• If you ever spot Spam (either in the forums, or received via forum direct message) please use the Report button at the bottom of each post to make sure a Moderator can handle it quickly. Thanks for your help in keeping things running smoothly!

Vinyl vs cd in the lab -take 2

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the What HiFi community: the world's leading independent guide to buying and owning hi-fi and home entertainment products.

Frank Harvey

Well-known member
Jun 27, 2008
567
0
18,890
davedotco said:
iZotope does a lot more than just that.

But I understand it would be difficult to see that given all the sand in your eyes....... ;)
That seemed to be the main feature of the program that would make the biggest change to the signal.

No sand in my eyes - my opinions are based on listening rather than reading the opinions of others. I don't care if vinyl is technically inferior to CD, and I don't care if it eventually wears out as I'll never play them enough times in my lifetime for that to happen, and if thatsituation does arise, I have a second copy of my very favourite stuff to fall back on.

There have been a lot of people recently hearing what vinyl is capable of (not necessarily in the high end arena) who have pretty much converted back to vinyl as they prefer the sound of it too. These aren't 'pro vinyl' people - these are people who have been using digital sources for quite some time now, and are staggered at how good vinyl sounds in comparison to what they've been used to hearing from digital.
 

Frank Harvey

Well-known member
Jun 27, 2008
567
0
18,890
Native_bon said:
We have been sold a concept of what sounds better.. If the sound of records can be emulated by software what stops anyway one from doing that..
If people can't explain how or why vinyl sounds the way it does, how can it be accurately emulated?
 

davedotco

New member
Apr 24, 2013
20
0
0
David@FrankHarvey said:
davedotco said:
iZotope does a lot more than just that.

But I understand it would be difficult to see that given all the sand in your eyes....... ;)
That seemed to be the main feature of the program that would make the biggest change to the signal.

No sand in my eyes - my opinions are based on listening rather than reading the opinions of others. I don't care if vinyl is technically inferior to CD, and I don't care if it eventually wears out as I'll never play them enough times in my lifetime for that to happen, and if thatsituation does arise, I have a second copy of my very favourite stuff to fall back on.

There have been a lot of people recently hearing what vinyl is capable of (not necessarily in the high end arena) who have pretty much converted back to vinyl as they prefer the sound of it too. These aren't 'pro vinyl' people - these are people who have been using digital sources for quite some time now, and are staggered at how good vinyl sounds in comparison to what they've been used to hearing from digital.
People like the sound of vinyl because it conforms to what they think music should sound like.

Mostly they are simply wrong, in the case of inexpensive vinyl playback systems almost always so.

I have no problem with that, people like what they like and are free to listen to whatever gives them enjoyment.

But as was said in a rather contentious thread a month or two back, it has nothing to do with high fidelity, in the proper sense of the words anyway.
 

Frank Harvey

Well-known member
Jun 27, 2008
567
0
18,890
davedotco said:
People like the sound of vinyl because it conforms to what they think music should sound like.
If that is the case, then it won't affect enjoyability of the music, and vinyl lovers will enjoy their music just as much as digital lovers do. So, each to their own, no point discussing it is there really unless it is just to call someonebody else 'wrong'.
 

Sospri

New member
Mar 23, 2011
28
0
0
Why does it have to be so contentious, I have both CD and streaming but also Vinyl. Mostly I stream music while I'm doing other things about the house.

If I want to really sit and listen and be involved in music it has to be vinyl, so what I'm saying is that both types

of music reproduction has its place ....................
 
J

jcbrum

Guest
Hmmm, I'm not so sure . . .

This is what the manufacturers say about it . . .

" The ELP Laser Turntable is the ONLY turntable able to see and reproduce ALL the Analog Music in a vinyl record groove using a laser-NO STYLUS! No more contact with vinyl! No more vinyl wear! Definitely a High-Tech Turntable! The laser "sees" and plays the music that a stylus misses! No digitization! With the purest, sweetest Analog Playback! "

I wonder if Alan Shaw would regard it as a 'no contact system' with regard to his recent video, explaining that vinyl is flawed because it's a 'direct contact' system.

Anyway, it's still an analogue vinyl record which is being played, with all the faults inherent in such a product.

JC
 

davedotco

New member
Apr 24, 2013
20
0
0
David@FrankHarvey said:
davedotco said:
People like the sound of vinyl because it conforms to what they think music should sound like.
If that is the case, then it won't affect enjoyability of the music, and vinyl lovers will enjoy their music just as much as digital lovers do. So, each to their own, no point discussing it is there really unless it is just to call someonebody else 'wrong'.
David, no way is enjoying your music wrong, sometimes it just isn't hi-fi.

High fidelity implies an attempt to reproduce music as it was performed and recorded, anything that deliberately modifies the recording to sound like something else is 'wrong', in high fidelity terms at least.

I may not be important to you, but anything that deliberate alters (distorts) the music is, to me, offensive, others clearly think otherwise.

Personally I find that the more accurate a system is, the easier it is to engage with new (to me) music and particularly music that may be a little more complex. Of course I have my own interpretation of what accurate is and this is the area where individual choice does come into play but this is because of the limitations involved in domestic reproduction rather than any desire to make the music sound 'nice'.
 

Native_bon

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2008
180
2
18,595
davedotco said:
David@FrankHarvey said:
davedotco said:
iZotope does a lot more than just that.

But I understand it would be difficult to see that given all the sand in your eyes....... ;)
That seemed to be the main feature of the program that would make the biggest change to the signal.

No sand in my eyes - my opinions are based on listening rather than reading the opinions of others. I don't care if vinyl is technically inferior to CD, and I don't care if it eventually wears out as I'll never play them enough times in my lifetime for that to happen, and if thatsituation does arise, I have a second copy of my very favourite stuff to fall back on.

There have been a lot of people recently hearing what vinyl is capable of (not necessarily in the high end arena) who have pretty much converted back to vinyl as they prefer the sound of it too. These aren't 'pro vinyl' people - these are people who have been using digital sources for quite some time now, and are staggered at how good vinyl sounds in comparison to what they've been used to hearing from digital.
People like the sound of vinyl because it conforms to what they think music should sound like.

Mostly they are simply wrong, in the case of inexpensive vinyl playback systems almost always so.

I have no problem with that, people like what they like and are free to listen to whatever gives them enjoyment.

But as was said in a rather contentious thread a month or two back, it has nothing to do with high fidelity, in the proper sense of the words anyway.
Ok like that you said its got nothing to do with high fidelity. That was my piont.. who is to say what is high fidelity if it can emulate the sound of real instrumnets in anyway or form or something close to the real sound.
 

Native_bon

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2008
180
2
18,595
David@FrankHarvey said:
Native_bon said:
We have been sold a concept of what sounds better.. If the sound of records can be emulated by software what stops anyway one from doing that..
If people can't explain how or why vinyl sounds the way it does, how can it be accurately emulated?
By hearing it sound like Vinyl..? :doh:
 

Native_bon

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2008
180
2
18,595
David@FrankHarvey said:
Native_bon said:
David@FrankHarvey said:
If people can't explain how or why vinyl sounds the way it does, how can it be accurately emulated?
By hearing it sound like Vinyl..? :doh:
You obviously don't understand my statement.
Of course I understand your statemnet.. what is there not to understand.. But that was a really silly question to ask in the first place me thinks!!
 

pauln

New member
Feb 26, 2008
137
0
0
David@FrankHarvey said:
If people can't explain how or why vinyl sounds the way it does, how can it be accurately emulated?
Did you read through the thread on the Harbeth forum that was referred to in the first post? Quite lengthy and technical admittedly, however it does include some observations that seek to explain why vinyl sounds the way it does and why some people find it more appealing.

Reading the opinions of others can sometimes be interesting, illuminating and informative.
 

Johnno2

New member
Feb 2, 2009
45
0
0
just been listening to an album that I have on both CD and vinyl , 'nothing like the sun' by Sting , OK its Sting :oops: but this is superb sounding recording

the most noticable thing is the CD is cleaner sounding, but less invloving, the vinyl has a more liquid flowing qaulity with more air, why? distortion ;)

CD player.... Marantz CD7003

Turntable.....Technics SL1300 , AT95e cart CA 651 phono amp
 

Jim-W

New member
Jul 29, 2013
2
0
0
Thanks for your reply to my post, chebby;I would have replied earlier but the internet has been down for much of the day. I liked your photography analogy and I agreed with your point;infact, I agreed with everything you said re the pitfalls of vinyl. Perhaps I overplayed the 'knackered' records aspect:I look for mint copies but, as I'm sure you know, there are times when you have to settle for less.However,I won't but totally EDITED copies.Perhaps the only comment you made that I thought was unfair was the 'romantic' aspect of collecting. I grew up with records ( I hate calling them vinyl) and I guess my love affair started in about 1965 with Beatles singles and the few cheap lp's that I could afford; the point being that I grew up in that era and i was there:I don't need to romanticise it! Anyway, I'm too old to be romantic.

Just as you can't argue with the physics, it's hard to argue with the facts that you present and your reasons for ditching the format. Perfectly logical. If only I could be that logical but there's a massive emotional investment in collecting records and, somewhat romantically, I listen to my heart. Oh and my ears. Like one or two others, I prefer the more organic flow of music on the lp format. Yes, I know its perceived warmth is created by distortion. Yes, I know it's not high-fidelity. Yes, I know I'm a Luddite. Yes, it's high-maintenance and a format that degrades with every play. However, the fact remains that I can't get involved with the rather loud and clinical presentation of music on cd, although God knows I've got enough of them, and, additionally, I think turntables are works of art in their own right. Well, the good ones. I'm afraid there's no escape from the outmoded format for me.

Enough rambling: I'm off to find a head-clearing blast of Sam Rivers or maybe Wayne Shorter or maybe Albert Ayler...I'll be wearing my hairshirt of course.

Regards.
 

Frank Harvey

Well-known member
Jun 27, 2008
567
0
18,890
pauln said:
Reading the opinions of others can sometimes be interesting, illuminating and informative.
True. But it seems that some opinions (and holder's of those opinions) are treated with contempt and treated like they're stupid for having such an opinion. I'm all for free speech on forums, but not when it is to denegrate and belittle those that hold a valid opinion. There will never be a winner regarding debates like this (much like cables etc), and neither should there be. There should be respect, and none of this "you ARE wrong" business.
 

Jim-W

New member
Jul 29, 2013
2
0
0
David@FrankHarvey said:
pauln said:
Reading the opinions of others can sometimes be interesting, illuminating and informative.
True. But it seems that some opinions (and holder's of those opinions) are treated with contempt and treated like they're stupid for having such an opinion. I'm all for free speech on forums, but not when it is to denegrate and belittle those that hold a valid opinion. There will never be a winner regarding debates like this (much like cables etc), and neither should there be. There should be respect, and none of this "you ARE wrong" business.
+1

Right on, David. Nuff respect.
 

CnoEvil

New member
Aug 21, 2009
556
8
0
David@FrankHarvey said:
True. But it seems that some opinions (and holder's of those opinions) are treated with contempt and treated like they're stupid for having such an opinion. I'm all for free speech on forums, but not when it is to denegrate and belittle those that hold a valid opinion. There will never be a winner regarding debates like this (much like cables etc), and neither should there be. There should be respect, and none of this "you ARE wrong" business.
As a concept, it'll never catch on......shame really. :wall:
 

davedotco

New member
Apr 24, 2013
20
0
0
David@FrankHarvey said:
pauln said:
Reading the opinions of others can sometimes be interesting, illuminating and informative.
True. But it seems that some opinions (and holder's of those opinions) are treated with contempt and treated like they're stupid for having such an opinion. I'm all for free speech on forums, but not when it is to denegrate and belittle those that hold a valid opinion. There will never be a winner regarding debates like this (much like cables etc), and neither should there be. There should be respect, and none of this "you ARE wrong" business.
There is nothing personal going on here. People are entitled to their opinions but when those opinions are used in an attempt to argue against reality I see no problem in calling them on that.

If people hold strong views then argue your point, put forward your views and explain how you arrive at them, that is the whole point of a debate.

I am extremely fond of vinyl reproduction and have said so on a number of occasions, I have even explained how the best, most enjoyable reproduction I have heard in a domestic setup came from a small number of vinyl based systems. But I am totally aware that such systems are not accurate and therefore not high fidelity in the true sense of the world.
 

matthewpiano

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2007
388
198
19,070
I think there is accuracy in the hi-fi sense and then accuracy to the spirit of the music, and they are not always the same thing. My vinyl copies of albums by some of my favourite bands who I have seen live several times get me much closer to the live spirit than the CD versions do. They might not be accurate in a scientific sense, but it is the spirit and atmosphere of the music which is of paramount importance IMO.

However, when it comes to classical music I feel differently and find that CD brings me closer to the music.
 

davedotco

New member
Apr 24, 2013
20
0
0
matthewpiano said:
I think there is accuracy in the hi-fi sense and then accuracy to the spirit of the music, and they are not always the same thing. My vinyl copies of albums by some of my favourite bands who I have seen live several times get me much closer to the live spirit than the CD versions do. They might not be accurate in a scientific sense, but it is the spirit and atmosphere of the music which is of paramount importance IMO.

However, when it comes to classical music I feel differently and find that CD brings me closer to the music.
This is a point that I have made on many occasions but I have, as yet failed to find any logical answer. Your suggestion that your preferences are reversed from popular, I assume electric music, to classical material is interesting.

The objective response is to say that the vinyl playback helps smooth off some 'rough edges' that are acceptable in a live environment but not in your living room but that is just a guess, I really have no idea.

Modifying the recording in this way is inherently wrong but it might make the music more acceptable, engaging perhaps, but as you point out, this is not the case with classical material.

How about jazz, with acoustic instruments, or perhaps solo voice, an interesting area for experimentation perhaps.
 

ifor

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2002
71
1
18,545
davedotco said:
People are entitled to their opinions but when those opinions are used in an attempt to argue against reality I see no problem in calling them on that
But! Dave, no disrespect intended, but you are one of the "preachers" that seem to expect us all to accept your views/knowledge/experience as fact/gospel. I'm far from convinced that your version of reality is "reality". I could have addressed this to any number of people here, so please don't take it as a pointed dig at you. My point is that so many present their views as fact, but I believe very few.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY

TRENDING THREADS