Roon v1.5

[newlash09]

Extremely happy that you have it all mostly sorted out now. 🙂

And your success with ripping cd's and roon, seems to have brought out lots of attention 🙂

Good idea on insider9's part to start this awesome thread.

Thanks Newlash. Glad you're finding it helpful 🙂

Insider 9 🙂

 

[ellisdj]

At all budgets. But really depends on the dac you end up with and it's inputs.

I for one, was looking at end points with aes ebu output and not usb outputs to get off the USB cleaner + re clocker route. And below are my options :

Ambre by metrum acoustics - 995 pounds

Audio alchemy dmp-1 + ps5 power supply - 1495+600 = 2095 usd

Bricasti model 5 = 2400 usd

Dcs network bridge = 4500 usd

But if you were to go directly from your laptop to dac :

Berkley alpha usb = 1895 usd

Mutec mc3+ = 1030 usd

The mutec is a better buy 🙂

The mutec is a clock not a dac it goes before the dac.
You can even buy a clock for the clock to go before the dac 🙂

 

[cheeseboy]

you only really need an external clock if you are running multiple units that need to be in sync. They were developed for studio use. That was the point of them. Otherwise any remotely half decently designed async dac will be absolutely fine.

 

[ellisdj]

most of the best sounding sources use external clocks so there are benefits to them outside the studio use alone mentioned.

It will depend on how someone wants to tie things together before the dac.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Ok got some questions

I have setup the Oppo to play though Roon again it shows the iTunes library on my Tv screen but not the flac library but if I use the Roon on my iPad it will connect with the Oppo and playback the flac library but can’t use the Tv in the mix because I have to unplug my hdmi cable or I get sound though my tv or Av which I do not want so I unplug the hdmi cable and turn the tv off. .

My questions are what’s MQA , DSD , and how do I know what the Oppo is outputting in regards of file format on a sound quality front as I have no idea is the Oppo up sampling or down sampling or is Roon doing this job and then the Oppo Dac is processing what Roon’s sending ?

because I’ve got to be honest here I can’t tell the difference between airplay and what ever the Oppo is meant to be doing

 

[newlash09]

At all budgets. But really depends on the dac you end up with and it's inputs.

I for one, was looking at end points with aes ebu output and not usb outputs to get off the USB cleaner + re clocker route. And below are my options :

Ambre by metrum acoustics - 995 pounds

Audio alchemy dmp-1 + ps5 power supply - 1495+600 = 2095 usd

Bricasti model 5 = 2400 usd

Dcs network bridge = 4500 usd

But if you were to go directly from your laptop to dac :

Berkley alpha usb = 1895 usd

Mutec mc3+ = 1030 usd

The mutec is a better buy 🙂

The mutec is a clock not a dac it goes before the dac.
You can even buy a clock for the clock to go before the dac 🙂

Is a reclocker + usb cleaner ( galvanic isolator), cum an external clock for some dacs. A lot of folks seem to be using them from usb out on their laptops. Hence I suggested the same for similar use, if blacksabbath wanted to connect his laptop directly to his new dac , instead of a roon end point. The berkley alpha usb is also being used from laptop usb.

Ideally the best combination seems to be a roon end point renderer + mutec mc3+.....something like sonore micro rendu >> mutec mc3+ >> dac.

Above is only for snake oil believers...which includes me 🙂

 

[newlash09]

Ok got some questions 

I have setup the Oppo to play though Roon again it shows the iTunes library on my Tv screen but not the flac library but if I use the Roon on my iPad it will connect with the Oppo and playback the flac library but can’t use the Tv in the mix because I have to unplug my hdmi cable or I get sound though my tv or Av which I do not want so I unplug the hdmi cable and turn the tv off. .

My questions are what’s MQA , DSD , and how do I know what the Oppo is outputting in regards of file format on a sound quality front as I have no idea is the Oppo up sampling or down sampling or is Roon doing this job and then the Oppo Dac is processing what Roon’s sending  ?

because I’ve got to be honest here I can’t tell the difference between airplay and what ever the Oppo is meant to be doing 

The upsampling and conversion is done by roon. And output format from roon can be set by you. There should be a source setting somewhere, that insider9 had posted in the past. It clearly shows your audio path that the roon is outputting. Maybe insider9 can help you here when he is back online .

 

[ellisdj]

I have just seen a comment and it reminded me of what people were doing when the mc3+ usb came out. they were daisy chaining them in series to apparently improve the audio.

That would be interesting to try as would the REF10 Master clock

 

[newlash09]

I have just seen a comment and it reminded me of what people were doing when the mc3+ usb came out. they were daisy chaining them in series to apparently improve the audio.

That would be interesting to try as would the REF10 Master clock

My planned implementation too. All the roon end points I had mentioned above have aes ebu outs. So planning to daisy chain that to the mutec mc3+ aes ebu. And aes ebu out to the devialet.

 

[cheeseboy]

most of the best sounding sources use external clocks so there are benefits to them outside the studio use alone mentioned.

It will depend on how someone wants to tie things together before the dac.

that's just a physical location thing, they could quite easily put the clock in the box, but then they couldn't charge as much 😉 External clocks, as I said, were originally brought out to tie up multiple sources together so they all run on the same clock, which is needed in a recording studio. It make no sense to need an external clock otherwise, apart from to make money. If anybody purchases a dac that requires an external clock, then you have to immediately question the quality of the dac unit as people like hifime can produce an async dac with a perfectly good clock for less than $60.

 

[cheeseboy]

My questions are what’s MQA , DSD...

just a quick one for you, I wouldn't worry too much about DSD. there are very few true DSD recordings out there, most are converted from PCM, so it's kind of a moot point and nothing to worry about.

MQA was the next big thing, but in reality the makers have not actually been able to prove it does what it says it does, and overall it's just another way to tie up a form of DRM. It was another one of those solutions to a problem that didn't exist.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

My questions are what’s MQA , DSD...

just a quick one for you, I wouldn't worry too much about DSD. there are very few true DSD recordings out there, most are converted from PCM, so it's kind of a moot point and nothing to worry about.

MQA was the next big thing, but in reality the makers have not actually been able to prove it does what it says it does, and overall it's just another way to tie up a form of DRM. It was another one of those solutions to a problem that didn't exist.

So when we get down to it really all your really getting red book cd quality but without the noise of a CD player not that I can hear noise from my CD player .

So all theses fancy names are just to make you think your getting better is that right ?

 

[Paulq]

I just started the 14-day trial to see what all the fuss is about. I think I have got to grips with the basics but, again, am a little underwhelmed as I find Audirvana much easier to use and every bit as feature rich for my intended use.

With regards to MQA I have played an MQA track from Tidal, via Roon and my MQA enabled Headphone amp. No blue light to indicate that MQA is enabled.

I repeat the process via the Tidal (Mac) desktop app and Audirvana and both illuminate the MQA light on the device.

Is there a specific setting within Roon to enable MQA?

Thanks.

 

[ellisdj]

most of the best sounding sources use external clocks so there are benefits to them outside the studio use alone mentioned.

It will depend on how someone wants to tie things together before the dac.

that's just a physical location thing, they could quite easily put the clock in the box, but then they couldn't charge as much 😉 External clocks, as I said, were originally brought out to tie up multiple sources together so they all run on the same clock, which is needed in a recording studio. It make no sense to need an external clock otherwise, apart from to make money. If anybody purchases a dac that requires an external clock, then you have to immediately question the quality of the dac unit as people like hifime can produce an async dac with a perfectly good clock for less than $60.

Like everything we argue about - a lot of people that try upgraded and improved clocks at this stage of the digital chain report significant improvements.

Mutec are a studio orientated company and they have made the REF10 to improve on their range of products, which already function perfectlty but can in their opinion sound better still with a better clock. I am keen to try one

Having the clock near the dac makes a lot of sense - however I have been using all manner of products with different quality clocks and it seems to matter everywhere there is one how good it is. Its very interesting

 

[cheeseboy]

Like everything we argue about - a lot of people that try upgraded and improved clocks at this stage of the digital chain report significant improvements.

A lot of people try magic pebbles and report a difference. Doesn't mean that it's making any difference. How many of these said people did the changes under blind testing conditions I wonder? 😉 😀

Mutec are a studio orientated company and they have made the REF10 to improve on their range of products, which already function perfectlty but can in their opinion sound better still with a better clock. I am keen to try one

yep, I've used mutec products in the studio before, they are very good, but then again I was using them as a master clock source, nothing more. I see as time goes on they've jumped on the audiophile bandwagon - I don't blame them, there's money to be made. Either way, I'd reccomend buying from them over something like the jitterbug which has been proven to do the opposite of what it claims to do for example. (shh, I'm actually agreeing with you, don't faint 😉 )

Having the clock near the dac makes a lot of sense - however I have been using all manner of products with different quality clocks and it seems to matter everywhere there is one how good it is. Its very interesting

again, try doing some blind testing and see if the differences are still there. I'll bet you 5p they aren't 🙂 (i'm skint at the moment ok 🙂 ) But yes, the clock nearest to the dac makes most sense in a playback chain such as this.

 

[cheeseboy]

So when we get down to it really all your really getting red book cd quality but without the noise of a CD player not that I can hear noise from my CD player .

So all theses fancy names are just to make you think your getting better is that right ?

Like with most of these things in audio, so much relies on the mixing and mastering, rather than the format. There's still quite a lot of so called high res sites who are just upsampling 16bit recordings to 24 bit and charging more for them. Given some of these records were only recorded in 16 bit, so there are only 16 bit masters lying around, for them to suddenly appear as high-res 24 should tell you all you need to know.

 

[andyjm]

most of the best sounding sources use external clocks so there are benefits to them outside the studio use alone mentioned.

It will depend on how someone wants to tie things together before the dac.

that's just a physical location thing, they could quite easily put the clock in the box, but then they couldn't charge as much 😉 External clocks, as I said, were originally brought out to tie up multiple sources together so they all run on the same clock, which is needed in a recording studio. It make no sense to need an external clock otherwise, apart from to make money. If anybody purchases a dac that requires an external clock, then you have to immediately question the quality of the dac unit as people like hifime can produce an async dac with a perfectly good clock for less than $60.

Just to be clear, an external clock (absent studio use with a master clock) is a Bad Idea. If you want a really low jitter, high accuracy clock it needs to be mounted on the circuit board right next to the D2A chip - not dangling on a bit of wire in another box.

...and as for AES/EBU standard, its just S/PDIF over a balanced connection, with all the problems of S/PDIF.

The best by far is a properly implemented async USB link (with galvanic isolation if you can manage it).

 

[ellisdj]

DCS manage the external clock just fine

 

[andyjm]

DCS manage the external clock just fine

Lots of words, and not a single measurement to be seen.

Unless dCS have rewritten the way pulses move along a conductor, they really should have put the clock right next to the D2A chip on the DAC circuit board. I am afraid I can't alter the basics of engineering to suit the marketing.

 

[BigH]

Here is a Mutec review if anyone is interested: https://andreweverard.com/2016/07/12/review-mutec-mc-3-usb-clocking-the-best-way-to-improve-your-digital-audio/

 

[andyjm]

Ok.

I get it that most on here don't understand jitter, or why it might matter.

I also get that the marketing used by many hifi companies and the associated reviews in magazines by reviewers who understand very little about digital audio can be highly compelling.

One of the major contributors to jitter is pulse shape deformation, and that gets worse with distance the pulse has to travel. A 'clock in a box' will ALWAYS be worse than the same clock mounted next to the D2A chip.

 

[insider9]

I just started the 14-day trial to see what all the fuss is about.  I think I have got to grips with the basics but, again, am a little underwhelmed as I find Audirvana much easier to use and every bit as feature rich for my intended use.

With regards to MQA I have played an MQA track from Tidal, via Roon and my MQA enabled Headphone amp.  No blue light to indicate that MQA is enabled.

I repeat the process via the Tidal (Mac) desktop app and Audirvana and both illuminate the MQA light on the device.

Is there a specific setting within Roon to enable MQA?

Thanks.

It will be far easier to direct you over here as I'd not only double up but likely confuse you 🙂

Link

 

[insider9]

Ok got some questions 

I have setup the Oppo to play though Roon again it shows the iTunes library on my Tv screen but not the flac library but if I use the Roon on my iPad it will connect with the Oppo and playback the flac library but can’t use the Tv in the mix because I have to unplug my hdmi cable or I get sound though my tv or Av which I do not want so I unplug the hdmi cable and turn the tv off. .

My questions are what’s MQA , DSD , and how do I know what the Oppo is outputting in regards of file format on a sound quality front as I have no idea is the Oppo up sampling or down sampling or is Roon doing this job and then the Oppo Dac is processing what Roon’s sending  ?

because I’ve got to be honest here I can’t tell the difference between airplay and what ever the Oppo is meant to be doing 

First of it looks like you need to configure Oppon to output stereo over analogue output. This way there will be no need for you to disconnect the TV when you want to use it.

As to what's being output look at signal path in Roon. It will show you every step. Depending on what material you're playing you can see different colour dots on iPad next to track name. This is during playback only as it will depend on the track itself.

 

[insider9]

Airplay will be resampled to 48kHz. 

What is doing the resampling in this case?  Roon or the Yamaha?  Are you thinking of the audio output from an appletv?

Roon handles resampling and sends all Airplay at 48kHz.

At least this is my experience with it.

Edit However this is device dependent and it can be 44.1. In case of my Hegel Rost its 48.

Are you sure?  At first I wondered if your Rost’s dac runs at a multiple of 48 but the Roon knowledge base states the same as wiki - Airplay is 16/44.1 https://kb.roonlabs.com/AirPlay_Setup

Not trying to nitpick, just interested.  Although it might explain why you’ve been less than impressed with Airplay if you have a lot of src going on.

I'll be honest I'm not sure where I got the 48 sampling rate. It's possible this is what Yamaha WXC-50 with iPad would show. But I'm not even sure about that.

Having checked it Roon sends 44.1 to Rost via Airplay. To make my confusion even worse 🙂 all Rost shows is Network / Airplay so no indication of sampling rate and I couldn't have seen it in the amp...

Was never my intention to spread misinformation, so I hold my hands up. Apologies chaps.

 

[insider9]

Airplay will be resampled to 48kHz. 

What is doing the resampling in this case?  Roon or the Yamaha?  Are you thinking of the audio output from an appletv?

Roon handles resampling and sends all Airplay at 44.1kHz.

Edit
This post has been edited to correct my earlier mistake, apologies!