DocG said:Finally got to hearing the D Premier yesterday. Shooting from the hip, it's a mixed bag to me... Well, frankly I'm somewhat disappointed.
Most of the demo was through Harbeth Compact 7ES3s (though I thought it was the Monitor 30.1s) and it sounded nice with 'simple' music, but when the mix got a little fuller (e.g. Rabih Abou Khalil's Sunrise in Montreal), it sounded flat and boxy. It was still very detailed, but the music was pale, anaemic (Is this what we call 'analytical'?).
We then swapped the Compact 7s for a pair of Devore Gibbon 3XLs. This combo sounded crisper and more detailed still [BigH or Outlaw, if you read this: the crickets on Roadhouses & Automobiles are joined by some twittering birds in the end!]. But it seriously lacked in the bass dept. And the Rabih Abou Khalil track still sounded congested. Weird detail was that I had to crank up the volume even higher (to 3 o'clock!) to get a moderate SPL. A 2 x 240 W amp firing up 90 dB speakers with a flat 8 Ohm impedance? These speakers were designed with SET amps in mind!
After I noticed the dealer's mistake with the Harbeths, we connected the M30.1s; they sounded a lot fuller than the Devores (obviously), and better than the Compact 7s, but not as I remember them (at the time on the end of a LFD integrated).
So what did I learn?
I think I'll go back to hear the D Premier with the big boys (SHL5, Guru Q60, Sony SS AR1), to hear what it is actually capable of.
And I want to hear the LFD - M30 combo again, to check if memory still serves me well!
Very interesting.
That's along the lines of what I was expecting Matt to say, after his demo...........just goes to show how unpredictable this lark can be.
Macspur said:
i agree they're the weakest link in the Harbeth chain. Figured that out before. The thing is that I thought I was listening to the Monitor 30.1 (which I had asked for), but apparently the dealer was absent-minded and connected the wrong pair! It was when I noticed they were taller than the original M 30s, that he saw his mistake... :rofl:
CnoEvil said:DocG said:Finally got to hearing the D Premier yesterday. Shooting from the hip, it's a mixed bag to me... Well, frankly I'm somewhat disappointed.
Most of the demo was through Harbeth Compact 7ES3s (though I thought it was the Monitor 30.1s
We then swapped the Compact 7s for a pair of Devore Gibbon 3XLs. This combo sounded crisper and more detailed still [BigH or Outlaw, if you read this: the crickets on Roadhouses & Automobiles are joined by some twittering birds in the end!]. But it seriously lacked in the bass dept. And the Rabih Abou Khalil track still sounded congested. Weird detail was that I had to crank up the volume even higher (to 3 o'clock!) to get a moderate SPL. A 2 x 240 W amp firing up 90 dB speakers with a flat 8 Ohm impedance? These speakers were designed with SET amps in mind!
After I noticed the dealer's mistake with the Harbeths, we connected the M30.1s; they sounded a lot fuller than the Devores (obviously), and better than the Compact 7s, but not as I remember them (at the time on the end of a LFD integrated).
So what did I learn?
I think I'll go back to hear the D Premier with the big boys (SHL5, Guru Q60, Sony SS AR1), to hear what it is actually capable of.
And I want to hear the LFD - M30 combo again, to check if memory still serves me well!
Very interesting.
That's along the lines of what I was expecting Matt to say, after his demo...........just goes to show how unpredictable this lark can be.
What is really difficult for a rookie as myself, is to find out where the amp is to blame or the speakers (or the synergy).
And I can't get over this 'volume thing': needing to crank a 240 Wpc amp up to get acceptable SPL through a 'SET-speaker'? :wall: I checked the connections, but couldn't find phase issues.
Macspur
Well-known member
DocG said:CnoEvil said:DocG said:Finally got to hearing the D Premier yesterday. Shooting from the hip, it's a mixed bag to me... Well, frankly I'm somewhat disappointed.
Most of the demo was through Harbeth Compact 7ES3s (though I thought it was the Monitor 30.1s
We then swapped the Compact 7s for a pair of Devore Gibbon 3XLs. This combo sounded crisper and more detailed still [BigH or Outlaw, if you read this: the crickets on Roadhouses & Automobiles are joined by some twittering birds in the end!]. But it seriously lacked in the bass dept. And the Rabih Abou Khalil track still sounded congested. Weird detail was that I had to crank up the volume even higher (to 3 o'clock!) to get a moderate SPL. A 2 x 240 W amp firing up 90 dB speakers with a flat 8 Ohm impedance? These speakers were designed with SET amps in mind!
After I noticed the dealer's mistake with the Harbeths, we connected the M30.1s; they sounded a lot fuller than the Devores (obviously), and better than the Compact 7s, but not as I remember them (at the time on the end of a LFD integrated).
So what did I learn?
I think I'll go back to hear the D Premier with the big boys (SHL5, Guru Q60, Sony SS AR1), to hear what it is actually capable of.
And I want to hear the LFD - M30 combo again, to check if memory still serves me well!
Very interesting.
That's along the lines of what I was expecting Matt to say, after his demo...........just goes to show how unpredictable this lark can be.
What is really difficult for a rookie as myself, is to find out where the amp is to blame or the speakers (or the synergy).
And I can't get over this 'volume thing': needing to crank a 240 Wpc amp up to get acceptable SPL through a 'SET-speaker'? :wall: I checked the connections, but couldn't find phase issues.
I know what you mean about the volume issue... I had a similar experience when demoing some ATC SCM40's with ATC integrated.
Any news on possible demo with the Accuphase?
Mac
DocG said:
IMO. You are a long way from being a rookie.
It's just a matter of plugging along until you get the right mixture, that fits your ear and your room.
I find that the more I listen to Class A, the more intolerant I am of anything else.
Macspur said:
It's there, in Brussels, waiting for me.... But I want to hear it through the Magnepans, head to head with the AMS. And I want to do a second shoot-out: Maggies versus the Avantgarde Zero 1; the latter is expected "for Q3 or Q4 of 2013". So I wait... No need to be captivated by the Accu if I decide to go Zero 1 after all
.
CnoEvil said:
Ever heard an Audiomat Opéra integrated, Cno? 30 Wpc valve amp in pure class A. This dealer has an ex-demo for sale. I haven't listened yet, but I'm not sure it's the bargain he claims it is, at €4000 (though it's got good reviews).
matt49
Well-known member
DocG said:
I'd be surprised if there wasn't something wrong with the set-up, e.g. the software settings of the D-Premier. It's said to be capable of driving difficult speaker loads with ease. When I heard the D-Premier + SHL5s, it went humungously loud without much twiddling of the remote.
DocG said:
Certainly worth giving it another go.
:cheers:
Matt
matt49 said:
I changed plans. I doubted giving this same amp another go with different speakers would sort things out for me. Especially since (should I buy it) I plan to use it with standmounters anyway. So friday morning I called another Devialet dealer. I was lucky: he just had the 110 in since two days. Did he have demo time left this morning? Yep, so about an hour later, we met in his shop. The amp was running in already. We would use a Burmester CDP as transport (coax S/PDIF to the 110). Speakers were the B&W PM1s.
The 110 looks the business. The dark chrome is more distinguished than the 'plain' chrome on the D Premier. The remote, though still substantial, is more refined too. Functionally, both amps are basically the same. The 110's back panel is far more limited though, with less 'ins' and no 'outs' but the speaker terminals.
I suppose the D Premier I had heard last Wednesday must have had issues, cos this amp sounded gorgeous. It was very fluent and dynamic, fast, and thoroughly revealing and detailed. I never understood what a 'black background' was, until now: silence was really dead quiet! But most of all, it was engaging, musical (hard to explain, but that is what I missed with the BeoLab5s). I listened for about 1h 30' and kept hearing new details in very familiar music. The dealer then swapped the PM1s for a pair of Monitor Audio PL100s. The presentation was different, more refined, delicate, but maybe more stand-offish too; I had to grow into it, but kinda liked it.
The dealer, who was very skilled, as for his gear and as for music in general, then ran through the set-up program for the Wifi-streamer with me (the amp had just arrived and he had not done this yet). A few clicks on the website, SD-card in the laptop, then in the amp and done: child's play!
I could have stayed all day, but then a customer arrived, who had made a proper appointment (to hear the new Naim DAC), so I left. I felt high (like I had felt after hearing the Quad ESLs). I've got a crush...
PS: suggestions for good standmounters, that will do proper bass? Thinking of the Guru QM10two and the Neat Momentum 3i. Any other tips wholeheartedly received!
matt49
Well-known member
DocG said:
Hi Doc,
Great write up! That sounds just like my experience of Devialet. Amazing transparency and purity, detail and dynamics, and yes, that "black background". The beauty of the Devialet for me is that it's utterly revealing but also smooth.
It sounds like the 110 had no trouble driving the speakers. Is that right? I'd kind of written the 110 off, as the 170 isn't an awful lot more expensive and does, as you say, have more options and more power. But now I'll certainly give the 110 serious consideration.
As for speaker recommendations, i heard the D-Premier driving Harbeth SHL5s, which was sublime. The transparency of the Devialet marries well with the warm airiness of the Herbths, I think. I'd also like to hear the Neat Ultimatum XLSs.
:cheers:
Matt
EDIT: Ooh, look, my avatar has changed! Woof!
matt49 said:
I think that is what sets it apart: with all its 'objective' pluses, it stays natural and musical. I rate the ADH concept highly!
matt49 said:
Well, PM1s are not the easiest speakers to drive, and the 110 did that very well. It had a better grip on the bass than when I first heard the PM1s, driven by a MF integrated (can't remember the type), though that might have been a room thing too, of course.
matt49 said:
It's a human reflex, I think: when in a restaurant, don't go for the cheapest dish or wine. Being a bit more rational: the 170 has a better phono stage (but I don't have a TT) and ADC (but my only possible analogue source would be a FM-tuner, so not sure that would be worth it). The 170 has more inputs, but the 110 has more than enough for me (4 x coax S/PDIF (2 can be turned into an analogue RCA in), 2 x optical (one of which can be used as RS232), USB-B, RJ45 and wifi. The 170 has AES/EBU (which I don't need), a second analogue line in (ditto), a digital out (ditto) and a sub out (ditto). So for me, it would be €2000 for 60 W of extra power. Having said that, I haven't heard them head to head, so don't know the effect of the better D amp. But on the website (which apparently is refreshed this morning), it's stated that the sound of the three models is identical... Might come down to the choice of speakers.
On page 1 of the thread, hone_u2 called Devialet "the new Apple". I prefer a car analogy. Some prefer an Audi R8 (technically reliable and rational, B&O) or a Lambo (sheer performance, be it with a whirlpool in the petrol tank, the AMS). And Devialet is a Tesla (new concept, beats the others in about every aspect, the future!). [I'm allowed to be so unsubtle, I have a crush, as I stated earlier
]matt49
Well-known member
DocG said:
TBH, my understanding of the ADH topology is rudimentary, but the results are pretty marvellous. Have you heard the NAD M2? Jaxwired on this forum is using one, and he's had some great kit over the years, so it must be pretty good, though one review I read said it was rather bright. I'm also interested in the new Wadia Intuition 01 (stupid name), which advertises itself as "class D+". I haven't been able to find out what this means.
DocG said:
True, though often the middling models are the "sweet spot" in a product range (or indeed a restaurant wine list). Producers think they can get bigger margins at the bottom and top ends, because consumers are driven to the top and bottom by irrational motives. Also where fixed costs form a high proportion of a product's price, they tend to be proportionally higher at the bottom of a range. (It's certainly true of wine.) So models higher up a range can be better VFM.
DocG said:
All very true. The sub out might be of interest to me further down the road, but as you say it really comes down to the amps' ability to drive speakers. It may be that the 170 provides greater long-term adaptability.
DocG said:On page 1 of the thread, hone_u2 called Devialet "the new Apple". I prefer a car analogy. Some prefer an Audi R8 (technically reliable and rational, B&O) or a Lambo (sheer performance, be it with a whirlpool in the petrol tank, the AMS). And Devialet is a Tesla (new concept, beats the others in about every aspect, the future!). [I'm allowed to be so unsubtle, I have a crush, as I stated earlier
Good analogy, and I fully empathize with your crush.
:cheers:
Matt
matt49 said:
I haven't heard the M2 yet, nor the Wadia. You could add the Esoteric RZ-1 to the list of similar products (though this one also sports a CD/SACD transport).
Then again, my feeling is the Devialets give you more (the streamer! the upgrade path!) for your money. And the Esoteric doesn't do <4 Ohm impedances (don't know about the NAD or Wadia in this respect), where the Devialet goes down to 2 Ohm. Broadens the speaker choice (though ESL's are still no option).
PS: is that Dog49 in your avatar? I bet it has quite a character!
matt49
Well-known member
DocG said:
That's a new one to me (though I see it's been around for a few years). The TEAC website isn't very forthcoming about the nature of the amplification. Presumably digital.
DocG said:
I'm sure you're right about the Dev.
I know a dealer who stocks Wadia and Devialet. Could be an interesting comparison.
DocG said:
Yes, Dog49. He's a bit of a handful, but you couldn't wish for a more loyal or affectionate hound.
matt49 said:
My Dev-dealer says it cannot compete soundwise - but then again, I'm not sure he sells Wadia, so he might be somewhat biased. So if you do compare them, keep me posted!
matt49 said:
My parents used to have a cocker spaniel when I was a kid. Friendly with capital F, but a strong will of its own!
matt49
Well-known member
DocG said:
"A good labrador is born half trained; a good cocker dies half trained." :wall:
Apparently the Devialet 170s have now reached the UK, with more expected at the beginning of next week. So maybe I'll be back on the demo trail late next week.
Macspur
Well-known member
matt49
Well-known member
Macspur said:Looking forward to your findings already... need something to pep this place up.
You mean the cable debates aren't enough for you?
Matt
Macspur
Well-known member
matt49 said:Macspur said:Looking forward to your findings already... need something to pep this place up.
You mean the cable debates aren't enough for you?
Matt
I know, I know, I'm never satisfied!
matt49
Well-known member
So the Devialet 110s and 170s have begun to trickle into UK dealers over the past week. I have a demo of the 170 booked for tomorrow. The plan is to listen through some Harbeths and Sonus Fabers.
However, the side-by-side comparison of the Devialet 170 and MF AMS35i will have to wait for another week or so.
You'll be hearing from me!
:cheers:
Matt
However, the side-by-side comparison of the Devialet 170 and MF AMS35i will have to wait for another week or so.
You'll be hearing from me!
:cheers:
Matt
DocG said:
Not sure how my RZ-1 goes on impedance under 4 ohms, and they are a bit iffy on quoting specs on their website (only quoted at 6 ohms). It would be nice if it had streaming functionality. Class D amplification. Great if you really want a CDP/SACD player. TBH, I think that it is way overpriced in the EU (5000 euro?) and US ($6000?). I bought mine retail for around 270,000 yen (just over 2000 euro?), and I think it is a fine piece of equipment at that price. Not at all in your face. Just a very clean, smooth sound. No recordings that I own are unlistenable and nothing is bright. Very black background. For some reason vocals are amazing on it. Just fantastic texture and emotion to them. I probably could have gotten better performance for the money, but I wanted an all in one for space reasons.
Macspur
Well-known member
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