passive set up v active set up

[steve_1979]

The SB drivers are good value with good motors but there is nothing unique about them.

Hi h.g. I didn't know you were a member here too.

Do you know of any other 6.5" mid/bass drivers that can go upto 4kHz before they start to go into cone breakup?

Also have you ever heard the DM10s for yourself?

 

[Pedro2]

Active v passive sound quality test to be conducted today The results to follow after.

The main question that needs answering is: can set up costing 3 - 4 times cheaper beat my current system for sound quality. If it can then by how much? And also if it is much better, am i ready to make some hard choices - go for the best sound and ignore any brand attachements?

I'll either be building passive k100 kits (scm 100 clones) or going active.

Sound quality being the most important thing above all else.

I hope you will all enjoy the results that follow over next few days

One of the many interesting features of this post is how the relatively 'cheap' AVI actives compare with the more costly passive ATC/Hegel kit. As an owner of a Linn streamer, I've always had a passing interest in their Aktiv kit but never bothered to check it out as the costs just spiral upwards (see the Linn website). What doesn't appear to be in any doubt, however, is that Linn consider the active route as the natural progression with the digital signal preserved as far down the line as possible. The AVIs must be considered great value for money in comparison (I am only going on Andrew's findings here as I've not heard them myself). I must scratch this active itch at some point.......

 

[Andrewjvt]

Active v passive sound quality test to be conducted today The results to follow after.

The main question that needs answering is: can set up costing 3 - 4 times cheaper beat my current system for sound quality. If it can then by how much? And also if it is much better, am i ready to make some hard choices - go for the best sound and ignore any brand attachements?

I'll either be building passive k100 kits (scm 100 clones) or going active.

Sound quality being the most important thing above all else.

I hope you will all enjoy the results that follow over next few days

One of the many interesting features of this post is how the relatively 'cheap' AVI actives compare with the more costly passive ATC/Hegel kit. As an owner of a Linn streamer, I've always had a passing interest in their Aktiv kit but never bothered to check it out as the costs just spiral upwards (see the Linn website). What doesn't appear to be in any doubt, however, is that Linn consider the active route as the natural progression with the digital signal preserved as far down the line as possible. The AVIs must be considered great value for money in comparison (I am only going on Andrew's findings here as I've not heard them myself). I must scratch this active itch at some point.......

Arrange a listen youd be supprised but think you already have very good sound
As it is.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Very excited
Lindsayt is bringing these
EV Sentry iii

 

[nopiano]

Very excited Lindsayt is bringing these EV Sentry iii

I think OMG is the appropriate reaction! Wow.

 

[steve_1979]

EV Sentry iii

Weren't they originally used as cinema and general PA speakers in the early 1970's?

 

[Andrewjvt]

EV Sentry iii

Weren't they originally used as cinema and general PA speakers in the early 1970's?

 

About them although i saw the images
They should sound very big

 

[steve_1979]

EV Sentry iii

Weren't they originally used as cinema and general PA speakers in the early 1970's?

About them although i saw the images They should sound very big

Your wife is going to think you've lost the plot when these guys turn up at your door with a pair of fifty year old 70kg cinema speakers the size of washing machines.

 

[Andrewjvt]

EV Sentry iii

Weren't they originally used as cinema and general PA speakers in the early 1970's?

 

About them although i saw the images They should sound very big

Your wife is going to think you've lost the plot when these guys turn up at your door with a pair of fifty year old 70kg cinema speakers the size of washing machines.

 

 

Yes she will

 

[lindsayt]

EV Sentry iii

Weren't they originally used as cinema and general PA speakers in the early 1970's?

So, Steve, in your opinion, does that make it more or less likely that they will sound worse overall than the other speakers at this bake-off?

 

[thewinelake.]

Wow. How big is the room? Are these being driven in triamped mode by 3 x Crown dc300?

 

[davedotco]

EV Sentry iii

Weren't they originally used as cinema and general PA speakers in the early 1970's?

About them although i saw the images They should sound very big

Your wife is going to think you've lost the plot when these guys turn up at your door with a pair of fifty year old 70kg cinema speakers the size of washing machines.

These speakers were designed for home use but derived from systems developed for use in the cinema during the 30s, 40s and 50s.

The active components wre often the same, there was some variation in the bass cones as the Sentry enclosures, like all similar designs for the home, were not full size horns.

The classic hi-fi speaker of this era was fairly large and although initially using horn loading in the bass, see the Klipschorn or JBL Hartsfield, the move to smaller enclosures was pressing, particularly as the advent of stereo required the accomodation of two speakers.

Generally speaking this was achieved by not horn loading the bass driver, but by using a smaller ported enclosure in the 5 - 9 cubic ft range.

The big hi-frequency horns used in the cinema were replaced by smaller domesticated units and the classic two way 'bin and horn' cinema setup became the hi-fi speaker of the day.

All the (US) manufacturers products had their strengths and weaknesses, Sentry 3s were not considered as 'hi-end' as some competitors but then they were not that expensive. That said, if they were to be built today, I would expect them to retail around the £5k mark.

 

[steve_1979]

So, Steve, in your opinion, does that make it more or less likely that they will sound worse overall than the other speakers at this bake-off?

I've never heard them so this is only a guess, but I'd expect them to have more bass but less clarity and a less focused stereo image.

TBH I've now lost interest in all of the other speakers there. I just want to know what everyone else (especially Andrew's wife) thinks of your EVs.

 

[hg]

[Do you know of any other 6.5" mid/bass drivers that can go upto 4kHz before they start to go into cone breakup?

Most reasonably well designed metal drivers although drivers lose their rigid body motion well below the peak resonance frequency. If you look at the paper cone from the top of the SB Acoustics range rather than the one from the standard range you will see the effect of the resonance has been largely eliminated.

When judging the performance of drivers a smooth response is usually to be preferred over a flatter one with wiggles because a smooth response is straightforward to make flat in the crossover whereas a wiggly one is more problematic.

If the driver has a stiff cone with lowish levels of damping it will have significant resonance peaks and care will be needed to avoid driving them because we tend to be sensitive to hearing resonances. A crossover would conventionally use a notch filter to remove resonance peaks rather than a very steep slope for the reason mentioned above.

If the design is a high fidelity one with stiff cones then the crossover would tend to be placed at two octaves or more below the resonance peak with a fairly steep slope like 4th order. The reason for this is that the 3rd harmonic of the motor will drive the cone resonances at higher SPLs (distortion levels rise with SPL), a notch filter will do nothing to control this and so the driver output needs to be significantly reduced at a third of the resonant frequency by the choice of crossover frequency and slope. This tends to be impractical when working with the large compromises in 2 way designs which are likely to be better off using cones without significant resonant peaks but it can get high performance from a 4 way using standard range drivers with metal cones.

Also have you ever heard the DM10s for yourself?

No. It is a budget driver configuration at a fairly high price and so of little interest. It is made in small quantities and sold directly to the public rather than through a network making the chances of coming across one in shops and shows remote. I have more of an interest in how the company goes about their business rather than the products themselves.

 

[lpv]

can you tell what's source you're going to bring please?

to all participants: did you choose your 2 tracks?

edited...

 

[richardw42]

I wonder if any of the participants have heard the track "Why So Serious ?" From The Dark Knight soundtrack, and do they think it's a good test piece ?

The first time I heard the low bass/ snuffling at around the 3:30 point on the ADM40s, it felt like all the air was being sucked out of the room. I'm more acclimatised now.

I can't recall ever listening to it on the DM10s though, although I'm sure a good sub will have this covered.

 

[Ashley James]

[Do you know of any other 6.5" mid/bass drivers that can go upto 4kHz before they start to go into cone breakup?

Most reasonably well designed metal drivers although drivers lose their rigid body motion well below the peak resonance frequency. If you look at the paper cone from the top of the SB Acoustics range rather than the one from the standard range you will see the effect of the resonance has been largely eliminated.

When judging the performance of drivers a smooth response is usually to be preferred over a flatter one with wiggles because a smooth response is straightforward to make flat in the crossover whereas a wiggly one is more problematic.

If the driver has a stiff cone with lowish levels of damping it will have significant resonance peaks and care will be needed to avoid driving them because we tend to be sensitive to hearing resonances. A crossover would conventionally use a notch filter to remove resonance peaks rather than a very steep slope for the reason mentioned above.

If the design is a high fidelity one with stiff cones then the crossover would tend to be placed at two octaves or more below the resonance peak with a fairly steep slope like 4th order. The reason for this is that the 3rd harmonic of the motor will drive the cone resonances at higher SPLs (distortion levels rise with SPL), a notch filter will do nothing to control this and so the driver output needs to be significantly reduced at a third of the resonant frequency by the choice of crossover frequency and slope. This tends to be impractical when working with the large compromises in 2 way designs which are likely to be better off using cones without significant resonant peaks but it can get high performance from a 4 way using standard range drivers with metal cones.

Also have you ever heard the DM10s for yourself?

No. It is a budget driver configuration at a fairly high price and so of little interest. It is made in small quantities and sold directly to the public rather than through a network making the chances of coming across one in shops and shows remote. I have more of an interest in how the company goes about their business rather than the products themselves.

Silly boy!

We don't use budget drivers and never have and if you know anything about you'd know that.

The bass ones in DM10s are about twice the going rate for top end OEM because they're specials. I've already explained all this an even posted pictures, but you probably have read the thread.

if LindsayT is using seventies EV, which was rendered obsolete by Kef and B & W in the late seventies early eighties, I can't see any point in comparing dated, Semi PA with modern high accuracy monitors because they won't be to his tastes. It'd be like a chap arguing that his elderly steam roller is better than his neighbour's Ford Focus.

 

[chebby]

It'd be like a chap arguing that his elderly steam roller is better than his neighbour's Ford Focus.

You get a far flatter result from a steam roller.

 

[steve_1979]

If you look at the paper cone from the top of the SB Acoustics range rather than the one from the standard range you will see the effect of the resonance has been largely eliminated.

That one from the top of the SB Acoustics range starts going into cone break up at around 2-3kHz. That's a fair bit below the 4kHz that the DM10 driver will reach to.

Can you provide a link to any 6.5" mid/bass driver that can reach to 4kHz before it starts going into cone break up?

No. It is a budget driver configuration at a fairly high price and so of little interest.

Not true. Sinar Baja told AVI that they will only make the DM10 drivers if they are bought a very large batch. SB said this because the DM10 drivers are so much more expensive than every other 6.5" driver they make and they don't think that they'd be able to sell them to anyone else because they're too expensive.

You should give the DM10s a listen before judging them. They really are rather special.

 

[thewinelake.]

I think it would make a fascinating comparison. It might result in more questions than answers, though.

 

[spiny norman]

Sinar Baja told AVI that they will only make the DM10 drivers if they are bought a very large batch.

So they didn't make them, then? ;-)

 

[Ashley James]

If you look at the paper cone from the top of the SB Acoustics range rather than the one from the standard range you will see the effect of the resonance has been largely eliminated.

That one starts going into break up at around 2-3kHz. That's a fair bit lower than the 4kHz on the DM10 driver.

No. It is a budget driver configuration at a fairly high price and so of little interest.

Not true.

SB told AVI that they will only make them if they are bought a large batch. SB said this because they are much more expensive than every other 6.5" driver that the make and that they wouldn't be able to sell them to anyone else because they are too expensive.

Because SB and all the other high end driver manufacturers are competing with each other, cost is a major constraint. Not only that but about half all OEM customers prefer metal, so standard drivers are designed to take not only paper or metal, but the lightest possible, without changing chassis etc. Even Scanspeak do this with the Illuminators.

With passive speakers, the upper end of bass driver's break up is masked by the crossover and the inevitable overlap HG sees as desirable. It isn't, it sounds bloody horrible. 8th order filters render it inaudible and the much better phase behaviour of our bass driver cone through the mid band makes for a dramatically improved image and seamless integration with the tweeter. All this needs to be heard, forum posturing doesn't irritates board members in my experience and few are interested in the technicalities anyway.

It turns out that out that by designing and manufacturing a special and heavier curvilinear cone made with a mixture of fibrous material to get the best possible damping, a complimentary rubber surround, spider and an enormous magnet structure, Sinar Baja were able to get us a further octave over other drivers without break up.

What all this means is that paper makes a better driver, but at substantial extra cost, which we're happy to pay.

 

[thewinelake.]

Have you tried flax (a la focal)?

 

[Ashley James]

Have you tried flax (a la focal)?

Most materials are for USP and to be as light as possible to keep expensive bit as small as possible and so as cheap as possible.

Cones like ours that are complex and heavier require their manufacturers to have their own pulp plant to be able to make them and they need a much larger magnet assembly to move the extra weight.

Weve never tried to compete, we've just done our own thing and avoided spending money on things that don't help the customer.

 

[Andrewjvt]

The original purpose of this thread was to see if an active speaker set up in this case Avi dm10 could sound as good or better than a passive set up (my hegel h360/atc)

The reason i chose avi dm10 qas because fellow forum member already owned atc scm11s, scm19s, and active scm40s (over 6grand)

Now he must have liked atc to upgrade so many times but ince he heard the dm10s it for him was an eye opener. He then got rid of the active scm40s in favour of dm10s.

Thats why i went to his place to see for myself.

NOW HERES MY POINT
in my opinion what makes a better speaker is NOT bass bloat/boom or thickness or fullness BUT

whats the more Neutral/clear/precise

Imo the avi clearly won that battle.

BUT now we have people on here attacking the owner of Avi and trying to tell him how bad his speakers are designed. Thats stupid

For all you with the design questions: how many successful speakers have you all designed? If the answer is none then please just shut up. Its only hifi and music not a war for nerds.

Edit. I almost forgot why are not you all contacting tannoy, wharfedale, kef, monitor audio and the like for putting in cheap cr appy £20 drivers in speakers costing over a grand?