A converted sceptic

[peterpiper]

No not cables! But 'break in' of solid state

but I have only noticed it with my CA phono amp, never with speakers or amps, strange!

when I bough the CA azur 651p a while ago I thought I had wasted £112, not really any different from the built in phono, over the last week or so , its sounding more textured and layered with more musicality , not more bass or treble neccasarrily (can never spell that) just more open. I have owned this for 6 months now,

I am sure its not my imagination , is there something about phono stages in particular such as the caps that 'form' or break in?

 

[MajorFubar]

The scientific answer is 'no'. Any solid-state components not performing within tolerance at the point of manufacture are usually rejected by the component manufacturer. To take your example of a capacitor, the components'-manufacturers don't know if the capacitor they've made will end up in HiFi circuitry or in something more important, so there is no scope for them to take weeks or months to run-in before they work properly. "Sorry about your relative dying, only the electrolytic capacitors in his new dialysis machine were really meant for amps and DACs so they only work to spec after six months." Can you imagine the uproar. More likely you've got used to the different sound which was probably superior to your old one from the start but it took you a while to appreciate the difference.

 

[Covenanter]

Not another one! The logic of the OP is that he can remember completely accurately over several months exactly what he heard. Oh yes! Of course he could.

Chris

 

[nima]

Just put a sock in it (not aimed at OP).

 

[ifor]

To quote a designer/manufacturer:

"Unfortunately all audio electronics have a burn-in time and I for one wish they didn't...

It's mainly a complex function of capacitors, especially electrolytic types which audio circuits cannot get away with not having. Initially (as data sheets describe) leakage and dissipation factors are high but after some time of the equipment being switched on leakage diminishes to a fraction of its initial state and the dissipation factor adopts its specified perecentage. The rate at which this happens depends on where the capacitor is in the circuit: if it is straight across the power supply the time involved can be pretty-short, but if it's in a potential divider with a resistance much higher than say 1k or the voltage at that point in a circuit is substantially lower than the capacitor's rated voltage (which often it needs be to obtain the lowest DF), that takes substantially longer. If one cap is seen as a falling curve on a graph, then many are seen as superimposed falling curves - like a downward staircase - once all have adopted their end values regarding leakage and DF, it's burnt-in - but that can be weeks.

Further to that, metal film resistors (best for audio in my opinion) are known to take months, but that applies to almost all audio gear and this effect is much less noticeable.

An RIAA stage cannot avoid large numbers of capacitors because they're needed for frequency correction of the replay curve. These however are film capacitors and of smaller value and will adopt their final values sooner, but the twist to the tale is the RIAA stage also has electrolytics at places where there are potential dividers having considerably higher resistances than 1k.

The phono stage will unfortunately take a bit longer - about 3 weeks.

The reason why we advise the user to leave equipment powered on is to avoid going through this process over and over, because as soon as the equipment is powered down capacitors lose their charge (but should not completely revert to their as-new state). Because our designs ensure electrolytics always have a DC polarising voltage across them it can be seen that a signal isn't necessary during burn-in (or is it?)"

 

[Vladimir]

Electrolytic capacitors change and deteriorate though their lifespan and by this they change their performance and specs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolytic_capacitor#Reliability_and_length_of_life

As for medical grade equipment, it is designed with tolerances in mind.

 

[nopiano]

From Audioquest's website:-

Important Cable Facts Running-In: As with all audio components, audio cables require an adjust- ment period. This is often mistakenly referred to as “break-in”. However, break-in is properly used to describe a mechanical change-engines break-in, loudspeaker and phono cartridge suspensions break- in. A cable’s performance takes time to optimize because of the way a dielectric behaves (the way the insulating material absorbs and releases energy), changes in the presence of a charge. Cables will continue to improve in sound or picture quality over a period of several weeks. This is the same reason amplifiers, preamplifiers and CD players also require an adjustment period. The key difference between “adjusting” and “breaking-in” is that things don’t “un-break-in”, however, electrical components do “un- adjust”. Several weeks of disuse will return a cable to nearly its original state.

 

[Vladimir]

Do I need to massage them a bit to help them adjust?

 

[Singslinger]

I believe high-end amp makers Gryphon and Jeff Rowland run-in their amps extensively before shipping.

 

[andyjm]

To quote a designer/manufacturer:

"Unfortunately all audio electronics have a burn-in time and I for one wish they didn't...

It's mainly a complex function of capacitors, especially electrolytic types which audio circuits cannot get away with not having. Initially (as data sheets describe) leakage and dissipation factors are high but after some time of the equipment being switched on leakage diminishes to a fraction of its initial state and the dissipation factor adopts its specified perecentage. The rate at which this happens depends on where the capacitor is in the circuit: if it is straight across the power supply the time involved can be pretty-short, but if it's in a potential divider with a resistance much higher than say 1k or the voltage at that point in a circuit is substantially lower than the capacitor's rated voltage (which often it needs be to obtain the lowest DF), that takes substantially longer. If one cap is seen as a falling curve on a graph, then many are seen as superimposed falling curves - like a downward staircase - once all have adopted their end values regarding leakage and DF, it's burnt-in - but that can be weeks.

Further to that, metal film resistors (best for audio in my opinion) are known to take months, but that applies to almost all audio gear and this effect is much less noticeable.

An RIAA stage cannot avoid large numbers of capacitors because they're needed for frequency correction of the replay curve. These however are film capacitors and of smaller value and will adopt their final values sooner, but the twist to the tale is the RIAA stage also has electrolytics at places where there are potential dividers having considerably higher resistances than 1k.

The phono stage will unfortunately take a bit longer - about 3 weeks.

The reason why we advise the user to leave equipment powered on is to avoid going through this process over and over, because as soon as the equipment is powered down capacitors lose their charge (but should not completely revert to their as-new state). Because our designs ensure electrolytics always have a DC polarising voltage across them it can be seen that a signal isn't necessary during burn-in (or is it?)"

It would be helpful if you could attribute this to a source?

 

[chebby]

To quote a designer/manufacturer:

"Unfortunately all audio electronics have a burn-in time and I for one wish they didn't...

It's mainly a complex function of capacitors, especially electrolytic types which audio circuits cannot get away with not having. Initially (as data sheets describe) leakage and dissipation factors are high but after some time of the equipment being switched on leakage diminishes to a fraction of its initial state and the dissipation factor adopts its specified perecentage. The rate at which this happens depends on where the capacitor is in the circuit: if it is straight across the power supply the time involved can be pretty-short, but if it's in a potential divider with a resistance much higher than say 1k or the voltage at that point in a circuit is substantially lower than the capacitor's rated voltage (which often it needs be to obtain the lowest DF), that takes substantially longer. If one cap is seen as a falling curve on a graph, then many are seen as superimposed falling curves - like a downward staircase - once all have adopted their end values regarding leakage and DF, it's burnt-in - but that can be weeks.

Further to that, metal film resistors (best for audio in my opinion) are known to take months, but that applies to almost all audio gear and this effect is much less noticeable.

An RIAA stage cannot avoid large numbers of capacitors because they're needed for frequency correction of the replay curve. These however are film capacitors and of smaller value and will adopt their final values sooner, but the twist to the tale is the RIAA stage also has electrolytics at places where there are potential dividers having considerably higher resistances than 1k.

The phono stage will unfortunately take a bit longer - about 3 weeks.

The reason why we advise the user to leave equipment powered on is to avoid going through this process over and over, because as soon as the equipment is powered down capacitors lose their charge (but should not completely revert to their as-new state). Because our designs ensure electrolytics always have a DC polarising voltage across them it can be seen that a signal isn't necessary during burn-in (or is it?)"

It would be helpful if you could attribute this to a source?

Graham Slee

 

[davedotco]

To quote a designer/manufacturer:

"Unfortunately all audio electronics have a burn-in time and I for one wish they didn't...

It's mainly a complex function of capacitors, especially electrolytic types which audio circuits cannot get away with not having. Initially (as data sheets describe) leakage and dissipation factors are high but after some time of the equipment being switched on leakage diminishes to a fraction of its initial state and the dissipation factor adopts its specified perecentage. The rate at which this happens depends on where the capacitor is in the circuit: if it is straight across the power supply the time involved can be pretty-short, but if it's in a potential divider with a resistance much higher than say 1k or the voltage at that point in a circuit is substantially lower than the capacitor's rated voltage (which often it needs be to obtain the lowest DF), that takes substantially longer. If one cap is seen as a falling curve on a graph, then many are seen as superimposed falling curves - like a downward staircase - once all have adopted their end values regarding leakage and DF, it's burnt-in - but that can be weeks.

Further to that, metal film resistors (best for audio in my opinion) are known to take months, but that applies to almost all audio gear and this effect is much less noticeable.

An RIAA stage cannot avoid large numbers of capacitors because they're needed for frequency correction of the replay curve. These however are film capacitors and of smaller value and will adopt their final values sooner, but the twist to the tale is the RIAA stage also has electrolytics at places where there are potential dividers having considerably higher resistances than 1k.

The phono stage will unfortunately take a bit longer - about 3 weeks.

The reason why we advise the user to leave equipment powered on is to avoid going through this process over and over, because as soon as the equipment is powered down capacitors lose their charge (but should not completely revert to their as-new state). Because our designs ensure electrolytics always have a DC polarising voltage across them it can be seen that a signal isn't necessary during burn-in (or is it?)"

It would be helpful if you could attribute this to a source?

Graham Slee

I find myself wondering what age capacitors does Mr Slee use when designing his phono stages.

From the above, presumeably not new ones, so what? A week old? a month? a year?

Has he listened to his product continuously over it's rated lifespan so that he can tell us the optimum period that his product gives of it's best?

Given the price of some of his offerings, I should ****** well hope so.

 

[TrevC]

From Audioquest's website:-

Important Cable Facts Running-In: A cable’s performance takes time to optimize because of the way a dielectric behaves (the way the insulating material absorbs and releases energy), changes in the presence of a charge. Cables will continue to improve in sound or picture quality over a period of several weeks. This is the same reason amplifiers, preamplifiers and CD players also require an adjustment period. The key difference between “adjusting” and “breaking-in” is that things don’t “un-break-in”, however, electrical components do “un- adjust”. Several weeks of disuse will return a cable to nearly its original state.

Cobblers from a foo manufacturer. One's lugholes do the adjustment.

 

[TrevC]

To quote a designer/manufacturer:

"Unfortunately all audio electronics have a burn-in time and I for one wish they didn't...

It's mainly a complex function of capacitors, especially electrolytic types which audio circuits cannot get away with not having. Initially (as data sheets describe) leakage and dissipation factors are high but after some time of the equipment being switched on leakage diminishes to a fraction of its initial state and the dissipation factor adopts its specified perecentage. The rate at which this happens depends on where the capacitor is in the circuit: if it is straight across the power supply the time involved can be pretty-short, but if it's in a potential divider with a resistance much higher than say 1k or the voltage at that point in a circuit is substantially lower than the capacitor's rated voltage (which often it needs be to obtain the lowest DF), that takes substantially longer. If one cap is seen as a falling curve on a graph, then many are seen as superimposed falling curves - like a downward staircase - once all have adopted their end values regarding leakage and DF, it's burnt-in - but that can be weeks.

Further to that, metal film resistors (best for audio in my opinion) are known to take months, but that applies to almost all audio gear and this effect is much less noticeable.

An RIAA stage cannot avoid large numbers of capacitors because they're needed for frequency correction of the replay curve. These however are film capacitors and of smaller value and will adopt their final values sooner, but the twist to the tale is the RIAA stage also has electrolytics at places where there are potential dividers having considerably higher resistances than 1k.

The phono stage will unfortunately take a bit longer - about 3 weeks.

The reason why we advise the user to leave equipment powered on is to avoid going through this process over and over, because as soon as the equipment is powered down capacitors lose their charge (but should not completely revert to their as-new state). Because our designs ensure electrolytics always have a DC polarising voltage across them it can be seen that a signal isn't necessary during burn-in (or is it?)"

It would be helpful if you could attribute this to a source?

Graham Slee

I used to work for a company that made electronics to military spec.This meant that all components were measured, subjected to extremes of temperature, vibration tested and then re-measured. The amount their measurements changed was miniscule. I would therefore suggest that Mr Slee is over egging the pudding as much as he over eggs his prices.

 

[TrevC]

Just put a sock in it (not aimed at OP).

Burn-in is a clever invention to dissuade people from immediately returning hifi equipment they dislike.

 

[nima]

Just put a sock in it (not aimed at OP).

Burn-in is a clever invention to dissuade people from immediately returning hifi equipment they dislike.

Homo unius libri

 

[TrevC]

Just put a sock in it (not aimed at OP).

Burn-in is a clever invention to dissuade people from immediately returning hifi equipment they dislike.

Homo unius libri

Scientia est lux lucis

 

[Glacialpath]

What ever youo lot think PeterPiper states he used to be a sceptic. No he isn't. If there is no ware in how do you explain going from not liking what he hears to loving what he hear.

I suppose he could buy another one and set them up side t side and see if there is a difference. If there isn't then there is no burn in. If there is then there is such a thing.

All people have to say is. "Glad you now like or have got used to your new amp even though I myself don't believe in such a thing as a burn in period"

All you do when someone puts a happy post up is drag it down weather you are stating fact or not. Your lives must me miserable either that or you are gutted he's not one of you any more.

Wow I feel better now. Rant over lol.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kzo45hWXRWU
At the risk of repeating myself and possibly others our ears are a million miles from scientific instruments - our brains always get in the way.
'I can't believe my eyes' nor 'ears' is so very easy to illustrate.

 

[TrevC]

drag it down weather

It certainly is. Where did summer go?

 

[davedotco]

What ever youo lot think PeterPiper states he used to be a sceptic. No he isn't. If there is no ware in how do you explain going from not liking what he hears to loving what he hear.

I suppose he could buy another one and set them up side t side and see if there is a difference. If there isn't then there is no burn in. If there is then there is such a thing.

All people have to say is. "Glad you now like or have got used to your new amp even though I myself don't believe in such a thing as a burn in period"

All you do when someone puts a happy post up is drag it down weather you are stating fact or not. Your lives must me miserable either that or you are gutted he's not one of you any more.

Wow I feel better now. Rant over lol.

That would be fine, but.........

The concept is often used by the unscrupulous who use it to convince people who have bought the wrong equipment for their tastes that the problems are not 'real' and will go away with time.

This is nonsense, after the first day or two nothing much changes other than the ears of the owner who's ears become accustomed to the 'new' sound, the sound remains the same, good, bad or indifferent.

 

[T h e J u d g e]

How supposedly professional firms get away with this sort of ******** is beyond me.

 

[T h e J u d g e]

What ever youo lot think PeterPiper states he used to be a sceptic. No he isn't. If there is no ware in how do you explain going from not liking what he hears to loving what he hear.

I suppose he could buy another one and set them up side t side and see if there is a difference. If there isn't then there is no burn in. If there is then there is such a thing.

All people have to say is. "Glad you now like or have got used to your new amp even though I myself don't believe in such a thing as a burn in period"

All you do when someone puts a happy post up is drag it down weather you are stating fact or not. Your lives must me miserable either that or you are gutted he's not one of you any more.

Wow I feel better now. Rant over lol.

It's easy to see from your signature (power cables etc) that you are one of those gullible types and feel you have to justify your purchases to anyone who thinks differently... :rofl:

 

[T h e J u d g e]

How the salesman can keep a straight face when selling £1000 power cables (or any other sort of cable) is beyond me....

 

[Glacialpath]

It's easy to see from your signature (power cables etc) that you are one of those gullible types and feel you have to justify your purchases to anyone who thinks differently... :rofl:

I'm not gullible, I trust my ears.

I'm not trying to justify my purchases. I would only do that by saying I have never paid more than half price for the cables I use. My Hi-Fi is second hand some of which I got for free, the cables are old stock so couldn't be sold at full price and my speakers were in a sale still no doubt costing much more than it did to manufacture them. I think the only thing I paid full price for was my speaker stands. The're not great but do the job for now.

I'm the first to admit I believe cables make a differenc, there is such thing as a direction on a cable sounding brighter one way and not so the other way. I believe in a run in period too, everything settles in to its environment and yes we get used to how things sound but I notice the difference when if I revert back to the cheaper cables.

If I enjoy watching/listening to things more having bought expensive cables then that's what I'll do. Food is the same. People will spend more on the same bit of meat as some one else going to a shop and buying the same bit cheaper but the person who bought the more expensive piece will say it's a better bit of meat than the person getting the cheaper bit. No doubt if you cook them the same way in the same place would they taste different and which would be better.?