A converted sceptic

[hifikrazy]

What perverse pleasure do you get from it?

I like to help people.

Let's not fool anybody (yourself included) that your intentions are noble. This is just a place that you can get members of the same clan patting you on the back for making obnoxious statements that not only rile me up but many others here, new and old alike. Doing that is clearly important for your self esteem, and obviously something you're unable to get from the real world.

(Just adding another personal distasteful remark that he more than deserves)

 

[TrevC]

Considering the blatantly agressive and insulting responses of some people around here, I can't help but feel that you are criticizing the wrong person. I for one feel that TrevC has showed enormous restraint after many of the direct attacks aimed at him. It wouldn't be too hard to find several dozen personal distasteful qualifications that TrevC had to endure, and what is it that TrevC does: he says that somebody has wasted £500.

Don’t get me wrong – there’s silliness and rudeness on every page of this thread. And I agree that some of TrevC’s antagonists have behaved like twerps.

But he doesn’t have to endure this; he doesn’t have to endure anything. He knows perfectly well how these people are going to behave. If he doesn't like it, he can back out, but no: many of his posts are simply designed to bait and mock.

I happen to agree with him about cables. But rational arguments need to be put rationally. If you’re going to teach people the error of their ways, then behave like a teacher, not like a child. I’d expect higher standards of behaviour from people who know they’re in the right.

Matt

I don't seem to be able to find any criticism from you directed at those that have behaved like twerps. Could you post them again?

 

[TrevC]

What perverse pleasure do you get from it?

I like to help people.

Let's not fool anybody (yourself included) that your intentions are noble. This is just a place that you can get members of the same clan patting you on the back for making obnoxious statements that not only rile me up but many others here, new and old alike. Doing that is clearly important for your self esteem, and obviously something you're unable to get from the real world.

(Just adding another personal distasteful remark that he more than deserves)

Find just one ad hominem that I have posted and repost it.

 

[TrevC]

Trev, what is your take on the conception that one can combine expensive and extreme performing hifi components and get terrible results that can be surpassed by 10 times or 100 times cheaper well matched budget components?

Example:

Random hi-end: Wilson Alexandria XLF + 2x Classe Omega power + Classe Omega Pre + Esoteric K-01 CD/SACD + Cardas interconnects + Nordost speaker cable + Audioquest power cables.

Well matched budget: Neat Momentum 4i + Naim Supernait 2 + Naim Supercap + Naim CDx2 + Naim Cables.

I don't think there is any need to match components price wise at all. An expensive 300 watt amp will sound the same as a cheap one if the distortion is inaudible. The blind test you posted neatly demonstrated that. As for matching components, well the difference is aesthetics really.

 

[hifikrazy]

That's alright, just continue doing what gets you off. Who am I to rain on your parade?...that's your specialty. But oh.. it's only because you like to help people with your so called truths...according to the Book of TrevC.

 

[TrevC]

That's alright, just continue doing what gets you off. Who am I to rain on your parade?...that's your specialty. But oh.. it's only because you like to help people with your so called truths...according to the Book of TrevC.

Not my truths, the facts of the matter.

 

[chebby]

In between the attacks and insults and derision, take a little time out to have a listen to this Radio 4 programme ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0456qsb

Ok, I know kicking the ____ out of each other has become the entire point of such threads, but the programme is interesting nonetheless.

 

[matt49]

Considering the blatantly agressive and insulting responses of some people around here, I can't help but feel that you are criticizing the wrong person. I for one feel that TrevC has showed enormous restraint after many of the direct attacks aimed at him. It wouldn't be too hard to find several dozen personal distasteful qualifications that TrevC had to endure, and what is it that TrevC does: he says that somebody has wasted £500.

Don’t get me wrong – there’s silliness and rudeness on every page of this thread. And I agree that some of TrevC’s antagonists have behaved like twerps.

But he doesn’t have to endure this; he doesn’t have to endure anything. He knows perfectly well how these people are going to behave. If he doesn't like it, he can back out, but no: many of his posts are simply designed to bait and mock.

I happen to agree with him about cables. But rational arguments need to be put rationally. If you’re going to teach people the error of their ways, then behave like a teacher, not like a child. I’d expect higher standards of behaviour from people who know they’re in the right.

Matt

I don't seem to be able to find any criticism from you directed at those that have behaved like twerps. Could you post them again?

Here you go ...

some of TrevC’s antagonists have behaved like twerps

Normally I don't get involved with threads like this, because they're pointless. For a while when I was a teenager I thought it was funny to argue with the Jehovah's Witnesses who came knocking. I pretty soon realized it was dispiriting and a waste of time.

If it bothers you that my posts have been aimed at your posts, and not at your antagonists', then think of it like this: I expect you to respond to me rationally; I don't think the Jehovah's Witnesses would.

Matt

 

[TrevC]

Considering the blatantly agressive and insulting responses of some people around here, I can't help but feel that you are criticizing the wrong person. I for one feel that TrevC has showed enormous restraint after many of the direct attacks aimed at him. It wouldn't be too hard to find several dozen personal distasteful qualifications that TrevC had to endure, and what is it that TrevC does: he says that somebody has wasted £500.

Don’t get me wrong – there’s silliness and rudeness on every page of this thread. And I agree that some of TrevC’s antagonists have behaved like twerps.

But he doesn’t have to endure this; he doesn’t have to endure anything. He knows perfectly well how these people are going to behave. If he doesn't like it, he can back out, but no: many of his posts are simply designed to bait and mock.

I happen to agree with him about cables. But rational arguments need to be put rationally. If you’re going to teach people the error of their ways, then behave like a teacher, not like a child. I’d expect higher standards of behaviour from people who know they’re in the right.

Matt

I don't seem to be able to find any criticism from you directed at those that have behaved like twerps. Could you post them again?

Here you go ...

some of TrevC’s antagonists have behaved like twerps

Normally I don't get involved with threads like this, because they're pointless. For a while when I was a teenager I thought it was funny to argue with the Jehovah's Witnesses who came knocking. I pretty soon realized it was dispiriting and a waste of time.

If it bothers you that my posts have been aimed at your posts, and not at your antagonists', then think of it like this: I expect you to respond to me rationally; I don't think the Jehovah's Witnesses would.

Matt

Matt, that's an epic fail, as they say in modern interweb parlance. One day you might get over yourself.

 

[Broner]

I happen to agree with him about cables. But rational arguments need to be put rationally. If you’re going to teach people the error of their ways, then behave like a teacher, not like a child. I’d expect higher standards of behaviour from people who know they’re in the right.

Matt

I agree with you there, but when you are directing your attention to TrevC without focusing on others, you are showing that you are more disturbed by someone who you feel is right, acts decently, but in your opinion also rubs people (unnecessarily) the wrong way, then you are with people who are being agressive and insultive and basically wrong. You're sending out the wrong message here.

 

[Vladimir]

Trev, what is your take on the conception that one can combine expensive and extreme performing hifi components and get terrible results that can be surpassed by 10 times or 100 times cheaper well matched budget components?

Example:

Random hi-end: Wilson Alexandria XLF + 2x Classe Omega power + Classe Omega Pre + Esoteric K-01 CD/SACD + Cardas interconnects + Nordost speaker cable + Audioquest power cables.

Well matched budget: Neat Momentum 4i + Naim Supernait 2 + Naim Supercap + Naim CDx2 + Naim Cables.

I don't think there is any need to match components price wise at all. An expensive 300 watt amp will sound the same as a cheap one if the distortion is inaudible. The blind test you posted neatly demonstrated that. As for matching components, well the difference is aesthetics really.

You made the audiophile baby Jesus cry.

 

[Vladimir]

I happen to agree with him about cables. But rational arguments need to be put rationally. If you’re going to teach people the error of their ways, then behave like a teacher, not like a child. I’d expect higher standards of behaviour from people who know they’re in the right.

Matt

I agree with you there, but when you are directing your attention to TrevC without focusing on others, you are showing that you are more disturbed by someone who you feel is right, acts decently, but in your opinion also rubs people (unnecessarily) the wrong way, then you are with people who are being agressive and insultive and basically wrong. You're sending out the wrong message here.

Kinda resembles like when religious people react to other religions or atheists. Violently.

 

[Broner]

I happen to agree with him about cables. But rational arguments need to be put rationally. If you’re going to teach people the error of their ways, then behave like a teacher, not like a child. I’d expect higher standards of behaviour from people who know they’re in the right.

Matt

I agree with you there, but when you are directing your attention to TrevC without focusing on others, you are showing that you are more disturbed by someone who you feel is right, acts decently, but in your opinion also rubs people (unnecessarily) the wrong way, than you are with people who are being agressive and insultive and basically wrong. You're sending out the wrong message here.

Kinda resembles like when religious people react to other religions or atheists. Violently.

Don't quote me so quickly! There was still at least one grammatical error in my previous comment (sob sob)

 

[Jota180]

No not cables! But 'break in' of solid state

but I have only noticed it with my CA phono amp, never with speakers or amps, strange!

when I bough the CA azur 651p a while ago I thought I had wasted £112, not really any different from the built in phono, over the last week or so , its sounding more textured and layered with more musicality , not more bass or treble neccasarrily (can never spell that) just more open. I have owned this for 6 months now,

I am sure its not my imagination , is there something about phono stages in particular such as the caps that 'form' or break in?

You haven't considered you've just become accustomed to the sound over time rather than the sound changing?

If 'solid state' gear can change over the course of days/weeks then this is measurable and I'd expect to see graphs/charts showing this change all over the internet.

If, however, what has happened is you have become accustomed to the sound of the days/weeks, this cannot be measured by any means and there'll be no graphs.

Maybe someone knows of a chart or graph showing some solid state device changing it's sound over the weeks.

 

[Covenanter]

What is likely to change over the lifetime of a piece of equipment:

Anything mechanical:

- Speakers - moving parts may loosen over time, materials may degrade

- Turntables - belts and bearings will wear

- Arms - bearings might wear, alignment may (will!) drift

- CD players - bearings might wear

Valves - have a limited life but tend to be stable and then suddenly fail

Electrolytic capacitors - have a limited life (although this can be very long), characteristics do change a little (generally very little) from new then stabilise

Mechanical controls, volume tone etc

Things that are unlikely to change:

Solid state components such as chips, transistors and diodes - should stay unchanged unless over-driven and over-heated whereupon they will fail

Resistors and inductors

Cables - can suffer corrosion to exposed metal parts but internally there is nothing to change, modern insulation unlikely to degrade

That I think is the logical take on burn-in.

Chris

PS Please note I am talking about the lifetime of kit. In the very long run everything fails!

 

[steve_1979]

What is likely to change over the lifetime of a piece of equipment:

Anything mechanical:

- Speakers - moving parts may loosen over time, materials may degrade

- Turntables - belts and bearings will wear

- Arms - bearings might wear, alignment may (will!) drift

- CD players - bearings might wear

Valves - have a limited life but tend to be stable and then suddenly fail

Electrolytic capacitors - have a limited life (although this can be very long), characteristics do change a little (generally very little) from new then stabilise

Mechanical controls, volume tone etc

Things that are unlikely to change:

Solid state components such as chips, transistors and diodes - should stay unchanged unless over-driven and over-heated whereupon they will fail

Resistors and inductors

Cables - can suffer corrosion to exposed metal parts but internally there is nothing to change, modern insulation unlikely to degrade

That I think is the logical take on burn-in.

Chris

PS Please note I am talking about the lifetime of kit. In the very long run everything fails!

Good post.

 

[Vladimir]

+1

Indeed. :clap:

 

[matt49]

Matt, that's an epic fail, as they say in modern interweb parlance.

Could you try to explain why, without lapsing into insult mode again ...

One day you might get over yourself.

 

[matt49]

I agree with you there, but when you are directing your attention to TrevC without focusing on others, you are showing that you are more disturbed by someone who you feel is right, acts decently, but in your opinion also rubs people (unnecessarily) the wrong way, then you are with people who are being agressive and insultive and basically wrong. You're sending out the wrong message here.

I see where you're coming from, but I don't see why I have to be on message. This isn't politics.

I don't think TrevC does "act decently". I think his arguments are rational, but he sometimes puts them in a mocking and insulting way. It's not about "rubbing people up the wrong way", which would imply he did it unintentionally. He actually aims to mock and belittle people. Just look at his last post in reply to me.

One day you might get over yourself.

OK, pretty lame stuff, but the intention to insult is clear.

Matt

 

[namefail]

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein

 

[chebby]

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein

Someone already posted that.

 

[ifor]

Some places get really heated. This is copied and pasted here:

"I really can't be arsed to write it out again as I expect members to read posts and find it themselves, though the effect of dielectric is explained in this link as I have posted before http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric and a small extract for those who can't be arsed to read it yet still use derogatory terms like bollocks.

"When a dielectric is placed in an electric field, electric charges do not flow through the material as they do in a conductor, but only slightly shift from their average equilibrium positions causing dielectric polarization. Because of dielectric polarization, positive charges are displaced toward the field and negative charges shift in the opposite direction. This creates an internal electric field that reduces the overall field within the dielectric itself.[1] If a dielectric is composed of weakly bonded molecules, those molecules not only become polarized, but also reorient so that their symmetry axis aligns to the field."

It is capacitance but as you both say it is very very small, the problem is dielectric effect. Small amounts of signal are stored at the conductor dielectric boundary and phase delayed and fed back in as signal, QED creating information masking or distortion, and the effect of that boundary area forms or deforms over time, as it says in the article. So a non insulated cable does not have this problem which I have proved and is why I use as much tinned copper bar in my internal amp wiring as I can.

Now twisting and fine stranding conductors. First read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twisted_pair and you will see that twisting creates a filter to remove RF. Well that affects the music and makes the cable directional. Fine stranding twisted has similar effect on the music due to skin effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect which shows you even uninsulated wire has changes when you finely strand it and then you compound that by twisting or braiding it. These are all largely inductive effects

Extra reading http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Sco ... page1.html

If this is not enough on the technical side then I give up. Just look at the effects talked about here for which we have no means of measuring only to a degree calculating.

As I said I can build or use cable at will that does some of this, loads of this, or none of this, and I have proved it over and over again IT IS NOT A MYSTERY. I can build cable that burns in, is directional, warms up all together or separately or does none of the above, and I know why. I know how these effects affect how we hear music and I use them in my designs and have for decades. Mostly i select and design for no effect but sometimes practicality (like trying to use uninsulated cable outside the box) stops some of it. Good electronic design is the art of compromise.

Now if any member wishes to insult me by calling this bollocks then they are a blocked minded idiot and there is no place for them on this forum."

 

[namefail]

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein

Someone already posted that.

Perhaps I was expecting different results.

 

[steve_1979]

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein

Someone already posted that.

Perhaps I was expecting different results.

You did get a different result.

No one said "Someone already posted that" the first time.

 

[namefail]

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein

Someone already posted that.

Perhaps I was expecting different results.

You did get a different result.

No one said "Someone already posted that" the first time.

It was an attempt at humour via an allusion to implied madness.