Source first still important, dumbed down hifi, or is there a problem with your system?

[davedotco]

This thread is getting a bit snippy, cant really understnd why.

Most of the 'evidence' presented is anecdotal, you can choose whether to believe it or not, it is not irrefutable.

Personally I am more inclined to gave more weight to the views of experienced and knowledgeable posters who explain what they have done, how they have done it and what the results are.

I give rather less creedence to the views of those who haven't a clue what they are doing, describe comparitive demonstrations where there are half a dozen or more variables then acuse you of being deaf if you don't agree with them.

I know that is now PC to give all opinions equal consideration but, quite frankly, that is total garbage. Some peoples views are simply not worth the bandwith they use up.

 

[Overdose]

I know that is now PC to give all opinions equal consideration but, quite frankly, that is total garbage. Some peoples views are simply not worth the bandwith they use up.

So, virtual oxygen thieves then?

 

[davedotco]

I know that is now PC to give all opinions equal consideration but, quite frankly, that is total garbage. Some peoples views are simply not worth the bandwith they use up.

So, virtual oxygen thieves then?

Not a phrase I would use....... 8)

They might be nice to animals or old ladies or something.

 

[tonky]

Snippy - i agree - always the same people too - I wonder what Ken Rockwell would think?

tonky

 

[tonky]

Snippy - i agree - always the same people too - I wonder what Ken Rockwell would think?

tonky

 

[Overdose]

Snippy - i agree - always the same people too - I wonder what Ken Rockwell would think?

tonky

He'd probably think twice.

 

[spiny norman]

I wonder what Ken Rockwell would think?

That there might be money in this somewhere?

 

[BigH]

Snippy - i agree - always the same people too - I wonder what Ken Rockwell would think?

tonky

He would think about his growing family.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Ah, I see.

So you don't actually know what sort of file you are listening to or at what bit rate it was created?

Nice one.

At least I know how to get a file to an ipad, which you don't seem to!

Was at work last night and a bit hurried. I used AAC 320 & compared to lossless and CD.

Have you tried ripping CDs at different rates then playing them back? You seem curiously reluctant to do so, od.

 

[Overdose]

The iPad file is a file on your iPad, it's compressed, that's all I know.

...and that statement is all anyone needs to know when reading your opinions on the pros and cons of digital audio.



I'm out, getting dizzy with all this going round and round.

 

[John Duncan]

This thread is getting a bit snippy, cant really understnd why.

Some peoples views are simply not worth the bandwith they use up.

 

[steve_1979]

Was at work last night and a bit hurried. I used AAC 320 & compared to lossless and CD.

I'm surprised that you'd be able to hear a difference between 320kbps AAC and lossless ALAC files and suspect that there may have been other variables present during your comparison.

How precisely did you compare them and exactly what equipment was you using? By this I mean was it the analogue output from the iPad, or a digital output via USB to an external DAC, sent wirelessly to a AEX, what version of AEX was it, was the CD played in a HiFi CD player with its own DAC, did both audio files get converted by the same DAC, was it a blind comparison or did you know which one you were listening to?

Depending on what methodology you used there could potentially be several other variables which could have accounted for the difference in sound between the AAC files and the lossless ALAC files.

 

[John Duncan]

Was at work last night and a bit hurried. I used AAC 320 & compared to lossless and CD.

I'm surprised that you'd be able to hear a difference between 320kbps AAC and lossless ALAC files and suspect that there may have been other variables present during your comparison.

How precisely did you compare them and exactly what equipment was you using? By this I mean was it the analogue output from the iPad, or a digital output via USB to an external DAC, sent wirelessly to a AEX, what version of AEX was it, was the CD played in a HiFi CD player with its own DAC, did both audio files get converted by the same DAC, was it a blind comparison or did you know which one you were listening to?

Depending on what methodology you used there could potentially be several other variables which could have accounted for the difference in sound between the AAC files and the lossless ALAC files.

But all DACs and all means of digital transport sound the same don't they...?

 

[steve_1979]

But all DACs and all means of digital transport sound the same don't they...?

All modern properly implemented DAC's should sound the same and there's no need for a properly implemented DAC to cost more than a couple of hundred pounds.

However not all DAC's have been properly implemented and some of them also generate RF interference which will effect some amplifiers. Some amplifiers are relatively immune to this RF interference where others are more susceptible to it .

 

[John Duncan]

But all DACs and all means of digital transport sound the same don't they...?

All modern properly implemented DAC's should sound the same and there's no need for a properly implemented DAC to cost more than a couple of hundred pounds.

However not all DAC's have been properly implemented and some of them also generate RF interference which will effect some amplifiers. Some amplifiers are relatively immune to this RF interference where others are more susceptible to it .

And what evidence do you have for this assertion (preferably from an engineer who isn't trying to sell you something)?

 

[steve_1979]

And what evidence do you have for this assertion (preferably from an engineer who isn't trying to sell you something)?

There are plenty of people on the internet who have measured DAC's to find out how much distortion they produce and properly implemented ones only introduce a vanishingly small amount of distortion which is well below the levels which are detectable by the human ear.

I know Ken Rockwell is a popular chap on here so here's two examples that he has measured:

http://kenrockwell.com/audio/benchmark/dac1-hdr.htm

http://kenrockwell.com/audio/cambridge/dacmagic-plus.htm

Provided it's a modern DAC which has been properly implemented and it doesn't produce an excessive amount of RF interference and is outputting its analogue signal to an amplifier which is relatively immune to RF interference then yes these DAC's will all sound the same because there won't be enough distortion introduced to make them sound any different to each other.

 

[John Duncan]

Provided it's a modern DAC which has been properly implemented and it doesn't produce an excessive amount of RF interference and is outputting its analogue signal to an amplifier which is relatively immune to RF interference

It was more this bit I was interested in. How did you come to this conclusion?

Oh, and did you see the links to buy at the bottom of each of those reviews (which is how Ken supports his growing family)...?

 

[fr0g]

And what evidence do you have for this assertion (preferably from an engineer who isn't trying to sell you something)?

There are plenty of people on the internet who have measured DAC's to find out how much distortion they produce and properly implemented ones only introduce a vanishingly small amount of distortion which is well below the levels which are detectable by the human ear.

I know Ken Rockwell is a popular chap on here so here's two examples that he has measured:

http://kenrockwell.com/audio/benchmark/dac1-hdr.htm

http://kenrockwell.com/audio/cambridge/dacmagic-plus.htm

Provided it's a modern DAC which has been properly implemented and it doesn't produce an excessive amount of RF interference and is outputting its analogue signal to an amplifier which is relatively immune to RF interference then yes these DAC's will all sound the same because there won't be enough distortion introduced to make them sound any different to each other.

But what have the Romans ever done for us?

 

[steve_1979]

Provided it's a modern DAC which has been properly implemented and it doesn't produce an excessive amount of RF interference and is outputting its analogue signal to an amplifier which is relatively immune to RF interference

It was more this bit I was interested in. How did you come to this conclusion?

That's what I've read from other people who are more knowledgeable than myself on the subject (Sound On Sound, Ashley James etc). I also think that some of the more knowledgable members on this forum like AEJim from Acoustic Energy, davedotco, and andyjm have all said that if an amplifier responds badly to RF interferance this can sometimes effect the sound too.

Oh, and did you see the links to buy at the bottom of each of those reviews (which is how Ken supports his growing family)...?

That's a good idea for earning a bit of extra money IMO and it doesn't make his measurements any less valid.

 

[spiny norman]

You couldn't make it up! :rofl:

 

[CnoEvil]

You couldn't make it up! :rofl:

I suspect you could, you know! :shifty:

 

[matthewpiano]

One thing is for sure, life was a lot simpler and there was less to argue about, when you just put the CD on the drawer, closed it and pressed play. These circular arguments never go anywhere.

 

[CnoEvil]

One thing is for sure, life was a lot simpler and there was less to argue about, when you just put the CD on the drawer, closed it and pressed play. These circular arguments never go anywhere.

That raises an interesting question ie. If internet forums had existed in the 80s and 90s, would there have been the same amount of arguing, and if so, what would it have been about. I think a forum full to the brim of male egos, is a recipe for friction.

Contentious issues might have been - CD vs Vinyl; Whether tapes were going to die out; British vs Japenese sound quality; Valves vs SS; Sealed vs Ported speakers; Whether the LP12 was king of the TTs; and Cables, let's not forget cables.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

That's what I've read from other people who are more knowledgeable than myself on the subject (Sound On Sound, Ashley James etc). I also think that some of the more knowledgable members on this forum like AEJim from Acoustic Energy, davedotco, and andyjm have all said that if an amplifier responds badly to RF interferance this can sometimes effect the sound too.

Ashley James! His strength is sales and marketing. You'd be way more knowledgeable than him, Steve. Remember his hilarious explanation about why you had to turn on and off external sources first because it did something Martin had explained but which he didn't understand?

Try comparing DACs and see what you think, but in a good system, mind. If designs are so bad they allow distortion, then surely the designers won't be in a job for very long.

 

[the record spot]

Some of Linn's 24bit music is mastered differently to the MP3/CD version. That's the difference that you're hearing.

I know that's your opinion, but for me, the jury is still out. I seldom see things in black and white.

Cno, when you're comparing apples with oranges (i.e. two different masterings on two different meidums) then the jury's not likely to have been called up in the first place. Only when you've got the two together - same mastering, different bitrate - can you compare. Anything else is just time wasted.