sounded great value at the price. They costed less than the Tannoy DC6T but sound so much better (barring the large scale of DC6T). R300s are still running in.

BUT, 201s are in such a different league. Though some songs were not forgiven by 201/2, I would rather not listen to those songs that to give up the 201/2s !!

You might not believe it the R300s presentation is a tad warm when compared to 201/2. R300s are a bit relaxed but the overall presentation and tightness of sound is so much better on 201/2

 

[WishTree]

If WT ever gets round to listening to a DS, it will be interesting to hear his opinion.

Now I am even more keen to listen to DS

However soon my CP-800 might get an ethernet upgrade to act as a nework player. Then from my end I will be able to say conclusively as I can connect the CP-800 via USB to MacMini (as I do now) or stream to CP-800 (which mimics the functionality of DS - Streamer +DAC)

If I happen to listen to DS earlier then I will report back!

 

[Overdose]

I'm not having a go, it's just that I've heard some cheap, as well as some expensive options, and post my personal experience accordingly. The scores given by this magazine are imo, not a mile away: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/streamer-league-table Where the law of diminishing returns kicks in, and what any individual wishes to pay for the improvement, in the context of their system is a different argument.

It's not your experienced opinion that I was referring to, rather those of people fairly new to the streaming malarkey. I don't entirely disbelieve that improvements are possible further up the digital equipment food chain, just that the margins are slim for the extra cost.

 

[CnoEvil]

well.. I bought the R300s as they sounded great value at the price. They costed less than the Tannoy DC6T but sound so much better (barring the large scale of DC6T). R300s are still running in.

BUT, 201s are in such a different league. Though some songs were not forgiven by 201/2, I would rather not listen to those songs that to give up the 201/2s !!

You might not believe it the R300s presentation is a tad warm when compared to 201/2. R300s are a bit relaxed but the overall presentation and tightness of sound is so much better on 201/2

I'm delighted that they are working out so well (it's wasn't for nothing that David was recommending the higher powered Classe amp for the Refs).....and what you've found is that the Refs are truely revealing, and why they work so well with Class A.......just imagine how they would have sounded on the end of the Inpol!!!

Apologies to OP for the re-route.

 

[WishTree]

I'm delighted that they are working out so well (it's wasn't for nothing that David was recommending the higher powered Classe amp for the Refs).....and what you've found is that the Refs are truely revealing, and why they work so well with Class A.......just imagine how they would have sounded on the end of the Inpol!!!

Apologies to OP for the re-route.

Apologies to OP.. I need to get the other thread going on.. as well as report back on the DAC / streamer performance.. but Yes, Reference 201/2 are much better than 805D from B&W - beyond doubt!

 

[Anonymous]

I'm a little confused here. Surely the easiest way to take the computer based source out of the 'quality' equation is to stream wireless or Ethernet, then it's bits of data going to the player rather than an audio 'signal'.

Personally I found that squeezebox did an ok job of getting signal from source to amp, which I then fine tuned to the sound I was happy with by using a separate DAC.

 

[BigColz]

As CnoEvil says it's the transport part that is important. Even if you ''bypass'' all the problem with re-clocking and messing with timing and EQ it doesn't have dedicated transport that keeps things at audiophile levels before it reaches the DAC.. In a low/midrange system it probably not as noticable and some people wouldn't care.. It would be like saying playing a CD on a mac would sound as good as a high end CD transport.. Naim have spent years perfecting this, even if it was 'just software' it is reproduces data MUCH better than any mac/generic pc.. Infact better than Some CD players 2/3 times the price. Just listen to one and see what you think

I respect your view, but at the end of the day, if we're saying that a computer sounds inferior to a streamer when plugged into the same DAC, then going back to busb's post on page one (#14) it can only be because of his Reason 2: it isn't bit-perfect. This in turn can only be because of either poor ripping or poor playback.

As far as ripping on a computer goes, I hear the argument that the transports from such as Naim and Cyrus should easily waste a £15 DVD ROM drive on a computer, but I'm not sure how significant the differences are. If so instructed, most ripping software will happily instruct the drive to re-scan error-prone parts of the disc multiple times to get the best rip. In iTunes this is enabled by selecting "Use error correction" in the Import Settings dialog box. Some ripping software goes even further and will actually give you an overall accuracy-rating and tell you how many errors it was unable to correct. Neat stuff. So on the whole, I think that rules-out the ripping side, most of the time.

As for the playback side, you're right it is a bit legion, particularly for Windows users. However, unless we're saying that full-blown 'HiFi grade' players and plug-ins aren't really presenting a bit-perfect stream to the DAC like they claim to do, then that rules-out playback as well. That leaves just Computer->DAC interface anomalies like jitter. I've no idea why jitter would be worse from a computer-driven source than from a dedicated streamer, nor what the audio differences would be.

If dedicated streamers really do sound better as digital sources than computers using 'HiFi grade' software, then I'd like to know why, in easy-to-understand irrefutable terms. There are a good few people on this forum who have invested a lot of money in computer-based ripping and playback, and I'm pretty certain they don't think they're getting compromised results...

Yeah i hear ya mate.. I'd love to know what REALLY makes the difference.. I heard some expert saying that the art with high end streamers like Naim, Linn and new Cyrus (supposedly a copy of Naim) is not neccesarilly just about bit-rate but rather the way the information is recieved and decoded, clocked, filtered etc from a stored data format to the DAC, as opposed to reading a disk where it is read and streamed there and then. Apparently it reads and streams the data from storage as (opposed to a disk) in certain algorithms (and other words were used).. Be good to hear from someone who has worked in development of these.. I don't know exactly what the differences are but they were massive from my mac mini to naim streamer.. Maybe my upscaling DAC just didn't like the PC signal.. I'm sure there is a way of building a pc based stystem that gets bit perfect results whether that sounds as good as a high end streamer due to other variables is unknown until someone tests it i guess.. But if you're happy with your sound then save your bucks..

Lets wait to see how ya man gets on with the NDX as he has the DAC there will only be one variable.. The computer or the streamer..

 

[cheeseboy]

Lets wait to see how ya man gets on with the NDX as he has the DAC there will only be one variable.. The computer or the streamer..

(meant tongue in cheek) but the streamer is a computer

 

[BigColz]

Lets wait to see how ya man gets on with the NDX as he has the DAC there will only be one variable.. The computer or the streamer..

(meant tongue in cheek) but the streamer is a computer

Ha it has computer elements yes, if it didn't i'd be pretty fecking impressed it could read and decode data files.. Beer says he hears significant improvements over the :type: ? :cheers:

 

[cheeseboy]

wonder if there's a market for "audiophile" beer

 

[Overdose]

wonder if there's a market for "audiophile" beer

It would be exclusively expensive, but would obviously taste sublime.

Personally, the best tasting booze is the round you didn't buy.

 

[BigColz]

Jupiler and Peroni are my high end beers

I only really drink 12yr+ or mixed single malt scotch

 

[WishTree]

Personally, the best tasting booze is the round you didn't buy.

+1

Long time back, my Boss (who by the way mints tonnes money) made me get us two glasses of wine for free and told me that it is part of my training as well as it tastes the best! Since then I have passed on this acquired wisdom over to my succesors

 

[BigColz]

Did you get a home demo Audiokid?