The Devialet thread

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matt49

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Well, I got the Cremonas out of storage today, and this evening I’ve been revisiting the gorgeous Sonus faber sound. They really are lovely speakers. After the Martin Logans there’s a simplicity about them that bewitches. The bits of the music that matter — voice, piano, violin, guitar — are presented in a delicate and pure manner. I’ve also had SAM on. TBH I’ve not done any comparisons of them with SAM and without: too complicated for this evening, as I’ve had to write a lecture for tomorrow. Certainly SAM doesn’t seem to do any harm. I’ll look into this more systematically on Thursday.

Lovely speakers indeed.

But when all’s said and done, a pair of standmounts, no matter how melodious their presentation, just doesn’t come anywhere near the ability of the Martin Logans to paint a huge canvass across the room. With studio-recorded rock/pop the SFs do pretty well. But once you put on some serious classical stuff, there’s simply no competition. The Martin Logans (n.b. without SAM) are miles ahead.

The SFs do easy listening; the MLs put you in the front row of the concert.

I’m still trying to get the Sanders Magtech power amp for a home demo. The UK dealer is about as much use as a vicar at a black mass. I HOPE the Magtech will arrive on Thursday, which will give me a day of toe-to-toe Magtech vs Dev400 action.

*bomb*

Matt
 

matt49

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Thoughts about the 400 so far.

With the Montis there's an added solidity and richness to the sound, slightly better dynamics, and the top end is perhaps fractionally smoother. But I wouldn't want to have to identify the last of these in a blind test: it may not be there at all. Overall the presentation is satisfying and exciting. Classical recordings sound utterly gorgeous, from solo piano, through chamber stuff up to opera and huge spine-tingling slabs of Mahler. Wonderful!

The hitch is the cost. Upgrading to a 400 will cost 30% of the RRP of my whole system (and about 40% of what it cost me). I'm convinced it is an upgrade; I'm just not convinced it makes financial sense, especially as it'll mean I'll have to buy a new amp for the Sonus fabers.

According to the delivery tracking, the Magtech has actually left the dealer's up in Scotland and will arrive tomorrow.

More to follow ...

*dirol*
 

matt49

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After two weeks of frustration trying to get a demo Magtech shipped down from Scotland, it finally arrived today. The dealer had offered a series of excuses for not sending the thing -- couldn't find the box, too busy, internet went down -- and actually getting answers out of him was an ordeal. But now it's here.

In the flesh it's pretty unprepossessing: a big plain plack box with the maker's name in blue LED. Well, it's only a power amp, I guess. As for the sound, I'm going to keep my cards close to my chest until I've had a proper listen. However, initial impressions are ...

*yahoo*

Matt
 

matt49

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This is how it seems now.

Driven by the D400 the Martin Logans sound better in the mid-range and HF than any dynamic speakers I’ve heard, though the top end sometimes feels like it needs taming.

Driven by the Magtech the MLs still have the amazing mid-range and HF presence, but there’s no unruliness at the top end and the bottom end is deep and rich. Imaging in three dimensions is better. The system can be cranked right up with no problems.

This is how it seems now.

Long session tomorrow.
 

Infiniteloop

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Been using my new DVLA 200 via USB for the past couple of weeks and it's been massively satisfying. But I got an itch and decided to try streaming from my Mac Mini using DVLA Air. I wasn't expecting much, but Oh boy was I wrong. The sound is now even better, clearer, bigger and deeper.

I wasn't a great fan of WiFi streaming before this, preferring a wired connection, but now I see what all the fuss is about.

Ethernet next.... (just because).

This thing just gets better and better!
 

matt49

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DocG said:
Huh? So Roger Sanders does know a thing or two about ESLs?*shok*

yes, ESLs and fried chicken.

Infiniteloop said:
Been using my new DVLA 200 via USB for the past couple of weeks and it's been massively satisfying. But I got an itch and decided to try streaming from my Mac Mini using DVLA Air. I wasn't expecting much, but Oh boy was I wrong. The sound is now even better, clearer, bigger and deeper.

I wasn't a great fan of WiFi streaming before this, preferring a wired connection, but now I see what all the fuss is about.

Ethernet next.... (just because).

This thing just gets better and better!

Good news.

A word of warming about Ethernet: some people, mainly running Windows, but also on the Mac platform, have experienced loud bursts of white noise

Matt
 

matt49

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Are you sitting comfortably? Then I’ll begin.

Over the last few months I’ve felt a niggling sense of unease, which I’ve been reluctant to face up to squarely. Something was wrong with my main system (ML Montis and D200). There was too much HF energy flying around, and there was a bit of a hole in the lower midrange. I’d become aware of an imbalance in the upper octaves of the human voice and violins in particular; the effect was a bit screechy. Many classical recordings still sounded excellent, but brighter recordings (you know who you are, Naxos!) required the application of the treble controls in the Dev, which, excellent though they are, didn’t really solve the problem.

I was convinced that the individual components must be blameless. They must be. I’d heard the Dev with so many speakers. Audiovector, Dali, Vivid, Harbeth, Sonus faber, PMC, B&W: you name it, I’d heard it driven beautifully by a Dev. As for the MLs, the first time I heard them in a proper demo (as opposed to drive-by hearings at a show) the sound had blown me away: driven by a D200. And once the Montis joined the Dev in my system back in June, I loved the pairing for some time after.

But something had gone wrong; something needed to be fixed.

I tried to persuade myself that some room treatment would solve the problem: some soft furnishings to tame the HF reflections perhaps. Everything was, in any case, on hold until the house move (in mid-October), and even then it would be a couple of months until the living room had the right furniture in it. Keep calm and carry on.

But then there was the spectre of the John Atkinson Stereophile review of the D-Premier, often referenced in discussions of Dev on the interwebs. According to JA, the D-Premier might well have problems dealing with the exceptionally low impedance of ESLs at high frequencies. Even if the Dev didn’t overheat and shut down (there were some reports of this, though the new Dev models’ upgraded PSU solved the shutdown problem), there was still the prospect of the Dev's clipping protection circuits switching in, resulting in a nasty hardness at the top end.

Life is complicated. I have two pairs of speakers (both ex-demo models, so not quite as extravagant as it might seem): the ML Montis and the SF Cremona Auditor Ms. In the new house the SFs would be in my study and the MLs would be downstairs in the big living room. That seemed like a great plan. But what about amps? To cut a long story short, it came down to three options:

1. Montis with D200 and Cremonas with a new amp

2. Montis with D400 and Cremonas with a new amp

3. Montis with a new amp and Cremonas with D200

No. 1 was already eliminated (see above). No. 2 might work but would involve significant extra cost (£5K for the D200 “companion” and the cost of a new amp for the SFs). No. 3 was looking good, but could any amp drive the MLs better? A valve amp was out of the question: the family will use this system, and they can’t be relied on to turn things off!

Enter the Sanders Magtech yesterday, after a long and frustrating wait for the UK Sanders dealer to supply a demo model. I also borrowed a 200 “companion” from the ever-helpful Saj at Audio Venue in Ealing.

I was ready for a shoot-out.
 

matt49

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I've been busy! Lots of listening. Also the main system has now moved downstairs to the living room.

Also I wrote this.

The Sanders Magtech is a Class A/B power amp designed specifically to drive electrostatic speakers. Rumour has it that Martin Logan and Magnepan use the Magtech for their show demos, though they like to keep it hidden in case people find out about Sanders, who manufactures his own excellent ESL speakers!

It has 20 output transformers to supply the voltage that ESLs crave. (The theory behind the design is documented in this unusually informative white paper.) It also has an innovative regulated power supply which means it can produce massive power whilst barely getting warm. It produces 500W/channel into 8 ohms, compared to the D400s 400WPC into 6 ohms. It nearly doubles its power as impedance halves: 900WPC into 4 ohms. It’s a beast.

It looks like one too. No Parisian chic here. Just a solid, boring black box. Slotting the Magtech into my system felt like returning to a bygone era. The manual warns of a switch-on thump from poorly designed preamps: so always switch the preamp on first! And if you want to switch out the preamp/DAC and change over the speaker cables, don’t even think about doing so until at least two minutes after you’ve turned the Magtech off. That electricity sure hangs around a while.

For the shoot-out I ran three set-ups as follows:

1. Sonos Connect (W4S mod) > D400 > ML Montis

2. Sonos Connect (W4S mod) > D400 (pre-outs) > Magtech > ML Montis

3. Sonos Connect (W4S mod) > Audiolab M-DAC (“Toy” mod) > Magtech > ML Montis

In the context of the whole, the difference between Nos 2. and 3. was negligible.

This is all about power, the right kind of power. I expected the Magtech to sound big and a bit crude. Just a bigger version of the Montis sound. How wrong I was!

Hearing ESLs sing properly is a kind of epiphany. (It is nearly Christmas, guys!) The first shock is the delicacy. Devialet owners know all about delicacy. The swift gliding of notes into and out of consciousness; the contrast of sound and silence. Driven by the Magtech, the Montis produce an ethereal sound. Timbres are perfectly defined. Listening to choral works is a revelation: the massed voices resolve into individuals, each identifiable by its different tone and timbre. Instruments become more real, more present. The same trick happens with orchestral music: layer upon layer of sweet and easily distinguishable timbre. And at the same time as the elements are resolved, the music becomes easier to follow. Musical phrases ebb and flow. Again and again I found the word “lyrical” coming to mind. I know some people have been put off MLs by what they experienced as a screechy top end at high volumes: trust me, the top end of the Montis, driven by the Magtech, is liquid honey.

Phrasing also depends on dynamics. Here the Magtech was obviously a couple of notches above the D400. Proper dynamics create bounce and drama. The Magtech makes a great job of quiet and delicate passages, and then a sudden orchestral crescendo hits you in a huge wave. Some people think ESLs don’t do loud. Sorry, they do. Really loud. Crushingly loud. The full 500W. And no audible distortion.

The package is completed by a remarkably vivid three-dimensional soundstage. This was always an acknowledged strength of Martin Logans. Americans do love their soundstage to be tall and deep. Again it’s orchestral music that reveals the genius of the ML line-source sound. (I’ve never really understood the preference some people have for point-source speakers.) The height of the soundstage somehow adds to the sense of depth. Violins and cellos down at the front. Woodwind and brass further back. Timpany right at the rear. Hearing becomes vision. With eyes closed you can see exactly how an orchestra is configured.

Much of this the D400 also does well. And if truth be told, the Dev has an energy and speed that maybe the Magtech doesn’t quite match. Maybe. It’s just that the Magtech has stolen the Dev’s best lines; where you expect the Dev to be supreme – transparency, delicacy, bass oomph – the Magtech is actually better.

I really wasn’t expecting this £3.5K power amp to be so darned good. The past two days have been nothing short of shocking. I’ve been smiling ear to ear. And looking forward to many hours of joy.

There's a third episode, if you can bear it.

*drinks*

Matt
 

DocG

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Hi Matt, it looks like you found the amplifier to properly drive those MLs! What surprised me, is the UK price of the Magtech: it costs $5500 factory direct in the US (and that price probably doesn't include taxes), and then 'only' £3500 in the UK!

Eagerly waiting for "Episode 3, the Return of the Devialet". (*)

Then again, what would this amp sound like with Mr. Sanders' own speakers?*diablo*

(*) EDIT: or "Sanders is Dead. The Revenge of the Interior Designer"
 

matt49

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DocG said:
Hi Matt, it looks like you found the amplifier to properly drive those MLs! What surprised me, is the UK price of the Magtech: it costs $5500 factory direct in the US (and that price probably doesn't include taxes), and then 'only' £3500 in the UK!

Eagerly waiting for "Episode 3, the Return of the Devialet". (*)

Then again, what would this amp sound like with Mr. Sanders' own speakers?*diablo*

(*) EDIT: or "Sanders is Dead. The Revenge of the Interior Designer"

Yes, the pricing does seem quite keen. The dealer (in Scotland) did stress to me that his margins were low. Then again, it would be putting it mildly to say he's not the slickest or most professional hi-fi dealer in the world.

I'm going to spend another week pondering the Magtech. A further decision will be whether to buy the dealer's demo model, which is in excellent condition and comes with a £500 discount off the new price, or to order a brand new one.

One other interesting aspect of this new system is that it brings the M-DAC into play. In the New Year the M-DAC will be heading back to the Czech Rep for a further upgrade. John Westlake's aim is to turn the M-DAC into a fully featured audio toolbox. These are the features of the upgrade:

Dual ES9018 Sabre32 DACs, one dedicated chip per channel for true dual mono operation.

Brand new discrete Class A analog stage design.

Redesigned on-board power supply circuitry guaranteeing optimal performance using the stock AC adaptor.

High Speed USB 2.0 controller for asynchronous USB Audio Class 2.0 with 32 bit resolution and up to 768 kHz sampling rates. Driverless operation under MacOS X and Linux as well as Windows with UAC 1.0 fallback (up to 96 kHz). Optional open-source ASIO driver for Windows to support UAC 2.0 capabilities.

DSD 64Fs supported via USB as well as S/PDIF with DSD 128Fs and higher available via USB (DoD standard).

FPGA on board, opening the doors to limitless customization and further improvements delivered via software updates. Ability to bypass all internal processing in the Sabre32 and replace it with custom LakeWest developments down to the noise shaper.

RAM buffer for memory play without ASRC for S/PDIF sources. Asynchronous USB and transport ClockLock interface ASRC free playback or optionally S/PDIF playback with ASRC without memory buffer induced latencies.

Passive AV bypass unbalanced inputs allowing coexistence of analog preamplifier / surround processor with the DAC’s own digital preamplifier.

4W XLR Female on the rear panel for balanced headphone connection.

Made in EU, each unit tested and qualified personally by JW

The "road map" includes DSP room correction. IIRC the cost of the upgrade is £200 plus components at cost. The upgraded M-DAC will be a strong contender to serve as DAC (and even preamp) in the main system.

*crazy*

Matt
 

CnoEvil

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matt49 said:
Over the last few months I’ve felt a niggling sense of unease, which I’ve been reluctant to face up to squarely. Something was wrong with my main system (ML Montis and D200). There was too much HF energy flying around, and there was a bit of a hole in the lower midrange. I’d become aware of an imbalance in the upper octaves of the human voice and violins in particular; the effect was a bit screechy. Many classical recordings still sounded excellent, but brighter recordings (you know who you are, Naxos!) required the application of the treble controls in the Dev, which, excellent though they are, didn’t really solve the problem.

FWIW. I think you are now heading in a better direction. As you are probably aware, I always had my suspicions that Devialet and MLs would be a little fatiguing and that the SFs were likely to be a better match.

IME. You should try your best Power Cord on the Magtech, as I have found the biggest improvement is often heard on more powerful AB amps (I know, I know!).
 

steve_1979

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CnoEvil said:
IME. You should try your best Power Cord on the Magtech, as I have found the biggest improvement is often heard on more powerful AB amps (I know, I know!).

It's a full moon at the moment Cno. You're running a risk posting a comment like that tonight. *bomb*

Very interesting thread BTW Matt. :)
 

CnoEvil

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steve_1979 said:
CnoEvil said:
IME. You should try your best Power Cord on the Magtech, as I have found the biggest improvement is often heard on more powerful AB amps (I know, I know!).

It's a full moon at the moment Cno. You're running a risk posting a comment like that tonight. *bomb*

Very interesting thread BTW Matt. :)

I will be too busy howling at the moon to notice. *crazy*
 

matt49

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CnoEvil said:
FWIW. I think you are now heading in a better direction. As you are probably aware, I always had my suspicions that Devialet and MLs would be a little fatiguing and that the SFs were likely to be a better match.

IME. You should try your best Power Cord on the Magtech, as I have found the biggest improvement is often heard on more powerful AB amps (I know, I know!).

The interesting question (for me) is the technical one of why the Dev doesn't drive the MLs as well as it drives, say, a pair of Wilsons or Magicos or Focals: all apparently excellent combos involving "bright" speakers. I don't think it's a question of frequency response, i.e. a "bright" amp paired with "bright" speakers. The Dev doesn't have a lifted HF response.

As an experiment, I tried my Peachtree Decco with the MLs, with the Decco's valve stage switched in. The Decco isn't a "bright" amp in the first place, and the valve stage makes it even "darker". But the result was considerably worse than with the Dev. Thin and shouty.

The most plausible answer to my question is the one Roger Sanders gives in his white paper on amplification of ESLs: viz. that the high voltage demands of ESLs cause almost all SS amps to engage their clipping protection. The solution is to use an amp that has so much voltage headroom that protective circuitry can be done away with altogether.

steve_1979 said:
Very interesting thread BTW Matt. :)

Cheers, Steve. I think this Magtech and ML combo would change your mind about the wisdom of buying high-ticket systems.
 

davedotco

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steve_1979 said:
CnoEvil said:
IME. You should try your best Power Cord on the Magtech, as I have found the biggest improvement is often heard on more powerful AB amps (I know, I know!).

It's a full moon at the moment Cno. You're running a risk posting a comment like that tonight. *bomb*

Very interesting thread BTW Matt. :)

Are you suggesting that the improvements made by better mains cables can not be heard during the full moon?

If so then I think you are probably correct.
 

steve_1979

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matt49 said:
Cheers, Steve. I think this Magtech and ML combo would change your mind about the wisdom of buying high-ticket systems.

I dare say you could be right and I wish a had a room that would suit some Martin Logan or Quad panels. Something tells me they wouldn't be ideal for a computer desktop setup though.
 

matt49

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SAM is fun. Now that I have the Sonus faber Cremona Auditor Ms in my study, I can play with SAM to my heart’s content.

I’ve configured the Dev’s remote so that I can (i) switch SAM on and off with one click of a button and (ii) adjust the SAM bass effect, ranging from 0-100%. All super easy.

SAM does two quite separate things. It corrects phase alignment and it extends bass response. So you can null the bass effect but still benefit from the phase correction. If you want to. And of course, in the interest of experimentation I had to do this.

With the SAM bass turned to zero I switched between SAM on and off, and the effect was quite remarkable. There’s a shift between things being OK (SAM off) and things being just right (SAM on): it's hard to express, but very easy to hear. I think it’s noticeable in the time domain. Things are just sharper and more precise with SAM on.

As for the bass effect, 100% sounds great. It does exactly what you’d expect it to do: it gives a wealth of extra depth and richness, which makes a smallish pair of standmounts capable of presenting a much fuller picture of the music.

With SAM the Cremonas really would be superb, if I didn’t have a pair of Martin Logans downstairs … But I won't spoil this happy story by complaining about the oh-so-obvious shortcomings of electrodynamic drivers in boxes.

*give_rose*
 

James7

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Fascinating posts, Matt - both your experience with SAM and your SFs and, even more so, your commentaries on your experience with the Sanders amp. I am envious indeed. I would be fascinated to know how the Montis stack up against some of Sanders' own ESL speakers - perhaps, though, given the Shangri-La your wanderings have finally brought you to, it is best not to travel any further, and remain content with the Audiolkab/ Sanders/ ML set-up I assume you are committing to.
 

matt49

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Thanks, James.

Having made the big move to the Magtech, I need things to settle for a while. And before I make any more changes, the acoustics in the living room need to be sorted. The speakers are sitting on floorboards. There's one small rug in the middle of the room. The sofas we brought from our old house are leather. There's nothing on the walls. So lots of HF reflections are pinging about; the sound is a bit edgy compared to my carpeted and book-lined study upstairs, where I first demoed the Magtech. In particular the MLs disperse sound vertically, so I'm getting reflections off the polished floorboards. I've done the usual experiments with rugs and duvets, which made an enormous difference.

I also need to think about isolating the speakers' bass cabinets from the floor, both to counteract resonances within the room and to protect the neighbours. I have my eye on some Townshend isolation bars; apparently they work well with MLs, and they're designed on sound (sic) engineering principles.

I've got a measurement mic and plan to get to grips with REW over Xmas.

Then in the New Year the MDAC will be off to Czechia for its second upgrade before returning to the UK as a Lakewest MDAC2. After that I can think about DACs and preamps: the MDAC2 will be a good reference.

There's also the question of digital sources for both systems. Plenty to think about.

*crazy*
 

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