Do Bottle Necks Exists In HiFi Systems

[WayneKerr]

You're proving the importance of auditioning 👍

Nah

 

[matthewpianist]

Don't be sorry, this is the feedback that I want, I have no issues investigating any of the suggestions made, not crossed my mind to look at Musical Fidelity, so why not have a look. Thanks for the suggestion.

The M6si is quite a bit less expensive and may well give you everything you want, if you find you like the MF sound.

 

[plastic penguin]

The M6si is quite a bit less expensive and may well give you everything you want, if you find you like the MF sound.

Not had any recent experience of any MF amps, probably close on 20 years the last one I heard.

The brand that was very impressive was the AVI Laboratory Series, long before they produced actives.

 

[matthewpianist]

Not had any recent experience of any MF amps, probably close on 20 years the last one I heard.

The brand that was very impressive was the AVI Laboratory Series, long before they produced actives.

They're owned by Project now but still producing typically MF kit. A few years ago I was working for one of the big piano manufacturers, and on answering the phone I was met with the voice of Anthony Michaelson with whom I had a great chat - a genuinely knowledgeable and talented musician with a passion for great sound.

I've never heard any AVI kit. The actives appealed at one point, but the enthusiasm of AJ unfortunately went from being a selling point to the opposite. I think it's a shame that (to my best knowledge) he isn't still producing, because the ADM9.1s and variants certainly had a lot of fans.

 

[plastic penguin]

They're owned by Project now but still producing typically MF kit. A few years ago I was working for one of the big piano manufacturers, and on answering the phone I was met with the voice of Anthony Michaelson with whom I had a great chat - a genuinely knowledgeable and talented musician with a passion for great sound.

I've never heard any AVI kit. The actives appealed at one point, but the enthusiasm of AJ unfortunately went from being a selling point to the opposite. I think it's a shame that (to my best knowledge) he isn't still producing, because the ADM9.1s and variants certainly had a lot of fans.

Crikey, seems like most brands have been taken over by bigger audio companies.

AVI certainly had a tribal following, I had more than one run in with Ashley.

 

[matthewpianist]

Crikey, seems like most brands have been taken over by bigger audio companies.

I think it's the way of the world, seen in many sectors including musical instruments and cars.

 

[twinkletoes]

@Oxfordian im a little late to the party and for what its worth ill put 2 cents in for better or worse, to answer your question yes bottlenecks do exist. You mentioned one umpteen posts back "lack of bass" or at least the perception of but shrugged it off, why? it would suggest this is where your bottleneck is and I'm sorry to say, no amount of power shoved up their behinds will change their character.

Story time.

I auditioned ATC smc 19s with a Naim 250dr many a year ago, I was excited to listen as i heard many good things, it was one of the biggest letdowns in my audio journey, i'd have thought the 250dr would have had the grunt to drive them but alas I guess not. They were uninvolving and completely lack lustre. Was it the speakers? mostly! was it the amp? a little the naim was not an unsubstantial amp though.

ATC i moved to one side inserting Revel m106's in. My word what a difference they made. Sparkle in the top end, a full mid band, thunderous bass that belied there size. The dynamics they possessed was almost horn-like, you can play them at any volume and have a full sound.

what was the bottleneck? the speakers.


Your hegal is fine amp being hamstrung by speakers one way or another whether that be power or whatnot.

My first port of call would be to try/borrow some dynamically rich speakers, ones that aren't made for mastering engineers that listen to everything at full tilt 90% of time with a room full of subwoofers.

Look to brands like Revel, Pro arch tabbletts 10s, JBL l52, harbeth, russel k, Klipsch, triangle, KLH, missions new 700s, tannoy, finn audio. All amazing rich and full sound speaker brands of all shapes and sizes that dont require a nuclear-powered sub to get a murmur of sound out of them. heck some of them with 60watts on tap would blow your socks off.

Others may disagree but ultimately the path of least resistance here is, easier to drive speakers. That my experience and thoughts on where your bottle neck is.

 

[Oxfordian]

@Oxfordian im a little late to the party and for what its worth ill put 2 cents in for better or worse, to answer your question yes bottlenecks do exist. You mentioned one umpteen posts back "lack of bass" or at least the perception of but shrugged it off, why? it would suggest this is where your bottleneck is and I'm sorry to say, no amount of power shoved up their behinds will change their character.

Story time.

I auditioned ATC smc 19s with a Naim 250dr many a year ago, I was excited to listen as i heard many good things, it was one of the biggest letdowns in my audio journey, i'd have thought the 250dr would have had the grunt to drive them but alas I guess not. They were uninvolving and completely lack lustre. Was it the speakers? mostly! was it the amp? a little the naim was not an unsubstantial amp though.

ATC i moved to one side inserting Revel m106's in. My word what a difference they made. Sparkle in the top end, a full mid band, thunderous bass that belied there size. The dynamics they possessed was almost horn-like, you can play them at any volume and have a full sound.

what was the bottleneck? the speakers.


Your hegal is fine amp being hamstrung by speakers one way or another whether that be power or whatnot.

My first port of call would be to try/borrow some dynamically rich speakers, ones that aren't made for mastering engineers that listen to everything at full tilt 90% of time with a room full of subwoofers.

Look to brands like Revel, Pro arch tabbletts 10s, JBL l52, harbeth, russel k, Klipsch, triangle, KLH, missions new 700s, tannoy, finn audio. All amazing rich and full sound speaker brands of all shapes and sizes that dont require a nuclear-powered sub to get a murmur of sound out of them. heck some of them with 60watts on tap would blow your socks off.

Others may disagree but ultimately the path of least resistance here is, easier to drive speakers. That my experience and thoughts on where your bottle neck is.

Welcome to the party and thank you for the input, you have looked at the issue from a different perspective and that is appreciated.

Over the last few days I have tried to make sense of everything that has been suggested, commented on and generally discussed in this thread, I have contacted dealers, contacted companies and tried to get hold of various amps that could be better drivers for these speakers, the more I looked the more confused I became.

Then I came back to the ATC's, are they the problem? Have I bought a really good pair of speakers that are nearly but not quite what i'm looking for?

One further consideration is the cost factor, I have had suggestions for amplifiers that cost from £2200 up to £4000, I am fairly confident that I can get another pair of speakers for considerably less than the highest figure and possibly even less than the lowest figure

So your arrival at this party is far from too late, I have to consider the direction I want to take very carefully and ensure that it is the right one for me, maybe it is the amp route, maybe it is the speaker route, but this has to be my last upgrade and give me a sound that I enjoy for a long long time.

In many respects not having the funds in my pocket at this moment is very advantageous, I can look at, audition and generally view my options in the weeks and months ahead. Your comments have been an excellent alternative viewpoint that I am sure will add to the discussion.

 

[plastic penguin]

@Oxfordian im a little late to the party and for what its worth ill put 2 cents in for better or worse, to answer your question yes bottlenecks do exist. You mentioned one umpteen posts back "lack of bass" or at least the perception of but shrugged it off, why? it would suggest this is where your bottleneck is and I'm sorry to say, no amount of power shoved up their behinds will change their character.

Story time.

I auditioned ATC smc 19s with a Naim 250dr many a year ago, I was excited to listen as i heard many good things, it was one of the biggest letdowns in my audio journey, i'd have thought the 250dr would have had the grunt to drive them but alas I guess not. They were uninvolving and completely lack lustre. Was it the speakers? mostly! was it the amp? a little the naim was not an unsubstantial amp though.

ATC i moved to one side inserting Revel m106's in. My word what a difference they made. Sparkle in the top end, a full mid band, thunderous bass that belied there size. The dynamics they possessed was almost horn-like, you can play them at any volume and have a full sound.

what was the bottleneck? the speakers.


Your hegal is fine amp being hamstrung by speakers one way or another whether that be power or whatnot.

My first port of call would be to try/borrow some dynamically rich speakers, ones that aren't made for mastering engineers that listen to everything at full tilt 90% of time with a room full of subwoofers.

Look to brands like Revel, Pro arch tabbletts 10s, JBL l52, harbeth, russel k, Klipsch, triangle, KLH, missions new 700s, tannoy, finn audio. All amazing rich and full sound speaker brands of all shapes and sizes that dont require a nuclear-powered sub to get a murmur of sound out of them. heck some of them with 60watts on tap would blow your socks off.

Others may disagree but ultimately the path of least resistance here is, easier to drive speakers. That my experience and thoughts on where your bottle neck is.

We can all throw as many different brands until the cows come home.

I genuinely think @Oxfordian should start with whether the amp is driving those ATCs correctly. The only way to know is by comparing his H95 with a H160, whether as a home or a shop demo.

If we throw too many names at him he'll end up not seeing the wood for the trees. This has happened to me only last year.

 

[twinkletoes]

Welcome to the party and thank you for the input, you have looked at the issue from a different perspective and that is appreciated.

Over the last few days I have tried to make sense of everything that has been suggested, commented on and generally discussed in this thread, I have contacted dealers, contacted companies and tried to get hold of various amps that could be better drivers for these speakers, the more I looked the more confused I became.

Then I came back to the ATC's, are they the problem? Have I bought a really good pair of speakers that are nearly but not quite what i'm looking for?

One further consideration is the cost factor, I have had suggestions for amplifiers that cost from £2200 up to £4000, I am fairly confident that I can get another pair of speakers for considerably less than the highest figure and possibly even less than the lowest figure

So your arrival at this party is far from too late, I have to consider the direction I want to take very carefully and ensure that it is the right one for me, maybe it is the amp route, maybe it is the speaker route, but this has to be my last upgrade and give me a sound that I enjoy for a long long time.

In many respects not having the funds in my pocket at this moment is very advantageous, I can look at, audition and generally view my options in the weeks and months ahead. Your comments have been an excellent alternative viewpoint that I am sure will add to the discussion.

Thats all i wanted to do is give a different perspective. As they say, never go shopping when you're hungry and buying right and buying once is very important to me it took me 5 years to pick my first turntable and it will be the only one i own. 3k lighter but will be here for life.

Hopefully, i didn't confuse you with all the brands but you seem to see my point.

Efficiency is going to be your friend here and far far cheaper for very little to no money spent depending on how well you do with selling your speakers. (Selling your amp won't give you nearly as much money back if you want to look at it purely from the wallet point of view and is very important) you will completely change the sound of your system. Your amp is more than powerful enough to drive a number of speakers incredibly well! I am more about the path of least resistance.

I've said my piece and hopefully you find your way, feel free to reach out if want to chat further.

 

[Oxfordian]

We can all throw as many different brands until the cows come home.

I genuinely think @Oxfordian should start with whether the amp is driving those ATCs correctly. The only way to know is by comparing his H95 with a H160, whether as a home or a shop demo.

If we throw too many names at him he'll end up not seeing the wood for the trees. This has happened to me only last year.

I have to consider as many options as possible which is why everyone's comments and suggestions are so gratefully received. People taking a different view on an issue brings forth discussion and this is what I am so appreciative of and thankful for.

When I finally commit to this upgrade I want to do it right, if the amp is the problem then fine I'll change the amp, if it is the speakers then fine I'll change the speakers, from my point of view I thought that I had it right last time.

To be fair I listen to my HiFi far more today than I did this time last year or two years ago, maybe this increase in listening has made me realise that my system has some shortfalls.

My hifi dealer back in Kent is lending me a Hegel H190 to try out at home, he is also willing to lend me a Musical Fidelity M6si to try out at home, the Hegel is his surefire replacement for it's little brother but he also rates the M6si highly as well although he states that the sound is very different from the Hegel and will require a bit of time to adjust to the way it portrays the music compared to the Hegel sound I am used to.

So I will be testing both out at home in the weeks ahead and this will allow me to determine whether either improves the situation, once I have this information I will know which direction I need to go next.

ATC are also keen for me to hear their amplifiers and as such are willing to send demo machines to my local dealer for me to try out.

 

[plastic penguin]

I have to consider as many options as possible which is why everyone's comments and suggestions are so gratefully received. People taking a different view on an issue brings forth discussion and this is what I am so appreciative of and thankful for.

When I finally commit to this upgrade I want to do it right, if the amp is the problem then fine I'll change the amp, if it is the speakers then fine I'll change the speakers, from my point of view I thought that I had it right last time.

To be fair I listen to my HiFi far more today than I did this time last year or two years ago, maybe this increase in listening has made me realise that my system has some shortfalls.

My hifi dealer back in Kent is lending me a Hegel H190 to try out at home, he is also willing to lend me a Musical Fidelity M6si to try out at home, the Hegel is his surefire replacement for it's little brother but he also rates the M6si highly as well although he states that the sound is very different from the Hegel and will require a bit of time to adjust to the way it portrays the music compared to the Hegel sound I am used to.

So I will be testing both out at home in the weeks ahead and this will allow me to determine whether either improves the situation, once I have this information I will know which direction I need to go next.

ATC are also keen for me to hear their amplifiers and as such are willing to send demo machines to my local dealer for me to try out.

Fair enough.

If you have dealers and makers falling over you to try their gear that's a good place to be. When you are looking at a substantial outlay it's best not to rush.

Where in Kent are you located?

 

[Oxfordian]

Fair enough.

If you have dealers and makers falling over you to try their gear that's a good place to be. When you are looking at a substantial outlay it's best not to rush.

Where in Kent are you located?

No longer living in Kent, but I used to be just outside Maidstone, now reside in the wonderful county of Cornwall.

Still on good terms with the guys in HomeMedia in Maidstone who are awesome people by helping me out.

I also think that buying Hifi in the current climate is very much a luxury purchase so I guess that dealers and manufacturers are looking to get every sale possible so getting kit into peoples hands to demo can only help encourage the flexing of the plastic (or more likely waving a phone or watch across a reader).

Thanks for your input, suggestions, advice and knowledge it is appreciated.

 

[plastic penguin]

No longer living in Kent, but I used to be just outside Maidstone, now reside in the wonderful county of Cornwall.

Still on good terms with the guys in HomeMedia in Maidstone who are awesome people by helping me out.

I also think that buying Hifi in the current climate is very much a luxury purchase so I guess that dealers and manufacturers are looking to get every sale possible so getting kit into peoples hands to demo can only help encourage the flexing of the plastic (or more likely waving a phone or watch across a reader).

Thanks for your input, suggestions, advice and knowledge it is appreciated.

Keep us updated, any questions all of us are here to try and guide you.

A school mate moved to Walderslade near Chatham.

 

[Oxfordian]

Keep us updated, any questions all of us are here to try and guide you.

A school mate moved to Walderslade near Chatham.

Top of the hill is Walderslade, they get all the snow when it condescends to make an appearance.

Thanks

 

[WayneKerr]

@Oxfordian im a little late to the party and for what its worth ill put 2 cents in for better or worse, to answer your question yes bottlenecks do exist. You mentioned one umpteen posts back "lack of bass" or at least the perception of but shrugged it off, why? it would suggest this is where your bottleneck is and I'm sorry to say, no amount of power shoved up their behinds will change their character.

Story time.

I auditioned ATC smc 19s with a Naim 250dr many a year ago, I was excited to listen as i heard many good things, it was one of the biggest letdowns in my audio journey, i'd have thought the 250dr would have had the grunt to drive them but alas I guess not. They were uninvolving and completely lack lustre. Was it the speakers? mostly! was it the amp? a little the naim was not an unsubstantial amp though.

ATC i moved to one side inserting Revel m106's in. My word what a difference they made. Sparkle in the top end, a full mid band, thunderous bass that belied there size. The dynamics they possessed was almost horn-like, you can play them at any volume and have a full sound.

what was the bottleneck? the speakers.


Your hegal is fine amp being hamstrung by speakers one way or another whether that be power or whatnot.

My first port of call would be to try/borrow some dynamically rich speakers, ones that aren't made for mastering engineers that listen to everything at full tilt 90% of time with a room full of subwoofers.

Look to brands like Revel, Pro arch tabbletts 10s, JBL l52, harbeth, russel k, Klipsch, triangle, KLH, missions new 700s, tannoy, finn audio. All amazing rich and full sound speaker brands of all shapes and sizes that dont require a nuclear-powered sub to get a murmur of sound out of them. heck some of them with 60watts on tap would blow your socks off.

Others may disagree but ultimately the path of least resistance here is, easier to drive speakers. That my experience and thoughts on where your bottle neck is.

This is interesting twinkletoes I hadn't even considered this. Never heard ATC speakers so can't comment myself but you can't beat first hand experience. I had previously suggested an amp which doubled its power into 4 ohms as a possible solution but your comments opens up the can even more

 

[Oxfordian]

This is interesting twinkletoes I hadn't even considered this. Never heard ATC speakers so can't comment myself but you can't beat first hand experience. I had previously suggested an amp which doubled its power into 4 ohms as a possible solution but your comments opens up the can even more

The Hifi team I have been working with had a look of horror when I suggested changing the speakers, they rate the 7's highly and are not keen to swap them out for something different, their rationale is that other small speakers of this quality are often ported so making them more difficult to place in my modest listening room (actually modest really means small) which is why they picked them in the beginning.

Top of their upgrade list is the Hegel H190, from their point of view it will take what ever I want to change in the future without blinking, it has the oomph to drive just about any speaker and has a first rate DAC if I want to expand my digital listening, only a phono stage is required to get my TT up and running.

They partner the 7's with Hegel regularly and don't have any issues, although they have suggested that if I really want to splash out then I could do worse than look at an Accuphase E280 apparently that has got the 7's really singing in a few recent installs.

But I do think that there is something in @twinkletoes comment and something that I am going to explore in the coming weeks.

 

[nopiano]

The Hifi team I have been working with had a look of horror when I suggested changing the speakers, they rate the 7's highly and are not keen to swap them out for something different, their rationale is that other small speakers of this quality are often ported so making them more difficult to place in my modest listening room (actually modest really means small) which is why they picked them in the beginning.

Exactly my thoughts. Other’s experiences with Naim and larger ATCs aren’t too relevant for you, imo. And having tried Revel M16 (not the 106) at home, I think ATC are streets better.

If you can get to audition other speakers, by all means. My money would still be on an ATC amp, but we’ve all got differing experiences and ears.

 

[Gray]

...they rate the 7's highly

Good for them.
And there's nothing wrong with their rationale about room positioning where ports are involved.

However, at least in previous threads, most people here seem to agree that a change of speakers gives a bigger SQ change than any other component.

Sealed box may be best for you, but front ported need not be a problem.

Never mind anyone else's looks of horror, don't rule out a change of speakers - essential to try any in your room with the intended amp though.

 

[WayneKerr]

The Hifi team I have been working with had a look of horror when I suggested changing the speakers, they rate the 7's highly and are not keen to swap them out for something different, their rationale is that other small speakers of this quality are often ported so making them more difficult to place in my modest listening room (actually modest really means small) which is why they picked them in the beginning.

Top of their upgrade list is the Hegel H190, from their point of view it will take what ever I want to change in the future without blinking, it has the oomph to drive just about any speaker and has a first rate DAC if I want to expand my digital listening, only a phono stage is required to get my TT up and running.

They partner the 7's with Hegel regularly and don't have any issues, although they have suggested that if I really want to splash out then I could do worse than look at an Accuphase E280 apparently that has got the 7's really singing in a few recent installs.

But I do think that there is something in @twinkletoes comment and something that I am going to explore in the coming weeks.

And there was I ready to put an offer in for your ATC's

All jesting aside the only negatives I've heard about ATC speakers is they're not too good at low level listening, they need a bit of volume to get going, other than that many seem to adore them. There are many sealed-box speakers out there, I have a set and they are ridiculously close to the front wall yet sound sublime to my ears and definitely don't need a sub. Agree with Gray's comments above about maybe trying another brand of speaker along the way to see if a different flavour is more to your liking.

From what I've heard Hegel seem to be the business but I've never been pro having a streamer and amp all in one case, much prefer separate boxes, the DAC is a bonus but I'd look elsewhere for a long term streaming solution. I did have a streamer once but when it fell off the firmware update calendar it became a redundant box. I have found PC's far better as a streamer as their eventual demise is slower.

These are only my opinions of course and you only spend your money when you hear the right sound for you. I know you don't intend to rush any stage of this, which is good, and look forward to hearing your views at points along your journey

 

[Oxfordian]

And there was I ready to put an offer in for your ATC's

All jesting aside the only negatives I've heard about ATC speakers is they're not too good at low level listening, they need a bit of volume to get going, other than that many seem to adore them. There are many sealed-box speakers out there, I have a set and they are ridiculously close to the front wall yet sound sublime to my ears and definitely don't need a sub. Agree with Gray's comments above about maybe trying another brand of speaker along the way to see if a different flavour is more to your liking.

From what I've heard Hegel seem to be the business but I've never been pro having a streamer and amp all in one case, much prefer separate boxes, the DAC is a bonus but I'd look elsewhere for a long term streaming solution. I did have a streamer once but when it fell off the firmware update calendar it became a redundant box. I have found PC's far better as a streamer as their eventual demise is slower.

These are only my opinions of course and you only spend your money when you hear the right sound for you. I know you don't intend to rush any stage of this, which is good, and look forward to hearing your views at points along your journey

I agree on the 7’s needing some volume, and the H95 being the ’entry’ level Hegel may be a touch shy of what is needed to drive and control the 7’s to get the best out of them, hence looking at a H190.

But the argument about changing the speakers is an equally valid one and one I need to investigate.

In addition I have to consider that I my aim overall is to get more out of those vinyl grooves, I really enjoy the whole vinyl experience so my goal is to end up with a system that is vinyl focused with the ability to play digital formats when and if I want to.

As for streaming, well at the moment the only streaming I do is when I have a cold.

I cannot say that streaming is a source that I enjoy, it isn’t, there is nothing to lure me into spending money on any form of streaming device, there’s no physical interaction, walk up press a button or two, select who you want and sit down, hell from what my son tells me he asks his smart speaker to play…. and it does. Sorry streaming fans but I like the physical handling of the medium.

This thread came together as my plan to upgrade cartridge, phono stage then turntable was paused when my friendly store said whoa!!!!, if you go that way you’ll have a bottle neck, upgrade the amp first. So this is where we are, discussing the merits of more upmarket amplification and people having alternative viewpoints. And, I have to say it’s been pretty damn enlightening.

 

[SallyB]

I agree on the 7’s needing some volume, and the H95 being the ’entry’ level Hegel may be a touch shy of what is needed to drive and control the 7’s to get the best out of them, hence looking at a H190.

But the argument about changing the speakers is an equally valid one and one I need to investigate.

In addition I have to consider that I my aim overall is to get more out of those vinyl grooves, I really enjoy the whole vinyl experience so my goal is to end up with a system that is vinyl focused with the ability to play digital formats when and if I want to.

As for streaming, well at the moment the only streaming I do is when I have a cold.

I cannot say that streaming is a source that I enjoy, it isn’t, there is nothing to lure me into spending money on any form of streaming device, there’s no physical interaction, walk up press a button or two, select who you want and sit down, hell from what my son tells me he asks his smart speaker to play…. and it does. Sorry streaming fans but I like the physical handling of the medium.

This thread came together as my plan to upgrade cartridge, phono stage then turntable was paused when my friendly store said whoa!!!!, if you go that way you’ll have a bottle neck, upgrade the amp first. So this is where we are, discussing the merits of more upmarket amplification and people having alternative viewpoints. And, I have to say it’s been pretty damn enlightening.

Sounds like I may be a graduate of the same Hifi store as you and have a Hegel 190. Great amp, puts loads of oomph and energy into music if that’s what you want…Only thing is I can rarely play it at the volumes my speakers need to really open out!😀

Enjoy your journey!

 

[Oxfordian]

Sounds like I may be a graduate of the same Hifi store as you and have a Hegel 190. Great amp, puts loads of oomph and energy into music if that’s what you want…Only thing is I can rarely play it at the volumes my speakers need to really open out!😀

Enjoy your journey!

Volume issues, hmmm yes, I have to agree there are always factors to consider when pressing the '+' button on the remote to ease that volume up.

Don't have a 190, yet, just going to borrow one to test it out, hopefully the neighbours won't complain too much

Thanks for getting involved

 

[WayneKerr]

In addition I have to consider that I my aim overall is to get more out of those vinyl grooves, I really enjoy the whole vinyl experience so my goal is to end up with a system that is vinyl focused with the ability to play digital formats when and if I want to.

This thread came together as my plan to upgrade cartridge, phono stage then turntable was paused when my friendly store said whoa!!!!, if you go that way you’ll have a bottle neck, upgrade the amp first. So this is where we are, discussing the merits of more upmarket amplification and people having alternative viewpoints. And, I have to say it’s been pretty damn enlightening.

And this is the crux of the matter. Chasing an improvement is expensive and can possibly yield a significant yet still very small change in the overall sound. The decision is whether spending so much is actually worth it for the very small gains.

My own experience was four times the cost of my previous kit and yes I did hear an improvement but it definitely did not sound four times better, but I'm content with what I have now. It's all about killing those nagging doubts and the upgraditis bug.

You are best placed to decide what sounds right and acceptable to you

 

[plastic penguin]

And this is the crux of the matter. Chasing an improvement is expensive and can possibly yield a significant yet still very small change in the overall sound. The decision is whether spending so much is actually worth it for the very small gains.

My own experience was four times the cost of my previous kit and yes I did hear an improvement but it definitely did not sound four times better, but I'm content with what I have now. It's all about killing those nagging doubts and the upgraditis bug.

You are best placed to decide what sounds right and acceptable to you

I've experienced the same. I wouldn't say the Leema is three times better than the A65+. Likewise with all my sources. It is quite incremental, incl the Dalis over the PMCs.