Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

[matt49]

Modern education fails quite spectacularly to give many people even the very basics of mathematics and science.

Such people will not have the faintest idea of what you are talking about.

You may be right that many schools don't teach science well, though my teenage kids are getting an excellent science education, certainly better than I received back in the '70s.

There's another arguably more serious problem. Kids are growing up in a cultural environment which encourages either uncertainty about the status and value of science (it's all relative anyway, innit) or a complete lack of interest in science (cos it's less fun than shopping/facebook/youtube etc etc).

Matt

 

[davedotco]

Modern education fails quite spectacularly to give many people even the very basics of mathematics and science.

Such people will not have the faintest idea of what you are talking about.

You may be right that many schools don't teach science well, though my teenage kids are getting an excellent science education, certainly better than I received back in the '70s.

There's another arguably more serious problem. Kids are growing up in a cultural environment which encourages either uncertainty about the status and value of science (it's all relative anyway, innit) or a complete lack of interest in science (cos it's less fun than shopping/facebook/youtube etc etc).

Matt

Good education in any 'hard' subject tends to be very hit and miss, even within the same school, in some cases standards are plain awful.

Educational standards in these subjects are falling in the uk and this is experienced in all walks of life, basic numeracy is lacking as are the basics for any scientific understanding. Mrs DDC has to deal with this everyday in her work as a GP, patients simply do not understand the basics, even when it comes to such important matters as childhood immunisation.

The internet causes issues too, as in hi-fi, 'known' medical issues and practices are dismissed as opinions and crackpot ideas given equal credance to established medical practice.

Occasionally, in such circumstances she allows her patients to 'go there own way', she calls it 'evolution in action'.

 

[Freddy58]

Anyone going to the footy this weekend?

 

[davedotco]

Anyone going to the footy this weekend?

Nah, we're playing on friday night, so no chance of getting there........ :wall:

 

[Thompsonuxb]

lol... how does a topic like this end up as a thread like this....... crazy.

 

[Kamikaze Bitter]

As I said about 200 posts ago I do agree with the OP that vinyl can sound absolutely lovely. But can I ask a question? I haven't really looked at hifi stuff for a while. What ever happened to the LP12? I used to have a Rega Planar 3 (which played great music). But opinion was quite clear at the time. Rega was for pitiable saddos who couldn't afford a Sondek. There were other choices of course like Thorens or Roksan. But those were for even bigger saddos who could afford a Sondek but wilfully chose to buy something else. Whatever happened to the LP12's pre-eminence? Now a thousand flowers seem to bloom – which I personally think is great.

As a side note I see that even Technics linear tracker decks get an honourable mention now. I replaced one of those with my Rega.

 

[davedotco]

As I said about 200 posts ago I do agree with the OP that vinyl can sound absolutely lovely. But can I ask a question? I haven't really looked at hifi stuff for a while. What ever happened to the LP12? I used to have a Rega Planar 3 (which played great music). But opinion was quite clear at the time. Rega was for pitiable saddos who couldn't afford a Sondek. There were other choices of course like Thorens or Roksan. But those were for even bigger saddos who could afford a Sondek but wilfully chose to buy something else. Whatever happened to the LP12's pre-eminence? Now a thousand flowers seem to bloom – which I personally think is great.

As a side note I see that even Technics linear tracker decks get an honourable mention now. I replaced one of those with my Rega.

I will try and answer that honestly, if I can.

The arrival of the LP12 as a serious product at the end of the 70's came about by a combination of factors. The poor audio quality of the mass market players of the day, the advent of the (relatively inexpensive) entry level player and the emergence of a group of specialist dealers to support the product.

The performance achieved by the LP12 with the silver, Acos (Rega) based arm and inexpensive cartridge demonstrated so well against the opposition that it was very easy to sell, so much so that the front end dominated system of the day actually made real sense. Equally, further up the range the more exotic combinations, starting with the LP12/Grace/Supex, then the original Ittok offered a pretty fine performance at a not outrageous price.

With Linns domination came the extended product range, the higher prices and of course the ridiculous dogma. By the late 80s the magic was largely gone and new player sales were falling, hence Linns massive change of direction in the 90s.

Linn players are, and have been for some time, too expensive, and the know it all attitude of the dealers make them a very unatractive proposition for many buyers. In addition the maintenence required to keep on ald LP12 at it's best is daunting and the skills required are disappearing fast, this makes a secondhand LP12 setup a poor proposition for the modern vinyl entusiast.

 

[andyandrews10]

I have followed this thread with interest and appreciate both points of view but ultimaetly....Drummerman is right! (in all respects). Some CD's sound good, some vinyl sounds good, some CD's sound awful and some vinyl sounds, well just poor but..... IMO a 'good' LP will always outperforme a good CD. The sound is just so much better. And yes, it comes at a cost. A good deck and arm/cartrige will set most people back over a £1000 while a good CD player is half that amount but you can't argue with the results. Play the LP then play the CD (or ripped copy) and compare. LP wins every time. The only thing that comes close is Hi Res downloads. Being something of an obsesive I have Exile in Main Street on original vinyl, on 180gm vinyl, on CD (both original and remastered) and on Blu Ray. Guess which sounds the best? Those who claim that LP's are reproducing distortion are missing the point. All CD's are 'sampled' and the clue is in the name. SAMPLED. ie Not whole! There is always something missing which is not true of analogue.

By way of setting a degree of objectivity, I have something over 46,000 tracks on my hard drive - nearly all ripped from CD's. I also own approx 700 LP's.

 

[davedotco]

I have followed this thread with interest and appreciate both points of view but ultimaetly....Drummerman is right! (in all respects). Some CD's sound good, some vinyl sounds good, some CD's sound awful and some vinyl sounds, well just poor but..... IMO a 'good' LP will always outperforme a good CD. The sound is just so much better. And yes, it comes at a cost. A good deck and arm/cartrige will set most people back over a £1000 while a good CD player is half that amount but you can't argue with the results. Play the LP then play the CD (or ripped copy) and compare. LP wins every time. The only thing that comes close is Hi Res downloads. Being something of an obsesive I have Exile in Main Street on original vinyl, on 180gm vinyl, on CD (both original and remastered) and on Blu Ray. Guess which sounds the best? Those who claim that LP's are reproducing distortion are missing the point. All CD's are 'sampled' and the clue is in the name. SAMPLED. ie Not whole! There is always something missing which is not true of analogue.

By way of setting a degree of objectivity, I have something over 46,000 tracks on my hard drive - nearly all ripped from CD's. I also own approx 700 LP's.

Welcome to the forum...... :wave:

I trust you have your 'tin' helmet and pepper spray to hand, you're going to need them......

If you are going to fight your corner with facts rather than unsubstantiated statements, can I suggest you start by showing where Shannon/Nyquist have got it wrong. Ie your comments on digital playback not being 'whole'.

Hope your maths are up to the challenge.

 

[musical0111]

I have followed this thread with interest and appreciate both points of view but ultimaetly....Drummerman is right! (in all respects). Some CD's sound good, some vinyl sounds good, some CD's sound awful and some vinyl sounds, well just poor but..... IMO a 'good' LP will always outperforme a good CD. The sound is just so much better. And yes, it comes at a cost. A good deck and arm/cartrige will set most people back over a £1000 while a good CD player is half that amount but you can't argue with the results. Play the LP then play the CD (or ripped copy) and compare. LP wins every time. The only thing that comes close is Hi Res downloads. Being something of an obsesive I have Exile in Main Street on original vinyl, on 180gm vinyl, on CD (both original and remastered) and on Blu Ray. Guess which sounds the best? Those who claim that LP's are reproducing distortion are missing the point. All CD's are 'sampled' and the clue is in the name. SAMPLED. ie Not whole! There is always something missing which is not true of analogue.

By way of setting a degree of objectivity, I have something over 46,000 tracks on my hard drive - nearly all ripped from CD's. I also own approx 700 LP's. so do you just collect music with all that music stored and on lps it will take a lifetime to listen to themall

so you have 46,000 tracks and 700 lps it should take a week or two to listen to them can you whistle.

 

[Covenanter]

I have followed this thread with interest and appreciate both points of view but ultimaetly....Drummerman is right! (in all respects). Some CD's sound good, some vinyl sounds good, some CD's sound awful and some vinyl sounds, well just poor but..... IMO a 'good' LP will always outperforme a good CD. The sound is just so much better. And yes, it comes at a cost. A good deck and arm/cartrige will set most people back over a £1000 while a good CD player is half that amount but you can't argue with the results. Play the LP then play the CD (or ripped copy) and compare. LP wins every time. The only thing that comes close is Hi Res downloads. Being something of an obsesive I have Exile in Main Street on original vinyl, on 180gm vinyl, on CD (both original and remastered) and on Blu Ray. Guess which sounds the best? Those who claim that LP's are reproducing distortion are missing the point. All CD's are 'sampled' and the clue is in the name. SAMPLED. ie Not whole! There is always something missing which is not true of analogue.

By way of setting a degree of objectivity, I have something over 46,000 tracks on my hard drive - nearly all ripped from CD's. I also own approx 700 LP's.

Oh dear, oh dear.

He we go again with "I can hear it is better therefore it is better". You will be telling us next that your wife / girl friend / cat also thinks it is better. :rofl:

Chris

PS 46,000 tracks! Why?

 

[Kamikaze Bitter]

Thanks - thats a really helpful explanation. I always thought that Linn tended to be a bit over engineered. So essentailly their hubris knocked the LP12 off its perch in the end. It was clearly the Manchester United of record players!

 

[MajorFubar]

All CD's are 'sampled' and the clue is in the name. SAMPLED. ie Not whole! There is always something missing which is not true of analogue.

If this were true then the 99.999% of professional recording studios which abandoned analoge recording 20 years ago (or more) would still be using tape. Most likely many of the LPs you think sound superior because they're 'whole' came from digital masters to start with, especially if you've bought anything on LP that's been recorded or mastered in the last 25 years.

EDIT: Welcome, by the way.

 

[Covenanter]

I knew people with LP12s in the 1970s and they spend most of their time adjusting them rather than listening to music. I bought a Thorens TD160 because (a) it was better made, (b) you didn't have to fiddle with it and (c) because I thought it sounded better.

Not that you could convince the LP12 fans of that. It was then, and I suspect is now, as much a religious as an aural experience.

Chris

 

[Tear Drop]

Thanks - thats a really helpful explanation. I always thought that Linn tended to be a bit over engineered. So essentailly their hubris knocked the LP12 off its perch in the end. It was clearly the Manchester United of record players!

The fundamental design and implementation of the LP12 have long been left behind by far more capable, well-engineered, better built and all-round superior turntables. Many of those who believed it is a great turntable still do - you'll find plenty of people of internet forums who still claim it is the best turntable that money can buy :rofl:

 

[Kamikaze Bitter]

I auditioned an LP12 and just couldn't convince myself it sounded that much better than my Rega. It did sound good, but the differences were subtle, and I wasn't sure if different was even better. Certainly not £1,000 better.

At the time I had a mate who owned a Thorens TD160 which he played through some old Quad valve amps. He had a fine collection of blues LPs. If my 6 lotto numbers come up I think that's the system I would recreate!

 

[davedotco]

Re LP12.

I think you are all slightly missing the point.

The facts are, pretty much indistputable. The introduction of the inexpensive LP12 setup originaly, with the Acos based Rega OEM arm and a decent mm cartridge was demonstrably better than anything at even roughly comparable price.

If you were a novice, or if you were non technical, this was even more true as the dealers would set the player up for you and install it in your home. Sure some people were fiddlers but they were a tiny minority and the 'cultism' occured a few years later. For the first time ever in hi-fi, non technical, music entusiasts could buy, from a network of good dealers, a genuinly fine sounding system, in the dealership in which I had an interest, people of this type represented the vast majority of our customers.

Whenever possible we played Linn based systems to our customers, demonstrated them against all comers and sold them by the truckload. It was the whole package that made it work, product, dealer expertese, open comparitive demonstrations, installation. I am sure that skilled enthusiasts could get a comparable sound from, say, a TD150 setup, but these customers were not hi-fi enthusiasts, that is the point.

I freely admit that this straightfoward and open approach was quite rapidly overwhelmed by the hype and the BS and for a time the Linn/Naim axis had the UK market at it's mercy. Not a good period.

 

[andyandrews10]

Just to answer and clear up a few points: Record companies moved over to digital for the same reason every company adopts a different method. ie it is cheaper and produces more consistant results. Have you ever seen a 16 track ampex machine? That's tape and studio state of the art circa 1970. I have a home studio that cost (relitively) pennies and yes, it is digital. 30 years ago I put a very small recording facility together and it cost an arm and a leg.

CD, digital et al is sampled. Not guess work. It just is. Look it up. Yes the sampling may be very high and the results very good but it is still SAMPLED. that is. not complete!

And finally, respect to Drummerman. CD can sound good - but a good LP will always sound better

(ducking to avoid pepper spray and orderd a tin hat on ebay)

 

[Jim-W]

Whilst agreeing with most, if not all, of the current negativity surrounding the LP12, there needs to be some balance and I'm not talking about the complicated suspension system. Yes, they were over-hyped by both dealers and owners: the LP12 is not the best turntable in the world; it is not a neutral sounding tt and has some bass bloom inherent in the design. It's upgrade path is ridiculously and prohibitively expensive and it is no longer the epitome of cool, although I can vouch for the fact that it remains a subject of admiration when people clock it and, more importantly, listen to it.

However, and this is where I think balance is lacking, even a modestly refurbished and upraded LP12 sounds very convincing and utterly absorbing as a purveyor of music. It is nowhere near as fiddly as those who don't own one are lead to believe; it's just a case of adjusting the suspension which, I agree, is a skilled job, but it's not that difficult:I mean, I can do it for God's sake. Once set up with a decent arm and cartridge, the LP12 produces a weighty, deep and rich sound that, in my opinion, is at least the equal of any Rega tt; I won't say better because it's a different presentation but I could certainly make that case if pushed. I would also argue that it's a great second-hand buy, if you know what you're looking for. The Linn Axis is another excellent Linn turntable that easily competes with high end Rega decks, providing the psu caps aren't fried of course.

The balance?Ok, it's been ridiculously over-hyped but it's a well-engineered turntable that produceds an involving and engaging presentation of vinyl lp's; it's not the outmoded monster that some would suggest. I've got Linns and Regas and I like them both. Equally.

 

[pauln]

CD can sound good - but a good LP will always sound better

In your opinion?

You state your subjective opinion as if it were fact, it isn't "the truth" and many here and elsewhere will disagree with you for the reasons that have been repeated many, many times.

 

[Covenanter]

Just to answer and clear up a few points: Record companies moved over to digital for the same reason every company adopts a different method. ie it is cheaper and produces more consistant results. Have you ever seen a 16 track ampex machine? That's tape and studio state of the art circa 1970. I have a home studio that cost (relitively) pennies and yes, it is digital. 30 years ago I put a very small recording facility together and it cost an arm and a leg.

CD, digital et al is sampled. Not guess work. It just is. Look it up. Yes the sampling may be very high and the results very good but it is still SAMPLED. that is. not complete!

And finally, respect to Drummerman. CD can sound good - but a good LP will always sound better

(ducking to avoid pepper spray and orderd a tin hat on ebay)

Please go away and read up on Shannon-Nyquist and then you will see that nothing is lost by sampling.

Chris

 

[Tear Drop]

I would also argue that it's a great second-hand buy, if you know what you're looking for.

In spite of my dislike of the LP12 I do agree with this.

Do they still need to be re-adjusted on a regular basis?

 

[cockneylol]

I listen to both formats.

I enjoy both formats.

One is not better than the other, they are just different.

 

[musical0111]

I listen to both formats.

I enjoy both formats.

One is not better than the other, they are just different.

i also agree with you some cd is better than vinyl and some vinyl sounds better each to there own.

 

[Jim-W]

I would also argue that it's a great second-hand buy, if you know what you're looking for.

In spite of my dislike of the LP12 I do agree with this.

Do they still need to be re-adjusted on a regular basis?

Do you mean the suspension springs? Well, if you do, I reckon the whole thing stiffens up after about a year or so but it can be shorter or longer depending on use. The worst thing is if you take it to a dealer who is situated a good few miles away; the journey home can knacker it up again. Best to do it yourself once you've been shown or get some geezer to come round and do it for you. Engaging the motor, in order to turn the platter, can be temperamental too and occasionally needs adjustment. This is no plug and play turntable.