Bitter truth about HiFi home systems

[steve_1979]

Just get an Active Dishwasher if you want the best performance. *dirol*

Nah pure class A dishwashers are the way forward. They're not the most economical but they do give a unique sparkle to the clean that you can't get with an active dishwasher.

Maybe I'll try a valve hybrid one next time round. *crazy*

 

[Blacksabbath25]

You have the basic rules when choosing a new hifi but I would not call it a golden rule I mean some people go by the specifications only when choosing a amplifier or speakers I do a bit of both but mainly what I hear .

some people just walk into a shop say to the sales person what they are after and next they are walking out the door with a box in there hands

some people are not fussed as long as they have music

some people just like collecting boxes ( that's me *smile* ) and the love of music ( that's me *smile* ) and to get the closest you can get to purification that you can afford ( that's me and probably most of the regular people who come on this site .

And do not forget bad recordings there lots which does not help

and the fact that people like us are a small minority that care about what they listen too

 

[tino]

Nah pure class A dishwashers are the way forward.

Nah ... Class A+++ semi-integrated, 38dB noise floor, floor standing .... *wink*

 

[steve_1979]

Nah ... Class A+++ semi-integrated, 38dB noise floor, floor standing .... *wink*

Floorstanders have more internal volume but small bookshelf dishwashers are the best.

Mounted on sturdy stands at least two feet away from the back wall of course. *biggrin*

 

[stereoman]

and the fact that people like us are a small minority that care about what they listen too

U-N-F-O-R-T-U-N-A-T-E-L-Y. I just wish more people were audiophiles. Music matters as well as the sound.

 

[lindsayt]

Best to just put things into perspective. When compared to (decent) live music, all hi-fi reproduction is a compromise. None of us have tried everything, so in that sense none of us know what we're missing!

The best we can do is to:

1) Choose well - Find the compromise(s) we can live with.

2) Set up well - Don't add compromises.

3) When it sounds good, be content - Easier said than done eh?

For one person with their guitar type concerts, where the vocals and guitar are played through a small PA system, a good hi-fi system will be sonically indistinguishable from a live performance when playing a good recording of that performance.

 

[Vladimir]

I wash by hand.

 

[nopiano]

I wash by hand.

How that word resonates!

 

[CnoEvil]

Just get an Active Dishwasher if you want the best performance. *dirol*

Nah pure class A dishwashers are the way forward. They're not the most economical but they do give a unique sparkle to the clean that you can't get with an active dishwasher.

Maybe I'll try a valve hybrid one next time round. *crazy*

You are out of date, my friend. I have one of the latest Active Dishwasherettes and it is much better than the biggest, most expensivist, proper Dishwashers from Miele. *blum3*

 

[paulkebab]

is that people don't know what they want their system to sound like, or what it could sound like. I think what hi-fi dealers should do is advise people to bring some of their favourite music and then put them through a listening test. Run a 'flat' output then a V, then inverse V shaped outputs just to find out what the customer likes and which way their ears are tuned, this should lay the foundation for a system and a hobby they will actually enjoy with the minimum outlay (once a price point has been found). Explain the differences between flat, bright, forward and bassy and let them hear and feel the differences. Even after this, frustration could still creep in at home due to room sonics etc but at least the basics would be sorted. Speakers need x amount of room to work regardless of sonics, a lot of people think they can just shoe-horn some big floorstanders in a corner and they'll sound wonderful, we know different. A good dealer will account and advise for that, however they can't stop the customer buying what he wants or maybe a good dealer should refuse to sell something that won't work in a certain environment? Would this improve our perceived hobby and reduce the number of unhappy listeners? I would like to think so.

 

[macdiddy]

no hifi dealer is going to refuse to sell a product to customer just because it may be used in the wrong environment, their business wouldn't last very long.

*fool*

 

[davidf]

IMO. The bitter truth, is in fact to do with the way people buy HiFi systems. Classic errors include:

- Star chasing and buying hifi like you would a dishwasher.

- Ignoring (or not being aware of) lesser known brands, which are often better....this means doing a lot of research.

- Not using knowledgeable specialist dealers, but large chains....or worse....internet box shifters.

- Not taking the time to listen to enough brands and different designs (eg. Valves vs Hybrid vs AB vs A vs D; or Metal vs Silk Dome; CD vs Streamer vs Vinyl).

- Getting fixated on measurements to the exclusion of musical enjoyment.

- Lack of understanding on how room acoustics effect the sound and the importance of correct speaker set up.

Putting together a system for playing music in a way that you love, is as individual and subjective as buying art, chosing clothes, or the colours you paint your rooms. Unless you are lucky, this requires a lot of effort....and the more you are spending, the more effort you should put in.

People are often lazy and want someone to tell them what is best....and when they come on here, are surprised to find the range of conflicting advice/opinion that they get.

Spot on Cno. In fact, I stopped reading this thread at your post.

Too many people nowadays want something for nothing, and buy based on price. Product A and B are both £1000, but product B is available at a dealer (who they've never used at the other end of the country) for half price. That story always ends up in one outcome, even if the half price model in no way suits their own system/room/preference etc. This is why more and more people are dissatisfied with their systems - they're not spending time listening to the alternatives/options, they're just buying based on price. It's one reason why so many dealers have closed down over the past 10-20 years. If people really don't want service, and also not interested in my primary aim, then I won't last either, but I'm not going to compromise on what I want to do. And those using internet boxshifters may as well be buying blind, because they're not interested in what you're buying as long as you buy something.

 

[Gray]

Thanks for picking up on that oversight of mine. (I think you got the point though)

Indistinguishable you're right. Certainly not identical, but indistinguishable and that's no doubt good enough for all those that listen to the type of music you suggest.

 

[Oldphrt]

Just get an Active Dishwasher if you want the best performance. *dirol*

Nah pure class A dishwashers are the way forward. They're not the most economical but they do give a unique sparkle to the clean that you can't get with an active dishwasher.

Maybe I'll try a valve hybrid one next time round. *crazy*

You are out of date, my friend. I have one of the latest Active Dishwasherettes and it is much better than the biggest, most expensivist, proper Dishwashers from Miele. *blum3*

The best dishwasher we had was a Philips. Noisy but immensely powerful. So powerful in fact that it flipped a casserole dish over and broke it. These days it's a Bosch. Quiet and washes perfectly. You can't beat perfectly.

 

[Oldphrt]

IMO. The bitter truth, is in fact to do with the way people buy HiFi systems. Classic errors include:

- Star chasing and buying hifi like you would a dishwasher.

- Ignoring (or not being aware of) lesser known brands, which are often better....this means doing a lot of research.

- Not using knowledgeable specialist dealers, but large chains....or worse....internet box shifters.

- Not taking the time to listen to enough brands and different designs (eg. Valves vs Hybrid vs AB vs A vs D; or Metal vs Silk Dome; CD vs Streamer vs Vinyl).

- Getting fixated on measurements to the exclusion of musical enjoyment.

- Lack of understanding on how room acoustics effect the sound and the importance of correct speaker set up.

Putting together a system for playing music in a way that you love, is as individual and subjective as buying art, chosing clothes, or the colours you paint your rooms. Unless you are lucky, this requires a lot of effort....and the more you are spending, the more effort you should put in.

People are often lazy and want someone to tell them what is best....and when they come on here, are surprised to find the range of conflicting advice/opinion that they get.

Spot on Cno. In fact, I stopped reading this thread at your post.

Too many people nowadays want something for nothing, and buy based on price. Product A and B are both £1000, but product B is available at a dealer (who they've never used at the other end of the country) for half price. That story always ends up in one outcome, even if the half price model in no way suits their own system/room/preference etc. This is why more and more people are dissatisfied with their systems - they're not spending time listening to the alternatives/options, they're just buying based on price. It's one reason why so many dealers have closed down over the past 10-20 years. If people really don't want service, and also not interested in my primary aim, then I won't last either, but I'm not going to compromise on what I want to do. And those using internet boxshifters may as well be buying blind, because they're not interested in what you're buying as long as you buy something.

I have tried auditioning in a shop once, for a pair of speakers. Bought some KEFs, I forget the model. They sounded great in the shop, but in the room the bass was overpowering and overblown. Took them back, got Celestions instead. Only got rid because the wife said they were too big. I dont think auditioning in a shop is any help.

 

[Electro]

Best to just put things into perspective. When compared to (decent) live music, all hi-fi reproduction is a compromise. None of us have tried everything, so in that sense none of us know what we're missing!

The best we can do is to:

1) Choose well - Find the compromise(s) we can live with.

2) Set up well - Don't add compromises.

3) When it sounds good, be content - Easier said than done eh?

For one person with their guitar type concerts, where the vocals and guitar are played through a small PA system, a good hi-fi system will be sonically indistinguishable from a live performance when playing a good recording of that performance.

I agree.*smile*

 

[CnoEvil]

I dont think auditioning in a shop is any help.

IME. It is helpful for getting a general sense of what a system sounds like and then putting together a shortlist to try at home.

If you have a very small, or acoustically difficult room, a good dealer should help with putting together a system that is more likely to work...and then, if needed, help install it.

Any time I have purchased components, they have sounded better in my room (which is quite big), than they did at the dealer....but the basic sound characteristic (mid/treble) was the same.

 

[davidf]

I have tried auditioning in a shop once, for a pair of speakers. Bought some KEFs, I forget the model. They sounded great in the shop, but in the room the bass was overpowering and overblown. Took them back, got Celestions instead. Only got rid because the wife said they were too big. I dont think auditioning in a shop is any help.

Auditioning in a store IS of help. Whilst the room in which you listen may not be representative of your own listening space, it allows anyone to compare models in the same room - this allows the user to be able to get a good idea of how the various products compare to each other and dismiss any that just aren't up to scratch. The first choice (or two) can then be taken home and tested in your listening space. If for any reason it doesn't suit, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out which one of the group would be more suitable.

 

[steve_1979]

Star chasing and buying hifi like you would a dishwasher.

When I buy a dishwasher I always like to ask for advice on forums first so that I can draw up a short list of possible options. Then I want to try out several different models in at least a couple of different shops so that I can narrow it down to the best two or three dishwashers in my price range. Next I take those two or three dishwashers home to see how they perform in my my own kitchen and to make sure they have a good synergy with my pots an pans. Finally once I've made a purchase I like to try a few different mains cables to see what effect they have on the cleaning performance. This is part is preferably done while wearing a blindfold (or so I'm told).

Isn't this the way that everyone buys a washing machine? Or am I doing something wrong?

 

[Gaz37]

Whilst I agree that set up & positioning is important, it's fair to point out that most people have to compromise whether with their other half or due to available space.

My speakers are closer to the side walls than is ideal but this is sadly unavoidable as moving them towards the centre of the room would obstruct the patio doors. If Mrs Gaz had her way they would be on their sides, with no stands & behind the sofa.

 

[Superaintit]

I agree that auditioning is of great help to get an idea of what the speakers are capable of. On the other hand I find that hifi doesn't offer much value for money.

Imo the traditional hifi /speaker manafacturers should deliver better for a lower price. If professional speaker manufacturers and computer companies can do that, then what's going on with the hifi industry?

Is it the numbers they sell or are they just not getting what their customers want?

 

[Gaz37]

I agree that auditioning is of great help to get an idea of what the speakers are capable of. On the other hand I find that hifi doesn't offer much value for money.

Imo the traditional hifi /speaker manafacturers should deliver better for a lower price. If professional speaker manufacturers and computer companies can do that, then what's going on with the hifi industry?

Is it the numbers they sell or are they just not getting what their customers want?

They're making lots of money why should they change anything?

 

[stereoman]

I agree that auditioning is of great help to get an idea of what the speakers are capable of. On the other hand I find that hifi doesn't offer much value for money.

Imo the traditional hifi /speaker manafacturers should deliver better for a lower price. If professional speaker manufacturers and computer companies can do that, then what's going on with the hifi industry?

Is it the numbers they sell or are they just not getting what their customers want?

They're making lots of money why should they change anything?

If they do not change it on purpose (i.e. offer better performance for lower money or in general better performance ) then they are the ones who contribute to low quality development and stop technological progress. In terms of personal ambition they probably have zero and do not care about good sound. I personally am really glad when they are exposed in some HiFi tests so the customers can have knowledge that these products can be this and this. On the other hand - a very important thing - we need to mind that in order to produce good quality components with great specifications plus musicality the manufacturers or managing directors need to be themselves almost good musicians or at least great sound engineers. I believe only then you can trust the company and their products. I remember for example the other day I saw an interview from Lee Taylor and Mallory Nicholls saying that they had been BBC sound engineers before they started audio company. Purely one can hear it by listetning to their products how advanced they are. I believe this also happens with other producers - if they are much involved in sound and care about quality than the products should be rather riskproof to purchase. SHOULD.

 

[Gaz37]

Could charge some sucker several thousand pounds for a hundred pounds worth of components would you change anything? Certainly not if that sucker insisted it sounds better than cheaper versions.
In the immortal words of Mr Knopfler "money for nothing"

 

[Gaz37]

Just get an Active Dishwasher if you want the best performance. *dirol*

Nah pure class A dishwashers are the way forward. They're not the most economical but they do give a unique sparkle to the clean that you can't get with an active dishwasher.

Maybe I'll try a valve hybrid one next time round. *crazy*

You are out of date, my friend. I have one of the latest Active Dishwasherettes and it is much better than the biggest, most expensivist, proper Dishwashers from Miele. *blum3*

I recently changed the power cable on my dishwasher and the difference was remarkable, deeper blacks, crisper brighter whites and far more vivid colours, even my wife noticed the improvement.
All you naysayers can quote scientific facts that a power cable can't improve washing but I saw the difference and so did my wife