What makes the sound be coloured ?

[this_is_vince]

Hi everyone,

For some of you this might be quite a beginner question... but...

Do the numeric outputs of sources, toslink or coax (like CD player, or network player) are transmitting to DAC exaclty the same numeric signal ? In other words, whatever the source (at equivalent quality of course) played will the sound be equal at the end ?

I mean what would be the point of investing in a expensive streamer when using it by bypassing its embeded DAC and working with an external one ?

Because i just bought a Bluesound Node in replacement of my non-capable high res sonos connect, still with a use of a cambridge audio DAC magic as external DAC. For regular 16 bits / 44Khz FLAC files is there any sound improvement possible ?

many thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Very best regards & Merrry Christmas.

Vincent

 

[CnoEvil]

You can drive yourself mad with this.

- How do you know if what your hearing is coloured...and by how much.
- What did the original recording sound like when it was mastered?
- Which bit of the system is causing the most coloration?
- What effect is the room or system setup having.

I would argue that you should go for a sound that is preferable, rather than striving for neutral (which is hard to determine).

IME. You need to get out there and hear as much as possible, in order to build up a "database" of experience...which helps you to understand what you like and how to achieve it.

 

[Vladimir]

Clicky

 

[lpv]

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/showthread.php?2742-Setting-up-our-home-systems-do-we-have-the-basics-in-place

 

[plastic penguin]

You can drive yourself mad with this.

- How do you know if what your hearing is coloured...and by how much. - What did the original recording sound like when it was mastered? - Which bit of the system is causing the most coloration? - What effect is the room or system setup having.

I would argue that you should go for a sound that is preferable, rather than striving for neutral (which is hard to determine).

IME. You need to get out there and hear as much as possible, in order to build up a "database" of experience...which helps you to understand what you like and how to achieve it.

Couldn't agree more. People spend too much time about whether a component is neutral/warm/coloured/other and forget about what makes their music sound good.

Is my Electrocompaniet coloured because it has a ever-so-slightly smoother presentation? Don't care one way or the other.

 

[matt49]

I think the OP's question was rather more specific than the answers that have been given upstream.

The OP is asking about digital sources, and the answer is simple: so long as (1) the digital output is bit-perfect and (2) the source (especially its PSU) doesn't inject any nasties into the signal and (3) the DAC has decent jitter rejection, then the results will not be coloured. (1) and (3) are easy to achieve these days. (2) may be a bit of an unknown.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

The speakers.

Is the correct answer.

Don't worry too much about the hardware. Just ensure you have decent cables, well terminated and your speakers are in phase and well set up in your room.

Then you gets what you paid for......

 

[pyrrhon]

Hi everyone,

For some of you this might be quite a beginner question... but...

Do the numeric outputs of sources, toslink or coax (like CD player, or network player) are transmitting to DAC exaclty the same numeric signal ? In other words, whatever the source (at equivalent quality of course) played will the sound be equal at the end ?

I mean what would be the point of investing in a expensive streamer when using it by bypassing its embeded DAC and working with an external one ?

Because i just bought a Bluesound Node in replacement of my non-capable high res sonos connect, still with a use of a cambridge audio DAC magic as external DAC. For regular 16 bits / 44Khz FLAC files is there any sound improvement possible ?

many thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Very best regards & Merrry Christmas.

Vincent

There should not be differences between streamers if it only send bits but you should not forget the importance of the clock. The streamer will act as the pulse. The binary often arrives out of sync leading to very audible problems. The coax cable impedance and shielding is crucial when outputting digital.

Some dacs work on a buffer and reclocks the data with these every streamer should sound the same.

The node has tone control and is by default at +3 dB on bass I heard. I think the node should beat your cambridge because it's a better dac chip and a great circuit made by nad if not mistaken. Let it burn in well, adjust the bass and you can sell your cambridge dac imo.

 

[steve_1979]

... Don't worry too much about the hardware. Just ensure you have decent cables ...

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Amazes me how stuck some of you guys are on the idea of these 1's and 0's.

You know a speaker only delivers an analog sound.....right?

How many of you get that a 'DAC' output is limited by the signal it receives?

This idea digital is digital really needs to be cleared up - you're misleading posters with your ignorance.

 

[MajorFubar]

...won't necessarily be corrupted in any way that gives rise to tonal coloration until it's converted to analogue, which it has to be at some point because our brains can't directly take-in a feed of 1s and 0s from a CD or streamer and turn them into audio.

Analogue signals, such as the soundwaves stamped into a record's spiral grooves, are unavoidably colored to some degree by every part of the process, from their creation to their replay. But analogue enthusiasts worry far less about such things than digital afficianados. Sure they buy the best equipment they can afford and set it up as optimally as they can so it that it transduces the waveforms in their records to electrical signals with the minimum amount of added distortion, but on the whole they concern themselves more about whether they actually enjoy the sound coming out their speakers than whether it can be proved to be a 'bit perfect' (clearly not literally) representation of the LP.

Once upon a time not too long ago, that's what it was all about. It all started going wrong when people began worrying more about whether the sound that comes out their speakers is a true and accurate conversion of the stream of numbers stored on the CD or hard drive with no added sugars or preservatives than whether they actually enjoy listening to it.

 

[MajorFubar]

you're misleading posters with your ignorance.

LOL! Can't believe you of all people said that...think I'm going to make it my new signature.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

you're misleading posters with your ignorance.

LOL! Can't believe you of all people said that...think I'm going to make it my new signature.

It had to be said Major, because no ones challenged you you are convinced what you're saying is correct - you're one of the worst culprits and you're vocal with it.

 

[matt49]

How many of you get that a 'DAC' output is limited by the signal it receives?

Wanna explain how?

 

[Vladimir]

You can drive yourself mad with this.

- How do you know if what your hearing is coloured...and by how much. - What did the original recording sound like when it was mastered? - Which bit of the system is causing the most coloration? - What effect is the room or system setup having.

I would argue that you should go for a sound that is preferable, rather than striving for neutral (which is hard to determine).

IME. You need to get out there and hear as much as possible, in order to build up a "database" of experience...which helps you to understand what you like and how to achieve it.

Couldn't agree more. People spend too much time about whether a component is neutral/warm/coloured/other and forget about what makes their music sound good.

Is my Electrocompaniet coloured because it has a ever-so-slightly smoother presentation? Don't care one way or the other.

If you're comparing it to your Naim CDP I believe odds are the later is voiced in some way and the EC is left with neutral FR. I'm just speculating based on company philosophy of doing things. To my impression Electrocompaniet has 'these are round pegs for round holes, square ones for square holes' approach, while Naim does that 'these are Naim pegs and go into Naim holes' thing.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Sure......

A 'DAC' is transparent it does what it says on the can. The chip is designed to a given specification.

Hence the use of the same spec chip being used across numerous devices in a series range.

Marantz PM series to the SA is an example.

The quality of say the laser matters. How much info can be extracted from a medium and passed on or the quality off a sound card.

Thats why prices differ and why they don't all sound the same.

I know many think a soundcard from a Mac circa 1999 costing a couple hundred pounds will sound the same as a modern sound card costing 4times as much but they don't.

A stand alone DAC will not introduce information that's not there at the start.

Don't scrimp on the front end. Don't fool yourself in thinking a transport like the Marantz cd6005 will match the Audiolab 8200cd if used purely as a transport through a standalone DAC.

Just step back and give it some thought.

 

[Vladimir]

Sure......

A 'DAC' is transparent it does what it says on the can. The chip is designed to a given specification.

Hence the use of the same spec chip being used across numerous devices in a series range.

Marantz PM series to the SA is an example.

The quality of say the laser matters. How much info can be extracted from a medium and passed on or the quality off a sound card.

Thats why prices differ and why they don't all sound the same.

I know many think a soundcard from a Mac circa 1999 costing a couple hundred pounds will sound the same as a modern sound card costing 4times as much but they don't.

A stand alone DAC will not introduce information that's not there at the start.

Don't scrimp on the front end. Don't fool yourself in thinking a transport like the Marantz cd6005 will match the Audiolab 8200cd.

Just step back and give it some thought.

If you've read the NwAvGuy reviews on some audiophile DACs, you will see measurements proving not all of these are neutral sounding units and manufacturers responded that they are intentionally voiced for 'smoother sound' or whatever. People want different and many are there to provide the difference even if it means less sonic fidelity. We can never know how many amps, DACs and CDPs are intentionally modified to have some loudness curve or bass boost embedded, unless we measure that is. But this is of no significance to the 'audiophile synergy system building' paradigm (hot goes with cold to create mild, bright with dark etc.) as Cno nicely explained. If you have no technical knowledge or interest attaining it, you'll only cause yourself a headache by learning. Best to just listen.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Fair enough Vlad. But the 'DAC's only concern is to convert the digital signal that it receives - to use one of my old lines 'these are not intelligent devices'.

Its a chip in a box.

 

[matt49]

No doubt Steve1979 will be along in a moment to tell us all to ignore you. In the meantime ...

Sure......

A 'DAC' is transparent it does what it says on the can. The chip is designed to a given specification.

Hence the use of the same spec chip being used across numerous devices in a series range.

Marantz PM series to the SA is an example.

We were talking about what happens BEFORE the signal reaches the DAC, not what the DAC does with the signal. Please try not to change the subject at random.

The quality of say the laser matters. How much info can be extracted from a medium and passed on or the quality off a sound card.

Modern CDPs buffer the data and check for errors: the 'quality' of the laser shouldn't matter. In any case, your argument here only relates to CDPs, not to digital sources in general. A PC used as a music source cannot be prone to laser read errors because it doesn't use a laser and it does error checking.

Thats why prices differ and why they don't all sound the same.

I know many think a soundcard from a Mac circa 1999 costing a couple hundred pounds will sound the same as a modern sound card costing 4times as much but they don't.

Bald assertion: no argument.

A stand alone DAC will not introduce information that's not there at the start.

Sure, but you haven't yet managed to explain why any information should be missing.

 

[Esra]

Fair enough Vlad. But the 'DAC's only concern is to convert the digital signal that it receives - to use one of my old lines 'these are not intelligent devices'.

Its a chip in a box.

These chips have different algorithms and some of them you can program (some flavour).On the other hand there are different designs to integrate these chips and some dacs have even more than just one chip.Power supply,shielding,analogue output,jitter reduction,buffer etc...also different.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Fair enough Vlad. But the 'DAC's only concern is to convert the digital signal that it receives - to use one of my old lines 'these are not intelligent devices'.

Its a chip in a box.

?

These chips have different algorithms and some of them you can program (some flavour).On the other hand there are different designs to integrate these chips and some dacs have even more than just one chip.Power supply,shielding,analogue output,jitter reduction,buffer etc...also different.

Exactly - the chip is designed to accommodate all you have listed.

Hence price differences sound quality differences..... Etc.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

No doubt Steve1979 will be along in a moment to tell us all to ignore you. In the meantime ...

Sure......

A 'DAC' is transparent it does what it says on the can. The chip is designed to a given specification.

Hence the use of the same spec chip being used across numerous devices in a series range.

Marantz PM series to the SA is an example.

We were talking about what happens BEFORE the signal reaches the DAC, not what the DAC does with the signal. Please try not to change the subject at random.

The quality of say the laser matters. How much info can be extracted from a medium and passed on or the quality off a sound card. 

Modern CDPs buffer the data and check for errors: the 'quality' of the laser shouldn't matter. In any case, your argument here only relates to CDPs, not to digital sources in general. A PC used as a music source cannot be prone to laser read errors because it doesn't use a laser and it does error checking.

Thats why prices differ and why they don't all sound the same.

I know many think a soundcard from a Mac circa 1999 costing a couple hundred pounds will sound the same as a modern sound card costing 4times as much but they don't. 

Bald assertion: no argument.

A stand alone DAC will not introduce information that's not there at the start.

Sure, but you haven't yet managed to explain why any information should be missing.

 

Bandwidth - the ability to carry information or should that be how much information that can be carried to the dac thats to be converted.

The quality of the laser is critical!

The quality of the circuitry in your device of choice - it matters.

Feel free to follow Steve1979.......

 

[Thompsonuxb]

*dirol* ......yep!

 

[matt49]

Bandwidth - the ability to carry information or should that be how much information that can be carried to the dac thats to be converted.

Bandwidth bottlenecks don't cause degradation in sound quality: if bandwidth isn't up to the job, then the music will simply stop or stutter.

The quality of the laser is critical!

I've already explained to you why this isn't an issue in modern CDPs.

The quality of the circuitry in your device of choice - it matters.

No it doesn't. If it did -- if the 'quality' of the circuit boards etc had a deleterious effect on digital data -- then I would experience odd and random changes to my bank balance. Websites would render in subtly different ways when loaded. (Ever noticed that the colour of the WHF website is always exactly the same?) But these things don't happen. You need to ask yourself why.

Feel free to follow Steve1979.......

I can see that would be an easy way out for you.

As has been said before, you have experience of quite a lot of hi-fi kit, and you often give helpful buying advice to people on this forum. But you profoundly misunderstand how digital music works.

 

[Covenanter]

This is worth reading:

www.kenrockwell.com/audio/why-cds-sound-great.htm

Chris