A converted sceptic

[TrevC]

because we can't trust our ears and brains to detect any differences.

True

Therefore, we should all buy the cheapest of everything.

False

The conclusion does not follow the premise.

I think it does, but you could substitute "cheapest" with "prettiest" or "smallest" or "biggest" or "blackest" or anything at all so long as it has nothing do with sound quality.

No, non sequitur is exactly what it is. Nobody has ever said that you should buy the cheapest loudspeakers, for example. I would say go for the most expensive speakers you can afford, compare, have a long listen or better still borrow some, and then find an amp with enough power to drive them properly, whether it be it Behringer or Krell. One 100watt per channel amp will sound very similar to any other.

Don't waste money on tosh like mains leads and interconnects. If they are in the box use those, and buy some nice thick stranded speaker cable.

 

[Glacialpath]

Don't waste money on tosh like mains leads and interconnects. If they are in the box use those, and buy some nice thick stranded speaker cable.

Ahh so speaker cable makes a difference. Maybe that's what I'm hearing, the fact that I got quite a heavy gauge speaker cable...no that can't be right it's the first and only speaker cable I've had on my Hifi. Maybe it's my interconnects....no no hang that's not right either.

Sorry Trev just messing. Bit of a contrediction there speaker cables being cable and all.

 

[TrevC]

Don't waste money on tosh like mains leads and interconnects. If they are in the box use those, and buy some nice thick stranded speaker cable.

Ahh so speaker cable makes a difference. Maybe that's what I'm hearing, the fact that I got quite a heavy gauge speaker cable...no that can't be right it's the first and only speaker cable I've had on my Hifi. Maybe it's my interconnects....no no hang that's not right either.

Sorry Trev just messing. Bit of a contrediction there speaker cables being cable and all.

No contradiction at all, my friend. Trust me.

 

[davedotco]

Analogies are mostly pointless, they simply cloud the issue and lead to arguments that are off the point.

State your point of view and argue it by all means, with luck both sides will learn something which is, hopefully, the point of this forum.

Trying to explain just how unreliable the ear/brain is when attempting to evaluate the difference between hi-fi components is pretty difficult to explain to someone who has not experienced such falibility first hand.

It often ellicits responses of the "I can hear the difference, why can't you" type and sometimes much worse. It leads to frustration on both sides.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

If you can better Aberdeen Angus steak from Aldi then I will be a converted sceptic. Forget HiFi - this debate is getting serious & personal

 

[davedotco]

If you can better Aberdeen Angus steak from Aldi then I will be a converted sceptic. Forget HiFi - this debate is getting serious & personal

I prefer my steak from Marks and Spencer, prepared and packed by golden haired virgins, makes all the difference.

If you can't taste the difference then you have an unsophisticated palate and poor cooking skills.

 

[Cockroach]

If you can better Aberdeen Angus steak from Aldi then I will be a converted sceptic. Forget HiFi - this debate is getting serious & personal

I prefer my steak from Marks and Spencer, prepared and packed by golden haired virgins, makes all the difference.

If you can't taste the difference then you have an unsophisticated palate and poor cooking skills.

Shaved?

 

[Vladimir]

If you can better Aberdeen Angus steak from Aldi then I will be a converted sceptic. Forget HiFi - this debate is getting serious & personal

I prefer my steak from Marks and Spencer, prepared and packed by golden haired virgins, makes all the difference.

If you can't taste the difference then you have an unsophisticated palate and poor cooking skills.

Shaved?

I've eaten with a full beard on my face. Definitely prefer shaved.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Clearly food IS a great analogy after all. Illustrative of expectation bias and the unreliabilty of our senses. I have never bettered the afore mentioned steaks from any supermarket, any butcher nor any restaraunt at any price.

Must get and make dinner - crisp butties tonight. Yummy

 

[peterpiper]

What ever youo lot think PeterPiper states he used to be a sceptic. No he isn't. If there is no ware in how do you explain going from not liking what he hears to loving what he hear.

I suppose he could buy another one and set them up side t side and see if there is a difference. If there isn't then there is no burn in. If there is then there is such a thing.

All people have to say is. "Glad you now like or have got used to your new amp even though I myself don't believe in such a thing as a burn in period"

All you do when someone puts a happy post up is drag it down weather you are stating fact or not. Your lives must me miserable either that or you are gutted he's not one of you any more.

Wow I feel better now. Rant over lol.

its not that I didnt like it , it still sounded fine, but it could be that I have accoustomed to the sound, just tried the phono in the amp, still good , but it seems slightly , actually very slightly narrowed sounstage with a a touch of graininess in the mid highs. Its over longer listening the sound seems better on the seperate phono, less tiring, possibly due to its lower THD ,,,,,ewhats aslo possibly happened id the cartidge has worn in too....oops

just seen this message hidden away under the lid of the box that the phono came....written by someone at cambrige audio

it reads........PLEASE ALLOW 36 HOURS CONSTANT USE FOR OPTIMUM PERFORMANCE

I have never used it for 36 constant, just the odd two hour listening session here and there :?

 

[pauln]

because we can't trust our ears and brains to detect any differences.

True

Therefore, we should all buy the cheapest of everything.

False

The conclusion does not follow the premise.

I think it does, but you could substitute "cheapest" with "prettiest" or "smallest" or "biggest" or "blackest" or anything at all so long as it has nothing do with sound quality.

Clearly you can buy things that are very cheap and are not up to the job. You can however also buy things that are cheaper that are up to the job. It's just another example of false logic employed in order to try to make a point and it failed.

 

[Vladimir]

I use my JRiver DSP to compensate for room acoustics instead of using wire. I tune it listening with my ears and I can have as many tries as I want, it costs me nothing, the sonic changes are real and instant.

Is the in-room frequency response flat? I doubt it and I don't really care. I just subjectively tuned the sound to my pleasure and quirks.

Using tone controls to fine tune sound is like using a flint axe to perform surgery, blindfolded. Cables are like kicking someone in the stomach to perform surgery, blindfolded and drunk.

I much prefer this (click to zoom).



I don't like boomy bass so I get rid of it this way instead of buying "cables light on bass" or stuffing foam bangs in the bass reflex port.

Oh, you can't do it in your CDP/Cassette/TT? Tough luck, you have to time travel forward to the 21st century.

...

Alright, soapbox vacant.

Carry on.

 

[davedotco]

I use my JRiver DSP to compensate for room acoustics instead of using wire. I tune it listening with my ears and I can have as many tries as I want, it costs me nothing, the sonic changes are real and instant.

Is the in-room frequency response flat? I doubt it and I don't really care. I just subjectively tuned the sound to my pleasure and quirks.

Using tone controls to fine tune sound is like using a flint axe to perform surgery, blindfolded. Cables are like kicking someone in the stomach to perform surgery, blindfolded and drunk.

I much prefer this (click to zoom).



I don't like boomy bass so I get rid of it this way instead of buying "cables light on bass" or stuffing foam bangs in the bass reflex port.

Oh, you can't do it in your CDP/Cassette/TT? Tough luck, you have to time travel forward to the 21st century.

...

Alright, soapbox vacant.

Carry on.

Looks wonderful.

Anyway you can use this, or something similar, on streams such as Spotify or Qobuz.........?

 

[ifor]

because we can't trust our ears and brains to detect any differences.

True

Therefore, we should all buy the cheapest of everything.

False

The conclusion does not follow the premise.

I think it does, but you could substitute "cheapest" with "prettiest" or "smallest" or "biggest" or "blackest" or anything at all so long as it has nothing do with sound quality.

Clearly you can buy things that are very cheap and are not up to the job. You can however also buy things that are cheaper that are up to the job. It's just another example of false logic employed in order to try to make a point and it failed.

Surely all he's doing is pointing out that we're told not to trust our ears, because they can lie, but we're told to go out and audition with the very same ears that we can't trust. It seems a fairly reasonable point to make. When can we trust them to guide us and when can't we?

 

[Vladimir]

Looks wonderful.

Anyway you can use this, or something similar, on streams such as Spotify or Qobuz.........?

Yes, by using the loop back feature.

Here is how I integrate Qobuz into Jriver18 :

-Select Chromium into Option , Tree and View, Web Browser, Engine

-add a connected media, Name : Qobuz Url: player.qobuz.com

-Select another Output for the default Windows Output that the one you use for Jriver.

-Select File, Open URL, type live://loopback

Your Qobuz music can then be opened into Jriver and is using the Jriver DSP studio engine.

^ From the JRiver support forums.

 

[davidvann]

i get it now ,when i go to my local hifi store ,who are 1 of the top 20 in the country,and i want to audition some new eqipment,i will point them in the right direction and tell them not to turn it on cos the guys on what hifi forum said not to trust my ears or my eyes when buying cos my brain is making it up ,and the shop staff are trying to bend me over a shaft me lol,in that case i'll take to zt 60.i would like to know the people who are saying dont trust your eyes and ears ,how did you go about buying your gear,or did ur brain trick you into it.david

 

[TrevC]

i get it now ,when i go to my local hifi store ,who are 1 of the top 20 in the country,and i want to audition some new eqipment,i will point them in the right direction and tell them not to turn it on cos the guys on what hifi forum said not to trust my ears or my eyes when buying cos my brain is making it up ,and the shop staff are trying to bend me over a shaft me lol,in that case i'll take to zt 60.i would like to know the people who are saying dont trust your eyes and ears ,how did you go about buying your gear,or did ur brain trick you into it.david

:rofl:

 

[simonlewis]

Switch off the hifi and switch on emmerdale a lot more entertaining imo.

 

[nima]

Oh, you can't do it in your CDP/Cassette/TT? Tough luck, you have to time travel forward to the 21st century.

What an utter load of narcissism.

Not suprising coming from someone who has a pic of the most uninspired, untalented, unmusical, antivirtuoso director of 20th century (who no surprises here, joined Nazi party in 1933) in his avatar.

 

[davedotco]

i get it now ,when i go to my local hifi store ,who are 1 of the top 20 in the country,and i want to audition some new eqipment,i will point them in the right direction and tell them not to turn it on cos the guys on what hifi forum said not to trust my ears or my eyes when buying cos my brain is making it up ,and the shop staff are trying to bend me over a shaft me lol,in that case i'll take to zt 60.i would like to know the people who are saying dont trust your eyes and ears ,how did you go about buying your gear,or did ur brain trick you into it.david

Talk about babies and bathwater.......

The whole point of this debate is to explain how unreliable your senses can be, to make you aware of what is going on so that you can go into a dem with your eyes (and ears) wide open.

Use checks and balances, repeat comparisons, go back and forth as often as you can, try and avoid direct switching, fade to zero then fade back in, try different volume levels, whatever.

You can try and learn how to listen to the music rather than the hi-fi, how things are played rather than what they sound like, i find that helps, you might find other techniques work for you.

Be aware, be armed and make better choices....... :rockout:

 

[davidvann]

The picture on my pioneer has really come alive since putting those blindfolds on those blacks are the best iv'e seen on any tv and the colour is just outstanding,just going to put my ear muffs on ,looking forward to the 7.1 surround sound will let you know,my wife is going a b x testing to see if i know whats playing. lol

 

[Broner]

Oh, you can't do it in your CDP/Cassette/TT? Tough luck, you have to time travel forward to the 21st century.

What an utter load of narcissism.

Not suprising coming from someone who has a pic of the most uninspired, untalented, unmusical, antivirtuoso director of 20th century (who no surprises here, joined Nazi party in 1933) in his avatar.

 

[TrevC]

The picture on my pioneer has really come alive since putting those blindfolds on those blacks are the best iv'e seen on any tv and the colour is just outstanding,just going to put my ear muffs on ,looking forward to the 7.1 surround sound will let you know,my wife is going a b x testing to see if i know whats playing. lol

Talk about missing the point. :roll:

 

[davidvann]

hi davdocto,at some point you have to trust your eyes and ears at some point or we would never buy anything,what my look good to you or sound good my not agree with the next man,so we have to make are own chocies ,and we do that by using the best eqipment we have ,and that are eyes and ears,they may not be perfect but all we got.so if the o/p saying he believes that he feels that the sound has inproved from burn in ,and is now happy with the sound ,who is anybody to say that it's brain/hearing is playing tricks on him,just saying.david

 

[TrevC]

because we can't trust our ears and brains to detect any differences.

True

Therefore, we should all buy the cheapest of everything.

False

The conclusion does not follow the premise.

I think it does, but you could substitute "cheapest" with "prettiest" or "smallest" or "biggest" or "blackest" or anything at all so long as it has nothing do with sound quality.

Clearly you can buy things that are very cheap and are not up to the job. You can however also buy things that are cheaper that are up to the job. It's just another example of false logic employed in order to try to make a point and it failed.

Surely all he's doing is pointing out that we're told not to trust our ears, because they can lie, but we're told to go out and audition with the very same ears that we can't trust. It seems a fairly reasonable point to make. When can we trust them to guide us and when can't we?

Some things make a difference, some don't. If your ears tell you that changing a mains lead has changed the sound your ears are not trustworthy, but for things that do make a difference like speakers you have to use your untrustworthy ears to listen to them. This can be very time consuming, so my advice is only listen to things that do make a difference.