Speaker isolation... again (Why could it work?)

[MajorFubar]

This is madness. It's like buying glasses without prescription. Order a pair and if they don't work for you you can always return them... Why don't they tell me what it does exactly and how it works and I can then decide if I want and can afford it.

Try asking Russ Andrews what his £3,100 DDE-1 does and how it works: he is literally banned from claiming it does anything but jack ****. For three grand. Of course I'm not saying speaker supports are marketing ********, there's very good reasons why the surface you place your speakers on affects their performance in a negative or positive way. But still, welcome to the world of hifi, where it's as much about religion and faith as science and numbers.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

that insider bloke is a very rude person you no *smile*

Yup. He has the audacity to look for explanations and proof.......very unbecoming.

lol we will buy him a nice white coat

We really need some evidence that White is the best colour.

It's the ideal colour. It will match my straight jacket

*smile* just make sure you buy yours from the sme place i do *good*

 

[Deleted member 108165]

that insider bloke is a very rude person you no *smile*

Yup. He has the audacity to look for explanations and proof.......very unbecoming.

lol we will buy him a nice white coat

Methinks a nice white straightjacket would be more suitable for some threads on here *biggrin*

N.B. This does not include this thread or Insider as he's a good guy and posts some very interesting and knowledgeable facts. EDIT: Insider beat me to it *biggrin*

 

[Gray]

What would I have to measure to see a difference?

A hell of lot more than he actually measured I would suggest Insider. His conclusion seemed to sum things up nicely.

Surely it's best that only the cone moves. The basket and everything else should remain firm relative to the cone - people don't tighten mounting bolts and use spikes for nothing do they? Those compliant pads (however small the effect) must be allowing more movement of the complete structure, than a rigid, spiked stand would......why not just suspend speakers on elastic from the ceiling...by the logic of isolation pads, that would make the sound excellent.

(As soon as I saw cable lifters on the same page....How much were they? $350? FFS)

 

[Gray]

This is madness. It's like buying glasses without prescription. Order a pair and if they don't work for you you can always return them... Why don't they tell me what it does exactly and how it works and I can then decide if I want and can afford it.

Try asking Russ Andrews what his £3,100 DDE-1 does and how it works: he is literally banned from claiming it does anything but jack ****. For three grand. Of course I'm not saying speaker supports are marketing ********, there's very good reasons why the surface you place your speakers on affects their performance in a negative or positive way. But still, welcome to the world of hifi, where it's as much about religion and faith as science and numbers.

Wouldn't look too appealing if he put that in the ad......but he'd still have buyers.

 

[insider9]

Surely it's best that only the cone moves. The basket and everything else should remain firm relative to the cone - people don't tighten mounting bolts and use spikes for nothing do they

You see whereas I can't prove isolation does anything substantial (don't have anything good enough to test and things I tested with didn't give big enough results). I certainly can say than in my system and my room coupling makes things worse. Wouldn't be unreasonable to assume proper isolation could have a very positive effect

As a rule I would say not to use spikes unless you're on a concrete floor. And that's quite a rare scenario.

 

[Gray]

Surely it's best that only the cone moves. The basket and everything else should remain firm relative to the cone - people don't tighten mounting bolts and use spikes for nothing do they

You see whereas I can't prove isolation does anything substantial (don't have anything good enough to test and things I tested with didn't give big enough results). I certainly can say than in my system and my room coupling makes things worse.

As a rule I would say not to use spikes unless you're on a concrete floor. And that's quite a rare scenario.

That would suggest that spikes are transferring sufficient energy to make sounding boards out of the wooden floorboards. Whereas you'd think (hope) that there wouldn't be that much energy to spare and that spikes were just there for rigidity.

Who knows? Logic doesn't always seem to apply. A bit like the article you linked to, comparing mp3 to uncompressed.

The majority preferred the mp3......more so with more expensive gear. Who'd expect that result?

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Surely it's best that only the cone moves. The basket and everything else should remain firm relative to the cone - people don't tighten mounting bolts and use spikes for nothing do they

You see whereas I can't prove isolation does anything substantial (don't have anything good enough to test and things I tested with didn't give big enough results). I certainly can say than in my system and my room coupling makes things worse. Wouldn't be unreasonable to assume proper isolation could have a very positive effect

As a rule I would say not to use spikes unless you're on a concrete floor. And that's quite a rare scenario.

I use spikes and spike shoes as my floor is concrete underneath and then the fake wood floor over the top of the concrete

but understand in your case because you have your setup in your spare room upstairs so I would of thought you would need something under your speakers .

 

[insider9]

That actually wasn't me posting that link.

Going back to something Gazzip said and that I agree with completely. We are complicit after all. No incentive for manufacturers to post measurements as long as the product sells.

 

[CnoEvil]

That would suggest that spikes are transferring sufficient energy to make sounding boards out of the wooden floorboards. Whereas you'd think (hope) that there wouldn't be that much energy to spare and that spikes were just there for rigidity.

Who knows? Logic doesn't always seem to apply. A bit like the article you linked to, comparing mp3 to uncompressed.

The majority preferred the mp3......more so with more expensive gear. Who'd expect that result?

In my case, when using the spikes, all the bass (from 2x8" woofers per speaker) was disappearing under the suspended wooden floor, into the 5' gap underneath. It was only when I placed Auralex Grammas under the speakers, that the bass reappeared...and the effect wasn'r subtle.

 

[Gray]

That would suggest that spikes are transferring sufficient energy to make sounding boards out of the wooden floorboards. Whereas you'd think (hope) that there wouldn't be that much energy to spare and that spikes were just there for rigidity.

Who knows? Logic doesn't always seem to apply. A bit like the article you linked to, comparing mp3 to uncompressed.

The majority preferred the mp3......more so with more expensive gear. Who'd expect that result?

In my case, when using the spikes, all the bass (from 2x8" woofers per speaker) was disappearing under the suspended wooden floor, into the 5' gap underneath. It was only when I placed Auralex Grammas under the speakers, that the bass reappeared...and the effect wasn'r subtle.

Makes you wonder what the tester man would have found by measuring the energy on your stands (or cabs, if floorstanders) when comparing coupled to uncoupled. You heard a big difference and that's what matters - the reason why people argue against worrying about measurements. Occupants of downtsairs rooms must prefer uncoupled in your case Cno. (You may be downstairs, with a 5' gap below, so only rats affected)

 

[insider9]

Surely if Cno heard a big difference there's a way to measure it. Measurements are objective. Anyone who actually worries about measurements is probably expecting not to see a difference when they think there is one.

Guess what... on a Wednesday I borrowed a fancy USB cable from my mate I've heard a big difference... I'm doing ABs right now and that difference is minimal if there is one (sighted tests). I've heard a huge difference on a Wednesday... Now I'm sure it would disappear in an unsigned test. Does it mean there isn't a difference or that I can't clearly tell if there is one? I am still going to measure it though because I'm a curious guy.

 

[Al ears]

I've been wondering about this subject for a while. I'm tempted to get myself a set of Isoacoustic Gaia II feet. I would take measurements to confirm what is actually happening.

However I'd like to understand first what it is that's supposedly happening and why it could be. I don't care what impact it has on sound quality for purpose of this thread. Just the science bit behind it.

Does anyone have any links to any measurements or anyone reputable discussing this subject?

I found this (below) and it's hard to argue that the person in question doesn't know what he's talking about.

I have been seriously considering those feet for my Adagios as I have had to move them from lounge ( solid concrete carpeted floor ) to the bedroom ( suspended wooden floor).

I shall be watching this thread with interest.

P.S.: couldn't justify the price of the Townshend equipment stands even though they are considered very effective.

I was very impressed with the Townshend Seismic Podiums when I had PMC FACT 12’s sitting on them.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BOPXJDdwtk4

The same item I couldn't really justify the price of. ;-)

Perhaps if you had actually tried them you might have felt them worth the price? *yes3*

Possibly but everything is relative. Given the cost of the speakers, relative to the £1400 supports I might use them with, then possibly a better move might be to simply buy better speakers.

 

[Gazzip]

I've been wondering about this subject for a while. I'm tempted to get myself a set of Isoacoustic Gaia II feet. I would take measurements to confirm what is actually happening.

However I'd like to understand first what it is that's supposedly happening and why it could be. I don't care what impact it has on sound quality for purpose of this thread. Just the science bit behind it.

Does anyone have any links to any measurements or anyone reputable discussing this subject?

I found this (below) and it's hard to argue that the person in question doesn't know what he's talking about.

I have been seriously considering those feet for my Adagios as I have had to move them from lounge ( solid concrete carpeted floor ) to the bedroom ( suspended wooden floor).

I shall be watching this thread with interest.

P.S.: couldn't justify the price of the Townshend equipment stands even though they are considered very effective.

I was very impressed with the Townshend Seismic Podiums when I had PMC FACT 12’s sitting on them.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BOPXJDdwtk4

The same item I couldn't really justify the price of. ;-)

Perhaps if you had actually tried them you might have felt them worth the price? *yes3*

Possibly but everything is relative. Given the cost of the speakers, relative to the £1400 supports I might use them with, then possibly a better move might be to simply buy better speakers.

I ever so slightly suspect that you might be right there.

 

[Gray]

Surely if Cno heard a big difference there's a way to measure it. Measurements are objective. Anyone who actually worries about measurements is probably expecting not to see a difference when they think there is one.

Guess what... on a Wednesday I borrowed a fancy USB cable from my mate I've heard a big difference... I'm doing ABs right now and that difference is minimal if there is one (sighted tests). I've heard a huge difference on a Wednesday... Now I'm sure it would disappear in an unsigned test. Does it mean there isn't a difference or that I can't clearly tell if there is one? I am still going to measure it though because I'm a curious guy.

I agree, I would expect to see some measurable difference. From what Cno said, energy was being dissipated by the coupling. When decoupled, he heard the bass return - there must be some measurable proof of that.

Your description of it as a 'fancy' USB cable Insider, would immediately alert the 'expectation bias' brigade. If you find there is no audible difference in subsequent tests (sighted or not) then there is no difference.

I appreciate your curiosity, but what is it that you're going to measure on the USB cables?

Whether or not you've heard a difference, you know for sure that people will tell you, with a digital lead, you've only imagined it.

 

[insider9]

Surely if Cno heard a big difference there's a way to measure it. Measurements are objective. Anyone who actually worries about measurements is probably expecting not to see a difference when they think there is one.

Guess what... on a Wednesday I borrowed a fancy USB cable from my mate I've heard a big difference... I'm doing ABs right now and that difference is minimal if there is one (sighted tests). I've heard a huge difference on a Wednesday... Now I'm sure it would disappear in an unsigned test. Does it mean there isn't a difference or that I can't clearly tell if there is one? I am still going to measure it though because I'm a curious guy.

I agree, I would expect to see some measurable difference. From what Cno said, energy was being dissipated by the coupling. When decoupled, he heard the bass return - there must be some measurable proof of that. 

Your description of it as a 'fancy' USB cable Insider, would immediately alert the 'expectation bias' brigade. If you find there is no audible difference in subsequent tests (sighted or not) then there is no difference.

I appreciate your curiosity, but what is it that you're going to measure on the USB cables?

Whether or not you've heard a difference, you know for sure that people will tell you, with a digital lead, you've only imagined a difference. 

Unfortunately they'd be wrong. With synchronous DAC there could be a difference depending on a cable. So it's not as crazy as it sounds.

What can I tell you I need to take my mind off the cup final

 

[CnoEvil]

Whether or not you've heard a difference, you know for sure that people will tell you, with a digital lead, you've only imagined it.

I won't, as I've heard a difference with a Vertere USB cable....but then, I probably imagined it....Though try as I might, I couldn't imagine the difference between my cheap Ecosse The Producer Digital Coax and an expensive Atlas Mavros one, so I have my sane days. *unknw*

 

[MajorFubar]

I'd be more inclined to take notice of the fancy digital cable brigade if they didn't claim the differences manifested themselves in ways that just can't happen with improved TX/RX of a digital signal. Things like better separation, better bass, deeper soundstage, clearer highs...basically all the things we used to read about regarding analog audio. None of that can happen in the digital domain without DSP between the source and the DAC, because changing any of those things requires changing the numbers. Cables can't change the numbers. And if the numbers don't arrive intact to start with, you get dropouts or skips. There's no half-way house or wiggleroom.

But still, if having a fancy USB cable in your setup allows you to enjoy it more, then I'm not the one to judge, that's for sure.

 

[CnoEvil]

I'd be more incliced to take notice of the fancy digital cable brigade if they didn't claim the differences manifested themselves in ways that just can't happen with improved TX/RX of a digital signal. Things like better separation, better bass, deeper soundstage, clearer highs...basically all the things we used to read about regarding analog audio. None of that can happen in the digital domain without DSP between the source and the DAC, because changing any of those things requires changing the numbers. Cables can't change the numbers. And if the numbers don't arrive intact to start with, you get dropouts or skips. There's no half-way house or wiggleroom.

But still, if having a fancy USB cable in your setup allows you to enjoy it more, then I'm not the one to judge, that's for sure.

Unfortunately, I don't have a USB cable in my system...and I couldn't hear a difference in replacing what I do have with something more expensive (happy days)....and I'm in a Brigade, so what's not to like. *biggrin*

 

[MajorFubar]

 

[CnoEvil]

Makes you wonder what the tester man would have found by measuring the energy on your stands (or cabs, if floorstanders) when comparing coupled to uncoupled. You heard a big difference and that's what matters - the reason why people argue against worrying about measurements. Occupants of downtsairs rooms must prefer uncoupled in your case Cno.

We are in a detached, Victorian house....so there is no other occupants. This is just the construction of the bottom floor.

I had the ability to return the Refs for a refund, if I didn't like them in situ (they sounded great in the shop). In fact, I chose them over the 203/2s because of their extra scale.

If I hadn't been able to sort the Bass, I would have returned them. The Bass lacked depth, definition and impact, making them sound rather thin, bright and weedy. It was very odd.

 

[CnoEvil]

Judging by his photo, Major's in some sort of brigade.

Yup, a fcuked up one. *smile*

 

[Gray]

I'd be more incliced to take notice of the fancy digital cable brigade if they didn't claim the differences manifested themselves in ways that just can't happen with improved TX/RX of a digital signal. Things like better separation, better bass, deeper soundstage, clearer highs...basically all the things we used to read about regarding analog audio. None of that can happen in the digital domain without DSP between the source and the DAC, because changing any of those things requires changing the numbers. Cables can't change the numbers. And if the numbers don't arrive intact to start with, you get dropouts or skips. There's no half-way house or wiggleroom.

But still, if having a fancy USB cable in your setup allows you to enjoy it more, then I'm not the one to judge, that's for sure.

Unfortunately, I don't have a USB cable in my system...and I couldn't hear a difference in replacing what I do have with something more expensive (happy days)....and I'm in a Brigade, so what's not to like. *biggrin*

Judging by his photo, Major's in some sort of brigade.