Do Bottle Necks Exists In HiFi Systems

[Oxfordian]

I started a thread about possible upgrades a while back but decided to park everything whilst I investigate which direction to go.

Recently I had a very enjoyable demo of Pro-Ject's Xtension 9 and some associated excellent partnering equipment, this very much whetted my appetite for a TT upgrade.

Now others on this forum suggested in my original thread that if I upgraded my TT then the likelihood was that I may need (want) to upgrade the amplifier.

Chatting with my HiFi dealer back in Kent about upgrades and demos I ran through my plan to upgrade the TT in the next few months and their response was to tell me to stop everything and upgrade my amplifier first, as in their opinion as good as the Hegel H95 is it will hold back any benefits in a future turntable upgrade.

Their proposed upgrade path would be amp first, (Hegel H190 or Rega Aethos, they stock both) next up speakers, and then TT including an upgraded phono stage and new cartridge at the time of purchasing.

How do others on this forum feel about upgrading the amplifier first, in many respects building the system around the amp, will keeping the H95 create a sound quality bottleneck if I went TT first?

If a sound quality bottleneck will become apparent then what amplifiers would other people recommend, I have a hankering to own something from Exposure and have found a dealer 90 minutes away from me so may give them a call and book a demo, they also stock Rega, Naim, ATC, Sugden plus a few other brands so there is a good selection to listen too.

The Rega gets good write ups as does the Hegel, the amp that was partnering the Pro-Ject X9 I listened too on demo was a Leema Tucana II, which sounded rather nice, so I may be blessed with some good options to audition.

If anyone has experience (good or bad) of Exposure, Naim, Rega, Leema or any other brand of amplifier that I have mentioned or has suggestions that I could consider please get involved.

Also, if you think that I am barking mad getting the amp first then please let me know and explain why, I am more than happy to be educated in these matters.

No doubt one of the first questions that will be asked is 'What's the budget', if I'm totally honest this spend is going to be my last spend on HiFi equipment, so I want to end up with a system that will last for a good few years without further intervention. The current system is going to be re-used over time and not sold or p/x'd. So, what's the figure for the amp, £4k preferably less but I'll run to £4k (ish) for the right amp.

Apologies for a lengthy post, I look forward to peoples comments and suggestions.

 

[plastic penguin]

I started a thread about possible upgrades a while back but decided to park everything whilst I investigate which direction to go.

Recently I had a very enjoyable demo of Pro-Ject's Xtension 9 and some associated excellent partnering equipment, this very much whetted my appetite for a TT upgrade.

Now others on this forum suggested in my original thread that if I upgraded my TT then the likelihood was that I may need (want) to upgrade the amplifier.

Chatting with my HiFi dealer back in Kent about upgrades and demos I ran through my plan to upgrade the TT in the next few months and their response was to tell me to stop everything and upgrade my amplifier first, as in their opinion as good as the Hegel H95 is it will hold back any benefits in a future turntable upgrade.

Their proposed upgrade path would be amp first, (Hegel H190 or Rega Aethos, they stock both) next up speakers, and then TT including an upgraded phono stage and new cartridge at the time of purchasing.

How do others on this forum feel about upgrading the amplifier first, in many respects building the system around the amp, will keeping the H95 create a sound quality bottleneck if I went TT first?

If a sound quality bottleneck will become apparent then what amplifiers would other people recommend, I have a hankering to own something from Exposure and have found a dealer 90 minutes away from me so may give them a call and book a demo, they also stock Rega, Naim, ATC, Sugden plus a few other brands so there is a good selection to listen too.

The Rega gets good write ups as does the Hegel, the amp that was partnering the Pro-Ject X9 I listened too on demo was a Leema Tucana II, which sounded rather nice, so I may be blessed with some good options to audition.

If anyone has experience (good or bad) of Exposure, Naim, Rega, Leema or any other brand of amplifier that I have mentioned or has suggestions that I could consider please get involved.

Also, if you think that I am barking mad getting the amp first then please let me know and explain why, I am more than happy to be educated in these matters.

No doubt one of the first questions that will be asked is 'What's the budget', if I'm totally honest this spend is going to be my last spend on HiFi equipment, so I want to end up with a system that will last for a good few years without further intervention. The current system is going to be re-used over time and not sold or p/x'd. So, what's the figure for the amp, £4k preferably less but I'll run to £4k (ish) for the right amp.

Apologies for a lengthy post, I look forward to peoples comments and suggestions.

Yes, generally when people upgrade a individual component it's usually because they think their system was lacking in one area or another.

I upgraded my lovely little Arcam because it didn't quite have the balls to control the RS6 sufficiently at higher volumes.

My personal opinion is the amp is the heart of a system with speakers being the Soul.

Of course sources are very important but I lived quite happily with my £200 Pro-ject Xpression 1, Arcam CD73 for years before upgrading those. However, others may look at it differently.

 

[Gray]

....next up speakers

What are your current ones?

 

[Al ears]

Personally I would not have gone for the amp first because with an analogue system the source quality is everything, and by that I mean cartridge and phono preamp if one is needed.
Garbage in, garbage out so it doesn't matter how good your amp is as long as it's capable of driving your speakers.

 

[plastic penguin]

What are your current ones?

According to the OPs sig it's ATC SCM7

 

[plastic penguin]

Personally I would not have gone for the amp first because with an analogue system the source quality is everything, and by that I mean cartridge and phono preamp if one is needed.
Garbage in, garbage out so it doesn't matter how good your amp is as long as it's capable of driving your speakers.

Concur in the main, but if you buy an expensive source and you have a crummy amp, you'll never hear what your system is capable of....

 

[Oxfordian]

What are your current ones?

ATC SMC 7's, very nice, small beautifully put together and sound just fine if a bit bass light but that can be forgiven in a tiny package.

This whole project is about me wanting to get a bit more out of the vinyl that I enjoy listening to, so which is the best way? I'm wondering if there is a correct route to utopia. This isn't something that I am going to rush into so plenty of time to discuss, audition and review.

 

[leemccann1]

I think having a demo is everything.

Different type of set up for me but ive just swapped out my Kef LS50 wireless 2's ofr a more AV set up but music was still key for me, ive got the Denon 6700 and just bought the MA gold 100's, I listened to these in direct comparison in Richer sounds to the MA gold 200's, this was also via a denon 6700 but i also asked for a power amp to be added (a £1500 emotiva). it was streaming via tidal. The 200's were undoubtably better but not £2000 better (imo) also when i recieved the 100's in my house using the 6700 without a power amp I didnt hear a significant difference against the set up in the store.

apreciate this i not really a similar comparision to the set up you are looking at but just worht noting test firt and decide on the value of what you may improve against what you have now.

 

[plastic penguin]

ATC SMC 7's, very nice, small beautifully put together and sound just fine if a bit bass light but that can be forgiven in a tiny package.

This whole project is about me wanting to get a bit more out of the vinyl that I enjoy listening to, so which is the best way? I'm wondering if there is a correct route to utopia. This isn't something that I am going to rush into so plenty of time to discuss, audition and review.

Looking at your ATCs, they recommend amps 75-300 watts per channel. Your Hegel, I believe, is 60 watts. I guess they are not getting the best out of your ATCs.

Personally I would look at Hegel H160, Leema Tucana or perhaps Roksan Blak

 

[Oxfordian]

Concur in the main, but if you buy an expensive source and you have a crummy amp, you'll never hear what your system is capable of....

Personally I would not have gone for the amp first because with an analogue system the source quality is everything, and by that I mean cartridge and phono preamp if one is needed.
Garbage in, garbage out so it doesn't matter how good your amp is as long as it's capable of driving your speakers.

This is my dilemma, two perfectly reasonable replies but opposing views, if I buy a new TT the amp may not give it room to breath but if I buy the amp first my existing TT may not make it work as well as it could.

I've abandoned the Cartridge/Phono stage upgrade simply because there is no point if I
am going to get a new TT in the next 6-9 months, I might as well incorporate these at the time I buy a new TT.

My problem is that I don't know if to go left or right?

 

[plastic penguin]

This is my dilemma, two perfectly reasonable replies but opposing views, if I buy a new TT the amp may not give it room to breath but if I buy the amp first my existing TT may not make it work as well as it could.

I've abandoned the Cartridge/Phono stage upgrade simply because there is no point if I
am going to get a new TT in the next 6-9 months, I might as well incorporate these at the time I buy a new TT.

My problem is that I don't know if to go left or right?

The main point I was making is that one component relies on others. @Al ears and I are preaching from the same book, just on different pages.

 

[Oxfordian]

Looking at your ATCs, they recommend amps 75-300 watts per channel. Your Hegel, I believe, is 60 watts. I guess they are not getting the best out of your ATCs.

Personally I would look at Hegel H160, Leema Tucana or perhaps Roksan Blak

You're right, but the H95 runs those 7's just fine, I don't have the volume set at 10 it's normally around 6.5 to 7 and that's just fine for me in my small room, they are just a bit bass light. The H95 does have a good 'Damping Factor' which allows it to run 'difficult' speakers with ease (Manufacturer's blurb).

But I agree I think a bit more oomph under the bonnet wouldn't go amis.

 

[plastic penguin]

You're right, but the H95 runs those 7's just fine, I don't have the volume set at 10 it's normally around 6.5 to 7 and that's just fine for me in my small room, they are just a bit bass light. The H95 does have a good 'Damping Factor' which allows it to run 'difficult' speakers with ease (Manufacturer's blurb).

But I agree I think a bit more oomph under the bonnet wouldn't go amis.

It's possible the speakers are bass light as the amp is under the minimum wattage. ATCs, although excellent, are not the easiest to drive.

 

[Oxfordian]

The main point I was making is that one component relies on others. @Al ears and I are preaching from the same book, just on different pages.

I understand that, my confusion is which page is first?

I could do a TT, Amp and Speakers in one hit once I have the funds ready but I have always thought that it would be better to integrate new purchases slowly to ensure that they fit and that I build the system to give me the sound that I want my ears to hear.

My belief is that a new Amp would be the best place to start but I can also understand the logic that upgrading the TT then the amp would be the direction to take.

As I ponder which direction to go I wonder if there is realistically no right or wrong answer.

 

[Oxfordian]

It's possible the speakers are bass light as the amp is under the minimum wattage. ATCs, although excellent, are not the easiest to drive.

Good point, not one that I had considered, albeit it is stated in the blurb that the H95 has a 'Damping Factor' of 2000 and this is key to the amps ability to drive a difficult speaker, what is 'damping factor'?

 

[plastic penguin]

As I ponder which direction to go I wonder if there is realistically no right or wrong answer.

Nope, no right or wrong solution or answer unless it goes horribly wrong.

But given your Hegel may not be driving the speakers sufficiently.... that's the first place to start. If the amp is slightly deficient in power, you either change the amp or speakers that's an easier load.

 

[plastic penguin]

This was dilemma I faced about the Dalis or possibly the MA Gold 100s. Both are 4 ohms. Once I demoed both side by side any doubts about the amp's ability to sufficiently drive those speakers went straight out of the window. Of course I lost a little volume but overall they driven well.

 

[Oxfordian]

Nope, no right or wrong solution or answer unless it goes horribly wrong.

But given your Hegel may not be driving the speakers sufficiently.... that's the first place to start. If the amp is slightly deficient in power, you either change the amp or speakers that's an easier load.

I think that I will go Amp first (sorry @Al ears but I think that I need to ensure that the speakers are having a good workout) and then slowly change bits once I am happy with the sound.

Now, what about amps; I've had a couple of hours with Leena and that was impressive but within the stores demo system and as yet not in my system or room, what are people's thoughts on the likes of Exposure, Naim, Rega and of course I could move up to the Hegel H190 which would (should/could) give me a familiar sound with the 7's albeit with a bit more bass and control.

Just e-mailed my old HiFi dealer and cheekily asked if I could borrow a H190 for a few days, it might cost a tank full of fuel to go and get it if he agrees but it could answer some questions.

 

[plastic penguin]

I think that I will go Amp first (sorry @Al ears but I think that I need to ensure that the speakers are having a good workout) and then slowly change bits once I am happy with the sound.

Now, what about amps; I've had a couple of hours with Leena and that was impressive but within the stores demo system and as yet not in my system or room, what are people's thoughts on the likes of Exposure, Naim, Rega and of course I could move up to the Hegel H190 which would (should/could) give me a familiar sound with the 7's albeit with a bit more bass and control.

Just e-mailed my old HiFi dealer and cheekily asked if I could borrow a H190 for a few days, it might cost a tank full of fuel to go and get it if he agrees but it could answer some questions.

Exposure 2510 or 3510 seem to get rave reviews, but not heard them. Naim I've heard quite a few over the years and they sound too forward for my taste. Should you have long listening sessions Naim amplifiers can grate. I owned CD5i and on a short listen it was fine, otherwise.

Rega make good amps but I couldn't get them to work for my combos.

Also look at Arcam SA20 or 30 and Roksan Blak. Of course if you like Hegel, then the H160 or 190 could be the answer.

 

[Gray]

what is 'damping factor'?

In use, speakers act as reverse generators.
Damping factor is a measure of an amp's ability to handle (damp) that energy and minimise unwanted cone movement.
(Act as a brake to stop it faster after notes).

 

[Oxfordian]

Exposure 2510 or 3510 seem to get rave reviews, but not heard them. Naim I've heard quite a few over the years and they sound too forward for my taste. Should you have long listening sessions Naim amplifiers can grate. I owned CD5i and on a short listen it was fine, otherwise.

Rega make good amps but I couldn't get them to work for my combos.

Also look at Arcam SA20 or 30 and Roksan Blak. Of course if you like Hegel, then the H160 or 190 could be the answer.

I am interested in the Exposure 3510, it is approx £1k below the Hegel and Rega and is getting some very good reviews plus their dealer is under 90 minutes from my home so has to be worth going to see them, have a chat and getting a demo set up, they also stock Rega and ATC so should be able to replicate my system in a demo. I understand that the 3510 comes minus any DAC (built in to the Hegel) and doesn't have a phono stage (neither does the Hegel), but I can add a DAC or Phono board at an extra cost.

They also stock Michell, Vertere, Linn and SME so could be a good place for a TT upgrade once I have the amp sorted.

 

[Oxfordian]

In use, speakers act as reverse generators.
Damping factor is a measure of an amp's ability to handle (damp) that energy and minimise unwanted cone movement.
(Act as a brake to stop it faster after notes).

Thanks for this, get the idea, Hegel quote a figure of 2000 for the H95 on the spec page (4000 for the H190), the paragraph below is taken from their website but unsure whether 2000 is good bad or just a figure plucked from the Norwegian air.

Add to this our patented SoundEngine2 technology and you really get something spectacular. The technology reduces signal distortion to very low levels and makes certain you totally immerse yourself in your music or your movies. Our SoundEngine2 technology also applies astonishing bass control and grip on your loudspeakers. H95's grip, in technical terms 'damping factor', is up to 20 times higher than the industry average. This delivers a dynamic, agile, and powerful bass response, and is why 60 watts of output power is more than enough to drive challenging speakers with confidence.

 

[Gray]

...unsure whether 2000 is good bad or just a figure plucked from the Norwegian air.

🙂
Significantly higher than most, is the point they proudly make.

 

[plastic penguin]

I am interested in the Exposure 3510, it is approx £1k below the Hegel and Rega and is getting some very good reviews plus their dealer is under 90 minutes from my home so has to be worth going to see them, have a chat and getting a demo set up, they also stock Rega and ATC so should be able to replicate my system in a demo. I understand that the 3510 comes minus any DAC (built in to the Hegel) and doesn't have a phono stage (neither does the Hegel), but I can add a DAC or Phono board at an extra cost.

They also stock Michell, Vertere, Linn and SME so could be a good place for a TT upgrade once I have the amp sorted.

Sounds like a well stocked dealer. Exposure doesn't come with a phono stage or Dac, you have to add a module. Yep, a demo is essential.

 

[nopiano]

Good point, not one that I had considered, albeit it is stated in the blurb that the H95 has a 'Damping Factor' of 2000 and this is key to the amps ability to drive a difficult speaker, what is 'damping factor'?

It’s the ratio of the amplifier’s output impendance to the impedance of the speakers.
So, an output impedance of 0.1 ohm into typical 8 ohms speakers, would be represented as a damping factor of 80.

Although higher damping factors can sound ‘tighter’ with certain speakers - ironically, not so relevant with your sealed box ATCs - it’s largely irrelevant. However, Hegel aren’t alone in making a big play of it. Pace Hegel’s claim, it doesn’t explain driving ability as that’s more about current.

Valve amps do have higher output impedances, generally, as hence have a different sound. They also usually have a low current capability

As to which amp to sample, ATCs own SIA-150 would be an obvious choice, or the more affordable 100.