A converted sceptic

[Alec]

See, Einstein was wrong!

 

[ISAC69]

Trev, what is your take on the conception that one can combine expensive and extreme performing hifi components and get terrible results that can be surpassed by 10 times or 100 times cheaper well matched budget components?

Example:

Random hi-end: Wilson Alexandria XLF + 2x Classe Omega power + Classe Omega Pre + Esoteric K-01 CD/SACD + Cardas interconnects + Nordost speaker cable + Audioquest power cables.

Well matched budget: Neat Momentum 4i + Naim Supernait 2 + Naim Supercap + Naim CDx2 + Naim Cables.

I don't think there is any need to match components price wise at all. An expensive 300 watt amp will sound the same as a cheap one if the distortion is inaudible. The blind test you posted neatly demonstrated that. As for matching components, well the difference is aesthetics really.

Another unreliable statment !

I agree that an expensive amp is not a goarantee to a good sound but to say that all the expensive 300 W amps will sound the same as a cheap ones if the distortion is inaudible is completly nonsense :rofl:

 

[Covenanter]

Trev, what is your take on the conception that one can combine expensive and extreme performing hifi components and get terrible results that can be surpassed by 10 times or 100 times cheaper well matched budget components?

Example:

Random hi-end: Wilson Alexandria XLF + 2x Classe Omega power + Classe Omega Pre + Esoteric K-01 CD/SACD + Cardas interconnects + Nordost speaker cable + Audioquest power cables.

Well matched budget: Neat Momentum 4i + Naim Supernait 2 + Naim Supercap + Naim CDx2 + Naim Cables.

I don't think there is any need to match components price wise at all. An expensive 300 watt amp will sound the same as a cheap one if the distortion is inaudible. The blind test you posted neatly demonstrated that. As for matching components, well the difference is aesthetics really.

Another unreliable statment !

I agree that an expensive amp is not a goarantee to a good sound but to say that all the expensive 300 W amps will sound the same as a cheap ones if the distortion is inaudible is completly nonsense :rofl:

Without debating the point at hand, I don't think you can win arguments by just stating your opinion as fact. You may think it is "completely nonsense" but that doesn't make it so. As it happens I'm somewhat on your side on this one.

Chris

 

[TrevC]

I agree with you there, but when you are directing your attention to TrevC without focusing on others, you are showing that you are more disturbed by someone who you feel is right, acts decently, but in your opinion also rubs people (unnecessarily) the wrong way, then you are with people who are being agressive and insultive and basically wrong. You're sending out the wrong message here.

I see where you're coming from, but I don't see why I have to be on message. This isn't politics.

I don't think TrevC does "act decently". I think his arguments are rational, but he sometimes puts them in a mocking and insulting way. It's not about "rubbing people up the wrong way", which would imply he did it unintentionally. He actually aims to mock and belittle people. Just look at his last post in reply to me.

One day you might get over yourself.

OK, pretty lame stuff, but the intention to insult is clear.

Matt

That is pitiful.

 

[ISAC69]

Trev, what is your take on the conception that one can combine expensive and extreme performing hifi components and get terrible results that can be surpassed by 10 times or 100 times cheaper well matched budget components?

Example:

Random hi-end: Wilson Alexandria XLF + 2x Classe Omega power + Classe Omega Pre + Esoteric K-01 CD/SACD + Cardas interconnects + Nordost speaker cable + Audioquest power cables.

Well matched budget: Neat Momentum 4i + Naim Supernait 2 + Naim Supercap + Naim CDx2 + Naim Cables.

I don't think there is any need to match components price wise at all. An expensive 300 watt amp will sound the same as a cheap one if the distortion is inaudible. The blind test you posted neatly demonstrated that. As for matching components, well the difference is aesthetics really.

Another unreliable statment !

I agree that an expensive amp is not a goarantee to a good sound but to say that all the expensive 300 W amps will sound the same as a cheap ones if the distortion is inaudible is completly nonsense :rofl:

Without debating the point at hand, I don't think you can win arguments by just stating your opinion as fact. You may think it is "completely nonsense" but that doesn't make it so. As it happens I'm somewhat on your side on this one.

Chris

Hi Chris

There are relatively cheap components that can produce great sound and are great value for your money and in contrast there are ridiculously

overpriced components that are no more than a rip-off . You have to match different components after a careful demo in your budget limits.

It's making me angry to read false staments of some people here such as all amps sound the same , carefull matching between components

is not necesssery , all cables sound the same act. :wall:

All the best :cheers:

 

[TrevC]

Trev, what is your take on the conception that one can combine expensive and extreme performing hifi components and get terrible results that can be surpassed by 10 times or 100 times cheaper well matched budget components?

Example:

Random hi-end: Wilson Alexandria XLF + 2x Classe Omega power + Classe Omega Pre + Esoteric K-01 CD/SACD + Cardas interconnects + Nordost speaker cable + Audioquest power cables.

Well matched budget: Neat Momentum 4i + Naim Supernait 2 + Naim Supercap + Naim CDx2 + Naim Cables.

I don't think there is any need to match components price wise at all. An expensive 300 watt amp will sound the same as a cheap one if the distortion is inaudible. The blind test you posted neatly demonstrated that. As for matching components, well the difference is aesthetics really.

Another unreliable statment !

I agree that an expensive amp is not a goarantee to a good sound but to say that all the expensive 300 W amps will sound the same as a cheap ones if the distortion is inaudible is completly nonsense :rofl:

Without debating the point at hand, I don't think you can win arguments by just stating your opinion as fact. You may think it is "completely nonsense" but that doesn't make it so. As it happens I'm somewhat on your side on this one.

Chris

Hi Chris

There are relatively cheap components that can produce great sound and are great value for your money and in contrast there are ridiculously

overpriced components that are no more than a rip-off . You have to match different components after a careful demo in your budget limits.

It's making me angry to read false staments of some people here such as all amps sound the same , carefull matching between components

is not necesssery , all cables sound the same act. :wall:

All the best :cheers:

Expensive amplifiers can, and do, often use exactly the same parts as cheap ones because electronics is cheap. Those that do will invariable sound the same. Now stop it with the strawman arguments, it's pitiful.

 

[TrevC]

Trev, what is your take on the conception that one can combine expensive and extreme performing hifi components and get terrible results that can be surpassed by 10 times or 100 times cheaper well matched budget components?

Example:

Random hi-end: Wilson Alexandria XLF + 2x Classe Omega power + Classe Omega Pre + Esoteric K-01 CD/SACD + Cardas interconnects + Nordost speaker cable + Audioquest power cables.

Well matched budget: Neat Momentum 4i + Naim Supernait 2 + Naim Supercap + Naim CDx2 + Naim Cables.

I don't think there is any need to match components price wise at all. An expensive 300 watt amp will sound the same as a cheap one if the distortion is inaudible. The blind test you posted neatly demonstrated that. As for matching components, well the difference is aesthetics really.

Another unreliable statment !

I agree that an expensive amp is not a goarantee to a good sound but to say that all the expensive 300 W amps will sound the same as a cheap ones if the distortion is inaudible is completly nonsense :rofl:

Erm, it's a fact if it's the same quality of amplification achieved more cheaply. Plasma TVs cost a fraction of the price that they used to. Is their performance worse? No, it's better. Of course the cheapie would probably be put in a cheap case and look crap, but that's beside the point. Much of the expensive stuff is cheaply made stuff dressed up, like Graham Slee for example. Or your cables.

See below.

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=vinyl&m=863876

http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm

 

[ISAC69]

Trev, what is your take on the conception that one can combine expensive and extreme performing hifi components and get terrible results that can be surpassed by 10 times or 100 times cheaper well matched budget components?

Example:

Random hi-end: Wilson Alexandria XLF + 2x Classe Omega power + Classe Omega Pre + Esoteric K-01 CD/SACD + Cardas interconnects + Nordost speaker cable + Audioquest power cables.

Well matched budget: Neat Momentum 4i + Naim Supernait 2 + Naim Supercap + Naim CDx2 + Naim Cables.

I don't think there is any need to match components price wise at all. An expensive 300 watt amp will sound the same as a cheap one if the distortion is inaudible. The blind test you posted neatly demonstrated that. As for matching components, well the difference is aesthetics really.

Another unreliable statment !

I agree that an expensive amp is not a goarantee to a good sound but to say that all the expensive 300 W amps will sound the same as a cheap ones if the distortion is inaudible is completly nonsense :rofl:

Erm, it's a fact if it's the same quality of amplification achieved more cheaply. Plasma TVs cost a fraction of the price that they used to. Is their performance worse? No, it's better.Of course it would probably be put in a cheap case and look crap, but that's beside the point. Much of the expensive stuff is cheaply made stuff dressed up, like Graham Slee for example. Or your cables.

See below.

http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm

You have a point here and I do agree that expensive system is not a guaranty to a better sound , but you somtimes make generalizations that aren't correct .

Regarding my cables here's a link to what others think about them and had the same experience as me :

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/tellurium-q-blackany-thoughts

 

[andyjm]

The parts cost (Bill of Materials, or BOM) of modern electronics is very small. Look at the Raspberry Pi, a fully functioning PC with ethernet and 1080i graphics with processing power similar to an IBM XT for $25. The price of niche Hifi is driven by the R&D and software costs, not the price of the components. Make enough of a high end amp, amortise the development costs over enough boxes and you can sell them cheap with no loss of fidelity.

It is my belief that this drove the sale of Naim to Focal, with the large software content of electronics these days, the economics dont work for high end hifi anymore.

 

[simonlewis]

How naive was i i've been here since 2008 and i used to believe the more you spent on cables the better result now i know a cheap and chearfull jobbie is just as good as a cable costing several hundred pounds, infact the more you spend the more you are getting ripped off.

 

[ISAC69]

How naive was i i've been here since 2008 and i used to believe the more you spent on cables the better result now i know a cheap and chearfull jobbie is just as good as a cable costing several hundred pounds, infact the more you spend the more you are getting ripped off.

There are relatively not expensive cables that can produce great sound and are great value for your money , In contrast there are ridiculously overpriced cables that are no more than a rip-off . You have to listen and decide what is the best for your system.

Your conclusion that all cabels are the same is uncorrect generalisation .

 

[TrevC]

How naive was i i've been here since 2008 and i used to believe the more you spent on cables the better result now i know a cheap and chearfull jobbie is just as good as a cable costing several hundred pounds, infact the more you spend the more you are getting ripped off.

There are relatively not expensive cables that can produce great sound and are great value for your money , In contrast there are ridiculously overpriced cables that are no more than a rip-off . You have to listen and decide what is the best for your system.

Your conclusion that all cabels are the same is uncorrect generalisation .

All interconnects made of normal wire will sound the same, all mains leads are the same, speaker wire needs to be low resistance, IOW thick .

The most expensive cables are manufactured for a tiny fraction of their retail cost, which is a rip off. Some people appear to like being ripped off.

 

[ISAC69]

Oh my God :doh:

You continue to make false generalizations .

 

[RobinKidderminster]

[/quote]

All interconnects made of normal wire will sound the same, all mains leads are the same, speaker wire needs to be low resistance, IOW thick .

The most expensive cables are manufactured for a tiny fraction of their retail cost, which is a rip off. Some people appear to like being ripped off.

[/quote]

'normal wire' ???? 'thick' wire ??? 'low resistance' ????

Some 'LIKE' being ripped off ????

Someone here will be anxious to disect your generalisations. But not I.

 

[TrevC]

Oh my God :doh:

You continue to make false generalizations .

You might call them generalisations, I say they are not false but simple rules to follow when setting up a hifi system. Use the interconnects and mains lead in the box if you get them then buy yourself some 4mm or so multistrand cable for your speakers. It will sound identical to tellurium foo.

 

[ISAC69]

Oh my God :doh:

You continue to make false generalizations .

You might call them generalisations, I say they are not false but simple rules to follow when setting up a hifi system. Use the interconnects and mains lead in the box if you get them then buy yourself some 4mm or so multistrand cable for your speakers. It will sound identical to tellurium foo.

Give me a break , The Telluriun Q ULTRA blacks RCA interconnects completely opened my soundstage it is more detailed, spacious and clear .

The bass is stronger and have more texture . I tested carefully every cable in my home before buying once I checked the Tellurium I was totaly amased how a cable can dramaticaly upgrade the sound quality . I was cables sceptic in the past but not anymore .

Everyone has to listen and let his ears to decide for him, I don't advise to buy this cable or other one if any . Don't make generalisations

for all of us what we should do or not , everyone is free to make his own decision what is the best for his system based on his own experience .

If someone checked different cables ih his system and concluded that all are the same it's OK too, he can use the regular stock cables . It's fine with me .

 

[Jota180]

Trev, what is your take on the conception that one can combine expensive and extreme performing hifi components and get terrible results that can be surpassed by 10 times or 100 times cheaper well matched budget components?

Example:

Random hi-end: Wilson Alexandria XLF + 2x Classe Omega power + Classe Omega Pre + Esoteric K-01 CD/SACD + Cardas interconnects + Nordost speaker cable + Audioquest power cables.

Well matched budget: Neat Momentum 4i + Naim Supernait 2 + Naim Supercap + Naim CDx2 + Naim Cables.

I don't think there is any need to match components price wise at all. An expensive 300 watt amp will sound the same as a cheap one if the distortion is inaudible. The blind test you posted neatly demonstrated that. As for matching components, well the difference is aesthetics really.

Another unreliable statment !

I agree that an expensive amp is not a goarantee to a good sound but to say that all the expensive 300 W amps will sound the same as a cheap ones if the distortion is inaudible is completly nonsense :rofl:

You'll have some double blind experiment links up your sleeve to back that up?

 

[ISAC69]

Jota 180

You'll have some double blind experiment links up your sleeve to back that up?

Yes I did , the differnce was so obvious that can not be mistaken . The Tellurium replaced other very good interconnect the Chord Chorus 2 that was excellent but too bright and smooth for my taste .

 

[TrevC]

Oh my God :doh:

You continue to make false generalizations .

You might call them generalisations, I say they are not false but simple rules to follow when setting up a hifi system. Use the interconnects and mains lead in the box if you get them then buy yourself some 4mm or so multistrand cable for your speakers. It will sound identical to tellurium foo.

Give me a break , The Telluriun Q ULTRA blacks RCA interconnects completely opened my soundstage it is more detailed, spacious and clear .

The bass is stronger and have more texture . I tested carefully every cable in my home before buying once I checked the Tellurium I was totaly amased how a cable can dramaticaly upgrade the sound quality . I was cables sceptic in the past but not anymore .

Everyone has to listen and let his ears to decide for him, I don't advise to buy this cable or other one if any . Don't make generalisations

for all of us what we should do or not , everyone is free to make his own decision what is the best for his system based on his own experience .

If someone checked different cables ih his system and concluded that all are the same it's OK too, he can use the regular stock cables . It's fine with me .

All I can say is well done. We can agree to disagree.

 

[TrevC]

Jota 180

You'll have some double blind experiment links up your sleeve to back that up?

Yes I did , the differnce was so obvious that can not be mistaken . The Tellurium replaced other very good interconnect the Chord Chorus 2 that was excellent but too bright and smooth for my taste .

The correct answer is no, I don't.

 

[Jota180]

Oh my God :doh:

You continue to make false generalizations .

You might call them generalisations, I say they are not false but simple rules to follow when setting up a hifi system. Use the interconnects and mains lead in the box if you get them then buy yourself some 4mm or so multistrand cable for your speakers. It will sound identical to tellurium foo.

Give me a break , The Telluriun Q ULTRA blacks RCA interconnects completely opened my soundstage it is more detailed, spacious and clear .

The bass is stronger and have more texture . I tested carefully every cable in my home before buying once I checked the Tellurium I was totaly amased how a cable can dramaticaly upgrade the sound quality . I was cables sceptic in the past but not anymore .

Everyone has to listen and let his ears to decide for him, I don't advise to buy this cable or other one if any . Don't make generalisations

for all of us what we should do or not , everyone is free to make his own decision what is the best for his system based on his own experience .

If someone checked different cables ih his system and concluded that all are the same it's OK too, he can use the regular stock cables . It's fine with me .

If you didn't do repeated double blind tests on your cables you have to accept there is the possibility that expectation bias played a part in your conclusions.

 

[ISAC69]

Oh my God :doh:

You continue to make false generalizations .

You might call them generalisations, I say they are not false but simple rules to follow when setting up a hifi system. Use the interconnects and mains lead in the box if you get them then buy yourself some 4mm or so multistrand cable for your speakers. It will sound identical to tellurium foo.

Give me a break , The Telluriun Q ULTRA blacks RCA interconnects completely opened my soundstage it is more detailed, spacious and clear .

The bass is stronger and have more texture . I tested carefully every cable in my home before buying once I checked the Tellurium I was totaly amased how a cable can dramaticaly upgrade the sound quality . I was cables sceptic in the past but not anymore .

Everyone has to listen and let his ears to decide for him, I don't advise to buy this cable or other one if any . Don't make generalisations

for all of us what we should do or not , everyone is free to make his own decision what is the best for his system based on his own experience .

If someone checked different cables ih his system and concluded that all are the same it's OK too, he can use the regular stock cables . It's fine with me .

If you didn't do repeated double blind tests on your cables you have to accept there is the possibility that expectation bias played a part in your conclusions.

This isn't the case here .

 

[Jota180]

Jota 180

You'll have some double blind experiment links up your sleeve to back that up?

Yes I did , the differnce was so obvious that can not be mistaken . The Tellurium replaced other very good interconnect the Chord Chorus 2 that was excellent but too bright and smooth for my taste .

There should be some evidence of blind testing cable on t'internet. If there's such an obvious improvement in sound quality the obvious thing for companies to do would be to conduct a public double blind test, post the video and put the argument to bed once and for all. The companies selling the expensive cables would have incontrovertable evidence and people would then flock en masse to buy these cables.

Win-Win as they say.

But I've seen no such video.

 

[ISAC69]

Jota 180

You'll have some double blind experiment links up your sleeve to back that up?

Yes I did , the differnce was so obvious that can not be mistaken . The Tellurium replaced other very good interconnect the Chord Chorus 2 that was excellent but too bright and smooth for my taste .

There should be some evidence of blind testing cable on t'internet. If there's such an obvious improvement in sound quality the obvious thing for companies to do would be to conduct a public double blind test, post the video and put the argument to bed once and for all. The companies selling the expensive cables would have incontrovertable evidence and people would then flock en masse to buy these cables.

Win-Win as they say.

But I've seen no such video.

You can say that on all Hi Fi components and not just cables . The best proof is your ears . If you don't hear difference use regular stock cables .

 

[andyjm]

The best proof is your ears.

If you could rely on your senses, why would blind testing be necessary?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_blind#Double-blind_trials