Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

[steve_1979]

Nobody has mentioned yet that with vinyl the temptation to listen to the whole album is greater than with either cd or other digital files where it is just to easy to skip tracks..

Skip tracks?

Pah! I just delete the ones I dislike and make my own compilations of all the good tracks that I never want to skip. Try doing that with vinyl.

:dance:

 

[Freddy58]

Nobody has mentioned yet that with vinyl the temptation to listen to the whole album is greater than with either cd or other digital files where it is just to easy to skip tracks..

Skip tracks?

Pah! I just delete the ones I dislike and make my own compilations of all the good tracks that I never want to skip. Try doing that with vinyl.

:dance:

You've just proved my point. You throw away the ones you don't like, and in so doing, miss the chance of experiencing what the artist wanted you to hear/enjoy/perceive

 

[Freddy58]

Nobody has mentioned yet that with vinyl the temptation to listen to the whole album is greater than with either cd or other digital files where it is just to easy to skip tracks..

Skip tracks?

Pah! I just delete the ones I dislike and make my own compilations of all the good tracks that I never want to skip. Try doing that with vinyl.

:dance:

You've just proved my point. You throw away the ones you don't like, and in so doing, miss the chance of experiencing what the artist wanted you to hear/enjoy/perceive

Oh ******, I got my threads mixed up :doh:

 

[steve_1979]

Nobody has mentioned yet that with vinyl the temptation to listen to the whole album is greater than with either cd or other digital files where it is just to easy to skip tracks..

Skip tracks?

Pah! I just delete the ones I dislike and make my own compilations of all the good tracks that I never want to skip. Try doing that with vinyl.

:dance:

You've just proved my point. You throw away the ones you don't like, and in so doing, miss the chance of experiencing what the artist wanted you to hear/enjoy/perceive

Fair point.

But I know what I like and I find that most albums usually have some 'filler' tracks that aren't upto the standard of the rest of the album. When I buy a CD I often listen to the whole album a few times first before deciding which tracks to delete in case some of the songs start to grow on me over time. Occasionally I'll keep the whole album if it's all good and other times I only end up keeping one or two tracks.

I now have almost 4000 tracks in my digital music collection and I like every single one of them. Whenever I play the whole collection on random if a rubbish track comes on it gets deleted.

 

[steve_1979]

Oh ******, I got my threads mixed up :doh:

 

[Freddy58]

Nobody has mentioned yet that with vinyl the temptation to listen to the whole album is greater than with either cd or other digital files where it is just to easy to skip tracks..

Skip tracks?

Pah! I just delete the ones I dislike and make my own compilations of all the good tracks that I never want to skip. Try doing that with vinyl.

:dance:

You've just proved my point. You throw away the ones you don't like, and in so doing, miss the chance of experiencing what the artist wanted you to hear/enjoy/perceive

Fair point.

But I know what I like and I find that most albums usually have some 'filler' tracks that aren't upto the standard of the rest of the album. When I buy a CD I often listen to the whole album a few times first before deciding which tracks to delete in case some of the songs start to grow on me over time. Occasionally I'll keep the whole album if it's all good and other times I only end up keeping one or two tracks.

I now have almost 4000 tracks in my digital music collection and I like every single one of them. Whenever I play the whole collection on random if a rubbish track comes on it gets deleted.

I'll give you an example from probably my all-time favourite album....'Selling England By The Pound' by Genesis. There is a track that precedes 'Cinema Show' which some may say (including me) is the best tune on the album, called 'After The Ordeal'. A pretty weak tune, yet it sets up wonderfully the following track. Another example, 'Tubular Bells', by Mike Oldfield. Most seem to prefer side A, yet I have come to love side B. Things change...

 

[steve_1979]

I'll give you an example from probably my all-time favourite album....'Selling England By The Pound' by Genesis. There is a track that precedes 'Cinema Show' which some may say (including me) is the best tune on the album, called 'After The Ordeal'. A pretty weak tune, yet it sets up wonderfully the following track. Another example, 'Tubular Bells', by Mike Oldfield. Most seem to prefer side A, yet I have come to love side B. Things change...

I know what you mean there. There are some tracks which aren't so great in isolation but when listened to in context of the whole album it just works.

The Fun Lovin' Criminals album 'Come Find Yourself' is like that for me.

 

[Freddy58]

I'll give you an example from probably my all-time favourite album....'Selling England By The Pound' by Genesis. There is a track that precedes 'Cinema Show' which some may say (including me) is the best tune on the album, called 'After The Ordeal'. A pretty weak tune, yet it sets up wonderfully the following track. Another example, 'Tubular Bells', by Mike Oldfield. Most seem to prefer side A, yet I have come to love side B. Things change...

I know what you mean there. There are some tracks which aren't so great in isolation but when listened to in context of the whole album it just works. The Fun Lovin' Criminals album 'Come Find Yourself' is like that for me.

There you go!

 

[Freddy58]

I'll give you an example from probably my all-time favourite album....'Selling England By The Pound' by Genesis. There is a track that precedes 'Cinema Show' which some may say (including me) is the best tune on the album, called 'After The Ordeal'. A pretty weak tune, yet it sets up wonderfully the following track. Another example, 'Tubular Bells', by Mike Oldfield. Most seem to prefer side A, yet I have come to love side B. Things change...

I know what you mean there. There are some tracks which aren't so great in isolation but when listened to in context of the whole album it just works. The Fun Lovin' Criminals album 'Come Find Yourself' is like that for me.

There you go!

Just to add, my son is a 'flicker', flicking through tunes, not even listening through an entire track. I tell him to try an album, and he just listens to bits of a couple of tracks. It frustrates the hell out of me, as he obviously isn't 'experiencing' it...

 

[steve_1979]

Just to add, my son is a 'flicker', flicking through tunes, not even listening through an entire track. I tell him to try an album, and he just listens to bits of a couple of tracks. It frustrates the hell out of me, as he obviously isn't 'experiencing' it...

Although I mostly tend to listen to whole tracks without skipping I admit to mostly listening to music on random because I can't decide what to listen to next and I like hearing the random tracks that probably wouldn't get played otherwise.

My music collection consists of about one third full albums and two thirds part-albums and compilations. I even have one massive compilation called 'Miscellaneous' where I put all the one hit wonders. That one has 564 tracks in it.

 

[Freddy58]

Anyway, back on 'track', so to speak. Vinyl v CD. Personally, I think both formats have their values. Digital is so easy and reliable, but is it as easy to listen to as vinyl? Vinyl can't compete imo on the outright dynamic front. Just try anything from the Telarc range and you'll understand I have no real preference, they're just different...

 

[davedotco]

I would also argue that it's a great second-hand buy, if you know what you're looking for.

In spite of my dislike of the LP12 I do agree with this.

Do they still need to be re-adjusted on a regular basis?

Do you mean the suspension springs? Well, if you do, I reckon the whole thing stiffens up after about a year or so but it can be shorter or longer depending on use. The worst thing is if you take it to a dealer who is situated a good few miles away; the journey home can knacker it up again. Best to do it yourself once you've been shown or get some geezer to come round and do it for you. Engaging the motor, in order to turn the platter, can be temperamental too and occasionally needs adjustment. This is no plug and play turntable.

The fokelore and all round BS that surrounds the LP12 is perpetuated by posts like this.

Setting up an LP12 is not difficult but it is a technique that needs to be learned and practised. The biggest issue is what I think can be termed as 'over tuning', it is possible to make the player sound that little bit better by overtightening and over 'tweaking' pretty much everthing, I have sat and watched a couple of 'set-up' artists debating and tweaking a player by simply adjusting the tightness of the screw that locks the arm cable into the base of the Ittok.

Such indulgent practises are what cause the issue, 'over tuned' players can loose their performance edge very quickly indeed, the performance deteriorates and the owner becomes dissatisfied in a matter of weeks, but a more sensible set up will remain stable for a couple of years, more in some cases.

Servicing a reasonably well used player every 18months to 2 years is a good interval, stylus check, suspension reset and a general checkover need not be expensive but by the mid/late 70's Linn used it as a revenue stream and an opportunity to sell ever more expensive updates to unsuspecting owners.

 

[Freddy58]

Just to add, my son is a 'flicker', flicking through tunes, not even listening through an entire track. I tell him to try an album, and he just listens to bits of a couple of tracks. It frustrates the hell out of me, as he obviously isn't 'experiencing' it...

Although I mostly tend to listen to whole tracks without skipping I admit to mostly listening to music on random because I can't decide what to listen to next and I like hearing the random tracks that probably wouldn't get played otherwise.

My music collection consists of about one third full albums and two thirds part-albums and compilations. I even have one massive compilation called 'Miscellaneous' where I put all the one hit wonders. That one has 564 tracks in it.

Don't get me wrong, I think that choice is a good thing, but I think that the 'art' of experiencing an album is dying. But then, I'm just an old git

 

[MajorFubar]

Record companies moved over to digital for the same reason every company adopts a different method. ie it is cheaper and produces more consistant results.

So basically you do agree that it gives better results. Because cheaper more-consistent results are surely better, right? That's alright then. We agree.

Have you ever seen a 16 track ampex machine?

Yes thanks, and I wasted various hours of my young life setting them up with calibration tapes in order to get the same sound quality from them that I can achieve from a digital recorder right out the box. That said I still have a strong romanticism attached to analogue tape (and even cassette which potentially sounded ten billion times better than most people ever heard it). But I don't kid myself that the SQ has anything to do with it.

a good LP will always sound better

Even when it's been cut from a digital master? Almost every LP cut in the last 25 years or more will have been cut from a digital master. Perhaps you could explain why an LP cut from a digital master will sound better than the CD? But most likely you'll ignore the question because you can't answer it.

 

[davedotco]

Record companies moved over to digital for the same reason every company adopts a different method. ie it is cheaper and produces more consistant results.

So basically you do agree that it gives better results. Because cheaper more-consistent results are surely better, right? That's alright then. We agree.

Have you ever seen a 16 track ampex machine?

Yes thanks, and I wasted various hours of my young life setting them up with calibration tapes in order to get the same sound quality from them that I can achieve from a digital recorder right out the box. That said I still have a strong romanticism attached to analogue tape (and even cassette which potentially sounded ten billion times better than most people ever heard it). But I don't kid myself that the SQ has anything to do with it.

a good LP will always sound better

Even when it's been cut from a digital master? Almost every LP cut in the last 25 years or more will have been cut from a digital master. You've avoided that question from me once already. Perhaps you'd care to explain why an LP cut from a digital master will sound better than the CD. But most likely you'll ignore the question again because you can't answer it.

Major, whilst I agree with everything you say, you are sort of missing the point.

LPs will always sound better because the distortions introduced by the playback system make then sound more musical.

In a nut shell, that is it.

You listen, you decide and make your choice. I know what mine is and why, others feel different. Simple.....!

 

[davedotco]

Just to add, my son is a 'flicker', flicking through tunes, not even listening through an entire track. I tell him to try an album, and he just listens to bits of a couple of tracks. It frustrates the hell out of me, as he obviously isn't 'experiencing' it...

Although I mostly tend to listen to whole tracks without skipping I admit to mostly listening to music on random because I can't decide what to listen to next and I like hearing the random tracks that probably wouldn't get played otherwise.

My music collection consists of about one third full albums and two thirds part-albums and compilations. I even have one massive compilation called 'Miscellaneous' where I put all the one hit wonders. That one has 564 tracks in it.

Don't get me wrong, I think that choice is a good thing, but I think that the 'art' of experiencing an album is dying. But then, I'm just an old git

You can have 'albums' and you have 'LPs', they are different and should be listened to differently.

 

[MajorFubar]

Major, whilst I agree with everything you say, you are sort of missing the point.

LPs will always sound better because the distortions introduced by the playback system make then sound more musical.

In a nut shell, that is it.

You listen, you decide and make your choice. I know what mine is and why, others feel different. Simple.....!

That's sort of conceding though that vinyl enthusiasts prefer vinyl only because its inferior distorted sound is more palatable to their ears and tastes. Which I'm very happy to buy as an explanation, so long as we're also accepting that in real truth that sound is not better. Besides which I don't think our new friend views it quite like that.

 

[Freddy58]

Just to add, my son is a 'flicker', flicking through tunes, not even listening through an entire track. I tell him to try an album, and he just listens to bits of a couple of tracks. It frustrates the hell out of me, as he obviously isn't 'experiencing' it...

Although I mostly tend to listen to whole tracks without skipping I admit to mostly listening to music on random because I can't decide what to listen to next and I like hearing the random tracks that probably wouldn't get played otherwise.

My music collection consists of about one third full albums and two thirds part-albums and compilations. I even have one massive compilation called 'Miscellaneous' where I put all the one hit wonders. That one has 564 tracks in it.

Don't get me wrong, I think that choice is a good thing, but I think that the 'art' of experiencing an album is dying. But then, I'm just an old git

You can have 'albums' and you have 'LPs', they are different and should be listened to differently.

Dave, we're talking at crossed purposes, and maybe I got my threads mixed up :doh: I was talking about how digital (CD) has resulted in a generation of 'flickers', flicking from track to track, and not really experiencing an album in it's entirety.

As I said in an earlier post, both formats have their value, both different...

 

[davedotco]

Major, whilst I agree with everything you say, you are sort of missing the point.

LPs will always sound better because the distortions introduced by the playback system make then sound more musical.

In a nut shell, that is it.

You listen, you decide and make your choice. I know what mine is and why, others feel different. Simple.....!

That's sort of conceding though that vinyl enthusiasts prefer vinyl only because its inferior distorted sound is more palatable to their ears and tastes. Which I'm very happy to buy as an explanation, so long as we're also accepting that in real truth that sound is not better. Besides which I don't think our new friend views it quite like that.

I'm not conceeding anything, what I have said is demonstrably true. In this instance accuracy has nothing to do with it.

Many people have no idea what real music sounds like, I used to regularly get asked to 'sort out' instruments that are too loud or too brash at live gigs, before I had even switched on the PA.....!

 

[davedotco]

Just to add, my son is a 'flicker', flicking through tunes, not even listening through an entire track. I tell him to try an album, and he just listens to bits of a couple of tracks. It frustrates the hell out of me, as he obviously isn't 'experiencing' it...

Although I mostly tend to listen to whole tracks without skipping I admit to mostly listening to music on random because I can't decide what to listen to next and I like hearing the random tracks that probably wouldn't get played otherwise.

My music collection consists of about one third full albums and two thirds part-albums and compilations. I even have one massive compilation called 'Miscellaneous' where I put all the one hit wonders. That one has 564 tracks in it.

Don't get me wrong, I think that choice is a good thing, but I think that the 'art' of experiencing an album is dying. But then, I'm just an old git

You can have 'albums' and you have 'LPs', they are different and should be listened to differently.

Dave, we're talking at crossed purposes, and maybe I got my threads mixed up :doh: I was talking about how digital (CD) has resulted in a generation of 'flickers', flicking from track to track, and not really experiencing an album in it's entirety.

As I said in an earlier post, both formats have their value, both different...

No crossed anything here.

Albums are designed and produced to be listened to in it's entireity, LPs are just collections of songe on a single disc, there is a difference. It makes no difference if they are on CD or vinyl, in this case anyway.

And anyway, 'flicking' as you term it is a product of itunes and iPod, not digital as such.

 

[MajorFubar]

I'm not conceeding anything, what I have said is demonstrably true. In this instance accuracy has nothing to do with it.

Many people have no idea what real music sounds like, I used to regularly get asked to 'sort out' instruments that are too loud or too brash at live gigs,before I had even switched on the PA.....!

Dave tbh I think you and I basically agree on this, I can't disagree with how you argue it, because what you're really taking about is the fact that while vinyl is not as accurate as digital playback, its flaws make the sound more appealing to its devoted band of enthusiasts, and I can't really pick a fault in that or say that they're wrong. How can they be wrong? If they prefer the sound, they prefer he sound. So long as certain people cut the bull and stop arguing that CDs can't possibly be as good because they're sampled and 'not whole'... :roll:

 

[Freddy58]

Just to add, my son is a 'flicker', flicking through tunes, not even listening through an entire track. I tell him to try an album, and he just listens to bits of a couple of tracks. It frustrates the hell out of me, as he obviously isn't 'experiencing' it...

Although I mostly tend to listen to whole tracks without skipping I admit to mostly listening to music on random because I can't decide what to listen to next and I like hearing the random tracks that probably wouldn't get played otherwise.

My music collection consists of about one third full albums and two thirds part-albums and compilations. I even have one massive compilation called 'Miscellaneous' where I put all the one hit wonders. That one has 564 tracks in it.

Don't get me wrong, I think that choice is a good thing, but I think that the 'art' of experiencing an album is dying. But then, I'm just an old git

You can have 'albums' and you have 'LPs', they are different and should be listened to differently.

Dave, we're talking at crossed purposes, and maybe I got my threads mixed up :doh: I was talking about how digital (CD) has resulted in a generation of 'flickers', flicking from track to track, and not really experiencing an album in it's entirety.

As I said in an earlier post, both formats have their value, both different...

No crossed anything here.

Albums are designed and produced to be listened to in it's entireity, LPs are just collections of songe on a single disc, there is a difference. It makes no difference if they are on CD or vinyl, in this case anyway.

And anyway, 'flicking' as you term it is a product of itunes and iPod, not digital as such.

Au contraire mon ami, digital in the form of a CD makes it so much easier to 'flick'. I've done it myself, with CD's that have been loaned to me. The rest of it (iTunes and the like) are merely an extention of that...

 

[davedotco]

I'm not conceeding anything, what I have said is demonstrably true. In this instance accuracy has nothing to do with it.

Many people have no idea what real music sounds like, I used to regularly get asked to 'sort out' instruments that are too loud or too brash at live gigs,before I had even switched on the PA.....!

Dave tbh I think you and I basically agree on this, I can't disagree with how you argue it, because what you're really taking about is the fact that while vinyl is not as accurate as digital playback, its flaws make make the sound more appealing to its devoted band of enthusiasts, and I can't really pick a fault in that. So long as certain people cut the bull and stop arguing that CDs can't possibly be as good because they're sampled and 'not whole'... :roll:

It is not that simple.

There is a fairly interesting debate to be had about what hi-fidelity should actually be hi-fidelity to. The reality is that realistic, accurate playback of a well recorded musical event is impossible in the home, bandwith, dynamic range even simple volume levels are compromised to a degree that suggests that real 'accuracy' is out of the question.

Some people understand this and try to build a system that whilst not 'mechanically' accurate as described above is, in some way 'accurate' to the spirit, the very essence of the music. When a system does that well it is usually described as being 'musical'.

The problem is that what works and makes a recording sound 'musical' to one person may not do so to the next, hence the necessity to audition equipment for youself rather than rely on other peoples views (reviews). Furthermore there is a tendency in some quarters to disregard entirely the requirement for the system to be as 'mechanically' accurate as possible in the search for a more 'musical' system, it is this perception that I have trouble with.

 

[davedotco]

Just to add, my son is a 'flicker', flicking through tunes, not even listening through an entire track. I tell him to try an album, and he just listens to bits of a couple of tracks. It frustrates the hell out of me, as he obviously isn't 'experiencing' it...

Although I mostly tend to listen to whole tracks without skipping I admit to mostly listening to music on random because I can't decide what to listen to next and I like hearing the random tracks that probably wouldn't get played otherwise.

My music collection consists of about one third full albums and two thirds part-albums and compilations. I even have one massive compilation called 'Miscellaneous' where I put all the one hit wonders. That one has 564 tracks in it.

Don't get me wrong, I think that choice is a good thing, but I think that the 'art' of experiencing an album is dying. But then, I'm just an old git

You can have 'albums' and you have 'LPs', they are different and should be listened to differently.

Dave, we're talking at crossed purposes, and maybe I got my threads mixed up :doh: I was talking about how digital (CD) has resulted in a generation of 'flickers', flicking from track to track, and not really experiencing an album in it's entirety.

As I said in an earlier post, both formats have their value, both different...

No crossed anything here.

Albums are designed and produced to be listened to in it's entireity, LPs are just collections of songe on a single disc, there is a difference. It makes no difference if they are on CD or vinyl, in this case anyway.

And anyway, 'flicking' as you term it is a product of itunes and iPod, not digital as such.

Au contraire mon ami, digital in the form of a CD makes it so much easier to 'flick'. I've done it myself, with CD's that have been loaned to me. The rest of it (iTunes and the like) are merely an extention of that...

Nah, not true.

As a young man I would routinely sit on the floor, in front of the record player, and play LP tracks. As one was playing I would get an idea of what I wanted to hear next and line it up, 'flicking' from LP to LP in the process. You can do the same with CDs, it doesn't matter.

What made it almost obligatory was 'Shuffle' play and 'Playlists'. That is what killed the LP as an 'album'.

 

[MajorFubar]

The problem is that what works and makes a recording sound 'musical' to one person may not do so to the next, hence the necessity to audition equipment for youself rather than rely on other peoples views (reviews). Furthermore there is a tendency in some quarters to disregard entirely the requirement for the system to be as 'mechanically' accurate as possible in the search for a more 'musical' system, it is this perception that I have trouble with.

By then of course we're into the realms of personal taste, which of course has nothing to do with accuracy (or it might be, but the two aren't necessarily linked). Again it's difficult to argue against anyone choice of what they feel is a musical-sounding system.